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Problem coin interest?
joeykoins
Posts: 14,897 ✭✭✭✭✭
Hi guy's, unfortunately, I have one certified "problem coin" in my collection. "Cleaned ". Not by choice but by a recent result in a submission. The 1920s Mercury. You may have learned of my dilemma coin back when I received it? Anyway, I have this coin stuck in my batch of PCGS graded coins. I was wondering, why would someone voluntarily purchase a certified problem coin? I see these coins constantly on Ebay.Thanks guys! 
Cleaned
I myself, had a couple of offers!
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.0
Comments
I think some buy simply due to the reduced cost. It might be a coin that is otherwise financially unobtainable. And some people may be intending to either crack out and put into an album or work on the coin and resubmit hoping for a straight grade.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
I once shared table at show with Dealer who specializes in problem coins. His goal - get somewhere between cost and retail. From conversation he had won some Problem coins from online auctions which left him plenty of room. One piece, a slabbed key date dime he made $3600. Many buy problem Coins to crackout for their album.
Coin collecting is about filing the hole. Slabbing, holder, sticker game fairly recent / modern developments. While slabbing, stickering big deal in this forum this is not necessarily true for most coming in bourse room at a show. Many collect currency and world coins. Bullion dealers do a booming business. Others who acquire slabbed coins not spenders on the sticker game nor will pay the premium for stickered coins. A wholesaler set up to me had boxes of slabbed coins below bid. I always buy a few from him to retail in online store. Many would rather pick out some of these (or a roll of silver eagles from the bullion guy) than spend that money playing the crackout / cross / sticker game. Not a bad idea. Another dealers table crowded with buyers hopping on his 6 world coins for a dollar deal.
some people also just might not have a big problem with it. It's a 1920 S Merc, it looks good, it's still one of 13.8M ever made 100yrs ago. Some folks might not care that a cloth was taken to it too harshly, or that it was dipped too long, or whatever. It's still genuine. Also, every F12 coin out there has probably been through the washer or something along those lines, so the fact that PCGS/NGC make a distinction might just be viewed as a win for the collector who doesn't care.
Beyond that, I'll echo @TurtleCat - especially on keys/semi-keys, the authentication of the coin and decreased cost outweigh the word "details" on the slab if it saves them hundreds or thousands of dollars.
Many people collect coins....and many are not concerned about selling coins.... they keep them. I can validate that, since I do not sell, and have no intention of selling my collection. (Yes, I have sold bullion, and will sell some other gold coins). That coin may be very attractive to a collector who needs one and is not concerned about the 'cleaned' aspect. Cheers, RickO
Does it have (granted very, very minor) a clipped planchet? Check out between the L and I on the obverse and corresponding weakness in the opposite side of the obv. You may want to study that area to be sure.
A collector is best off completely staying away from 'problem' coins.
I have bought 'problems' in respected high grade holders without knowing. Sometimes it's tough to tell. I have bought raw problems because I missed something. Tuition.
Problem coins will almost always be a problem. They always become a bigger problem when you need to send them down the road.
Your 20-s dime looks pretty nice to me. Interesting.
I’ve had a handful of coins come back from PCGS NET graded. I generally sell them immediately. There is a market, but it’s pretty soft, unless you have a very rare coin. or variety. For me, there are way too many nice coins out there to have a clunker.
Dave
I see them all the time also and some people are asking regular full price as if it had no problems at all?? Beats the crap out of me as to why they think this way! I guess some people must buy them or they wouldn't list them for sale. I feel bad if I buy a coin and it comes back with a problem and I would not try to sell it to anybody!
Funny thing about problem coins - when people who make a living buying/selling coins are surprised when a coin comes back cleaned...was it that much of a problem to begin with?
Not saying everyone should buy them (I never have), but I sure can’t vouch for all my raw coins and say they’d come back straight graded (I think/hope they would) if a TPG got ahold of them.
**I was wondering, why would someone voluntarily purchase a certified problem coin? **
I own several early large cents that fit this, like a '93 Wreath, an 1804, and 1823 N-2. And a few raw ones that would genny grade if submitted.
For tough coins like these, if the eye appeal and the price isn't too bad, I will add them to my collection, knowing at least they are genuine. For more common 'type' coins, walkers, etc. - no, enough problem free examples exist at reasonable prices - no need to compromise with these.
I have a problem coin as well, for some weird reason I picked it up. I think its because of a cheaper price on it as well. who knows for sure
Been there ... done that.
People collect most anything ... good ... bad ... and junk.
Just remember---One man's junk is another man's trash.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
It never made sense for me to buy a common coin with any problem at all, it's so easy to find and afford a nice one.
For rare coins that are very difficult to find in any grade, and very (prohibitively) expensive when certified with a "problem-fee" straight grade opinion with any of the important characteristics showing, my choices, if I want (need) one for my set might be
Or
I get that most opt for 1. while some opt for 2. It takes a certain kind of collector to understand and embrace No. 3. the kind that gets to own and enjoy examining the very rare coin instead of an empty space or slick featureless disk.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Here is a perfect example of option #3 (damaged - tooled yet still $300,000)
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/25538477
I've always felt that there is no such thing as a 'bad' coin.....Probably just a 'bad' price....
Love that '33 !
I avoid problems like the plague. I don't need problems in my collection or real life. I would sell it or fix it and resubmit. That said, there are people that know how to "fix" things like this with natural looking rapid-retoning over a few to several months. It is still a risk but might be overcome.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I consider a counterfeit to be a bad coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
An old part time dealer back in Ohio told me that years ago. I used to sit with him at the ‘estate’ auctions that were common back then. So much of it was dreck, but he would bid on just about anything, and won a fair amount. But he knew how much to pay and where to go with it, so it was worth his while.
People who buy slabbed problem coins at least have the assurance it’s real, are buying them to crack out for their albums, it’s at least in their range of affordability, and cracked out it probably looks nice enough the problem not readily discernible (especially to a wife). Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Nevertheless that problem coin dealer (my post above) did a booming business in them. If raw, the problem was described. He knew how make money on it as he bought it low and knew how market them, price them, and from experience knew what he could get out of them. If your not buried in it and have some smash-mouth ball sense you can make money on it. But first it takes buying it right.
I don't mind them, but some problems are worse than others. A small reverse scratch is one Id take over a harshly polished coin.
Sometimes there aren’t enough straight graded coins for a particular variety to go around. You learn to love the problem coin for its rarity more than its plastic.
BHNC #248 … 108 and counting.
Lol. You know what? Lol. I totally forgot I purposely bought this problem coin about 4 months ago, knowing something was wrong with it. It was in a junk silver pile. But knowing it was a CC Morgan, I just had to have it! I paid $25. Well worth the problem. Lol. Now, I see why people would go this route. Along with all you guy's explaining why collectors would buy a problem coin, It took me to remember one of my own purchases to actually know where you guys, that buy these, are coming from. That's funny!
1891cc
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.I myself try not to buy cleaned coins if I can help it but I would rather have a nice lightly cleaned coin than have a heavily dirty soiled coin that you can barely make out what it is and the cost of the dirty one be a lot more than the lightly cleaned coin. Again, I try to stay away from any and all that have been cleaned and if I do have any at all, its because I didn't look hard enough or the costs were a lot higher for the non-cleaned one.
I also believe that some people that buy and sell coins might buy a slabbed non-straight net graded one or one that is genuine slabbed and crack them out and then put them back on auction raw and then forgot to mention it in the description that it has been cleaned and hope that a person that doesn't know better will pay up for it and the seller makes a nice little profit from them. I believe this to happen a lot of times when looking at coin auctions.
Other people will buy a known cleaned coin to fill a hole in their collection to keep/or replace it if it's something they want bad enough to have a straight graded one and be able to afford later on.
People buy them, crack them out, and then sell them as problem free coins.
That's NOT right!
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Pre-19th century I have a few. Depends on the problem. Some light corrosion on a 17th century copper, excessive clipping of a 17th century silver coin, some circulation damage on a 16th century 4 real - these guys have been around and have not been messed with by their owners to improve them. To me there is a world of difference between coins with a lot of age and normal circulation issues and those that have been intentionally or naively improved.
When PCGS first started grading coins I remember that some dealers bought AU58 slabbed coins, cracked them out, and then sold them raw as Mint State coins. That didn't last too long because collectors would start offering AU money for raw MS coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
The Mercury Dime in the OP does not look all that bad to me. Maybe it looks differently in person.
I recently purchased a "Spot Removed" 1939 doubled monticello and could not be happier with the purchase. Only a couple of minor blemishes with the spot removal and can still appreciate the dramatic doubling. Paid MS60 price and would likely grade at least MS65 without the blemishes. Nice and flashy.
I do have another question related to problem coins. I have a popular VAM Morgan (1891-CC Spitting Eagle) that I was able to cherrypick a few years ago, but when I had it graded it came back as "Bent - UNC Details". How much does a "Bent" coin detract from value compared to other more "visual" problems? When the coin is in the slab it is near impossible to actually see the coin as bent...
I will consider a problem "details" coin for the right price, depending upon the problem and availability. I'd never buy a "details" coin from any 20th century US series because the coins are far too common. (Someone mentioned a 1933 eagle somewhere on this forum recently. That's an exception but it's way out of my price range anyway.)
For coins like the one in the OP where it's cleaning, I'm ok with that as long as it's not very noticeable. The problems I will avoid are tooling, holed coins, more than minimal corrosion, whizzing, rim damage and harshly cleaned.
How the heck do you bend a Morgan??
Successful BST transactions with: Cameonut, Rob41281
Nice pick up for the price! What is the green gunk on it? PVC residue? Is that the only "problem"?
Successful BST transactions with: Cameonut, Rob41281
some coins are so rare you take what you can get. This is a coin I am proud to own and it is at least one of the top 3 know examples even cleaned. It should be noted that it is also one of the worst 3 known but I digress
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Lots of interest in "problem coins" with variety collectors, Early American Coppers members, colonials, die variety collectors, etc...
Words of wisdom, applicable to multiple facets of life.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Thanks. No, that's not the problem. If you look on the reverse. The coin has three rim dings, 3,o'clock 5,o'clock and 6,o'clock. Then, on the obverse, at 5,o'clock, there's some "o" mark on the coin, under her hair. Also, it might be cleaned as well? This coin, despite all it's problems, shouldn't have never been in any "junk silver" tray. That's why I picked it up.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Ok thanks. If it was cleaned, someone didn't do a very good job!
Successful BST transactions with: Cameonut, Rob41281
Also, about my problem coin. The CC Morgan, Many people are telling me, even with all those defects, the coin is still worth at least, $70.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Some would also include CAC rejected coins as “problem” coins. Some may be, but many are not.
not all problem coins are horrible looking, and still have a market.
I was wondering the same thing when I saw the grade. It didn't appear bent before I submitted it but, then again, I was not actively trying to determine if it was bent. I understand why the distinction is there and if I were a collector I would want to know if my coin were "bent". It is just frustrating to receive a grade of "Unc Details Bent" when the problem does not affect the actual obverse/reverse appearance of the coin (if only minor from the side; which is not noticeable when the coin is in the thick holder). Why couldn't PCGS grade the coin and then add something like "Problem - Bent"?
For many people, "bent" is worse than other causes of details grades, such as cleaning, artificial toning, altered surfaces, etc. The fact that "the problem does not affect the actual obverse/reverse appearance of the coin" doesn't sound like adequate justification for assigning a numerical grade. Similarly, coins with hidden rim problems usually receive a details grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I had a coin come back "bent" the first time I submitted it. It wasn't a US coin though but an 18th century South American. I wanted it authenticated anyway and it came back with a VF-35 grade the second time which I consider correct.
I also had another coin come back with "scratches" that came back in a XF-40 holder the second time. There wasn't anything wrong with this coin either.
The OP dime looks slightly broadstruck and then like it might have gotten stuck in a Mechanical counter or sorter. But who knows
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set