A Question of Integrity...
chesterb
Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭✭
I wanted to post something that bothered and disappointed me so much that I can't ignore it. I would like to preface the tale with a disclaimer that in no way does this relate to our hosts and I am not implying that there is any wrong-doing by them or their staff. However, I think this is a systemic problem that should be known and discussed because it greatly impacts the industry.
I was on a Newman Numismatic Portal seminar this morning where they discussed Detection of Counterfeit Slabs. By the way, it was a very good presentation other than this one issue. One of the presenters is a finalizer and QC person at a major grading service (again, not PCGS). During the course of the presentation, this person took a side bar and showed a coin that he submitted to his own service that came back as not-authentic. He lamented the fact that he thought it was authentic but that he had artificially toned it prior to submitting it and was hoping it would "make it through." Apparently, the coin was polished before his AT and he believed that threw them off with their not-genuine designation. What bothers me is that a person, who is in a fairly important role for the TPG, knowingly submitted an AT coin by his own doing. He did not say that what he submitted it for but instead had a smirk and funny smile as he confessed that he artificially toned it prior to submission. He also did not say what he submitted it as and perhaps he was just wanting an authentic designation. His facial expressions indicated otherwise though.
The numismatic hobby and ANA puts a great deal of trust in TPGs and the bar should be set at a higher level for themselves and their employees. If this is happening by their own employees, especially ones in such an important position, then how can we as hobbyists trust anything? There have been many posts on the issue of artificial toning, market acceptability and the various softening and strengthening in grading cycles. I believe issues like this confirm how problems happen.
We need more integrity in the industry. We need the TPG's and their employees to be held at a higher standard and there should be safeguards put in place to ensure that they are looking out for the numismatic industry's best interests and not of their own or employees own pocketbooks.
Thanks for hearing me out,
Chesterb
Comments
If that’s accurate, it’s very disturbing. And among other things, the submitter was likely in violation of the terms and conditions for submitting coins to the grading company.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Money will win over honor and integrity more often than not, not a good outcome or what is right just simply true.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Agree. If I was his employer, I think that the act would be a serious infraction and further talking about it at a public event would be an example of extremely poor judgment.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
If true he should be fired immediately.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
The idea of a current high level employee of a major grading service boasting about doctoring coins and trying to 'get them through' is very disturbing, if true.
Justin Meunier
Boardwalk Numismatics
I hear and agree with everything that’s been posted, but will also add this: his coin didn’t make it through. I think that speaks volumes to the jobs that most are doing. So maybe this guy isn’t of the highest integrity, but maybe most of them are.
He didn’t try to find, or couldn’t find an accomplice and his coin was treated like everyone else’s. Maybe there is a glimmer of hope in this story?
I'm with you and the others here. Based on the info, it doesn't sound good if true. However, we don't have all the facts, so there should not be a rush to judgement.
If it is the person I think, then they are no longer working at a TPG.
you said the employee didn't work for PCGS and I'll assume he doesn't work for NGC either. that means it's no big deal because the "Market" takes care of everyone else, people of low ethical integrity are generally found out and dealt with.
I must have missed that during the discussion. However, he focused only on "his" TPG and purported himself to be an expert there and talked so much about them that I would have no way of knowing otherwise.
I would need to see facts that stick before getting into speculation. IMO.
Given that the names of the presenters are public information, I think it would be reasonable to wait for the video to be posted and then ask ATS.
The individual who does not work at NGC is somebody I know personally and is a young man of impeccable credentials.
The whole issue of AT coins being "cleanly" graded as MA at the TPGs is another issue, entirely.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Correct there were two presenters and only one made this claim. I stand by my detail of how it went.
If the other person is no longer at the TPG then I totally missed that as he seemed to present as though he still worked there.
So you read his face and know his intentions. Your story seems off to me. If someone was doing something sinister why would they come out and say it openly in public! Maybe he was testing the graders. What do you think he or she was actually doing. And how would they benefit from telling the group about it.
Maybe they were trying to teach you something thru their story?
Is there a link to the video so we can watch for ourselves??
Latin American Collection
I’m a big fan of innocent until proven guilty but I will say, audits of practices and processes at the TPGs should be a thing. With so much riding on their name, shareholders and customers alike have an interest in making sure the integrity of the service is unquestionable. If the TPG is publicly traded, it may even be a legal requirement if coins they own/bought back are used in their financials as an asset.
Totally agree. I am bringing this up as an issue that impacts the industry. I would welcome others to view the presentation and judge for themselves. They are recording the presentations and I understand that they will be posted for viewing later.
Thanks!
Latin American Collection
If this person was doing something untoward and then came out in a public seminar and ratted on himself, this would have to be one of the dumbest people on earth. Makes no sense to me at all. How would someone ascend to the heights of finalizer at a major grading company and be this dumb.
Is there a possibility you misread what they were saying? If not what do you think they were trying to get across to you. Look how good of a crook I am.
I wish there were others that saw the presentation and what I am referring to and gave their impression on how it went down.
I will be glad to watch it upon its availability.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@chesterb said However, I think this is a systemic problem that should be known and discussed because it greatly impacts the industry.
Could you please explain what system in the industry you think there is a problem with. And when you say this what are you referring to . I am confused.
Not sure how you're confused with my first post. I'm not going to argue with anyone or convince anyone I'm right and if you think I'm out of line then that's fine. I posted something that bothered me that I think impacts the integrity of the hobby. I welcome everyone to view the video themselves when it comes out and form their own opinion. That's the outcome I wanted to begin with.
I honestly do not know what you think this persons intentions were. It seems that you think they were negative but not what they actually were. I am not wanting to argue just understand.
Maybe it is just me and if so I apologize. What exactly do you think he was saying?
Do you think he was trying to get the coin in a straight graded holder to sell?
I don't know. It didn't really have any point in the discussion. It seemed to me to be a dumb thing to say. Perhaps he was trying to say how a counterfeit coin can get past a TPG? Again, it seemed to be more of a sidebar point than a teaching moment.
It seemed very, very dumb to admit that he AT a coin and then submitted it. It was not something that flowed with the presentation.
And if I'm wrong about all of this and misheard what was said then I will publicly apologize and say my own "Goodbye" for a self imposed time-out!
This is easy.........check it out. Last night I looked up a coin on Heritage. Value? Unknown to me, can't access bids. Resides today in NGC holder asking price $6250 , 1855 Liberty Seated dollar EF 45 as the "NEW NGC HOLDER SAYS" alas, in my life that exact coin sold in a Heritage sale in a different NGC holder as No Grade "Cleaned" NGC cleaned holder 4885011-008.
New Holder 4631996-009
Ask price now is $1500 over uber, scubber, doober, retail PCGS pricing guide,for a coin in 45 with no back story.
NGC holder coin Resurrected it once was a No Grade.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give me all the excuses. I've been around 40 years.
They shoot coin collectors .........don't they?
Latin American Collection
Everywhere you go in every industry there is corruption. Is this surprising? It's a known fact for those that have been around the block a few times that isn't spoken about openly. There are favors, favoritism, etc. that happen in every aspect of the coin business...whether it be the TPG's, Auction Houses or whatever. That's life in a capitalistic society.
That's disturbing, and I would be hesitant to trust that TPG for anything. It has the "fox guarding the henhouse" type vibe for me. Their job is to prevent that type of abuse and not propagate it.
And, sadly, even more prevalent in non-capitalistic societies.
There are going to be a lot of transactions in a small, thinly traded marketplace that will not be transparent.
Submitting accelerated toning (or artificial) is one example and many others mentioned are happening probably more than we would assume. Educate yourself as much as possible. That is the best protection.
K> @btcollects said:
So the hobbies full of crooks at various levels and we should accept it and keep spending away? OP your concern is unnecessary. Please continue to purchase. All is well in the hobby.
Welcome to the business end of the hobby. Develop a thick skin, and don't let anything greatly surprise you. Read my sig line (approved by Colonel Jessup).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Caveat Emptor, but nobody should act indifferent to the problems and issues in this marketplace.
It really becomes the responsibility of the stakeholders in the biz, the large firms, auction houses, TPG's to help police unethical, misleading behavior.
Will the market ever be perfect, no, but it can be made great. So the OP's concern is relevant IMO.
I agree in principle. However, the ANA hasn't been particularly effective (known coin doctors have taught courses at ANA Summer Seminars). Until the ANA cracks down, not much will happen.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Agree and great discussion. Thank you!
The grass roots effort can start here with honest discussion and holding the ANA board accountable.
IMHO they've been too friendly to other numismatic deviants too including a counterfeiter or two. It is time for Congress to revoke the ANA's charter. It is a very poor reflection on this hobby IMHO.
Trust,but verify.
I've received a PM that the person in question announced that he was a "former" grader and QC finalizer for the TPG so I stand corrected on that point. In hearing the presentation go on, I was under the presentation that he still worked there.
K> @btcollects said:
Unpopular opinion... The presenter helped the audience understand the sharky nature of our hobby. This stuff happens all the time. Most of the renowned / notorious crackout guys and doctors that come to my mind are former graders. Every valuable coin in the public marketplace has either been looked at and passed on by the doctors, or actually worked on. It's the rule rather than the exception. Every collector should be skeptical of fancy toning or unusual surfaces or anything hyped. Anyone who's been in this for a while has a million stories. It's a good educational moment. Don't turn it into something it's not.
Educate yourself. Never "invest" your money in something you don't understand. Learn to grade. Learn what a cleaned coin looks like. It helps to deal only with honest dealers whose integrity is beyond reproach. Yes, they are out there. The bottom line is: Save yourself. Nobody else is going to save you from yourself.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Unfortunately honest dealers are scarcer than attractive, original classic U.S. coins at reasonable prices.
I wish the toning craze would go away. AT will stay a major problem until there is no demand for the supply
BTW. This is just a general statement and not meant to imply that I believe anyone associated with this post is guilty of anything to do with the AT situation.
I believe I have spent both my cents
What were his motives? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until I learn them.
Well, like any group of human beings, 80% will be "ok"; 10% will be extremely honest and ethical; 10% will not be.
I have run into all kinds in this business...from mentors who were selfless with their time with me when I was just a stupid kid and imparted great knowledge to me.....and the dishonest shysters and crooks who tried (successfully a few times, I must admit) to fleece me.
Oh, the stories I could tell....and I am a relatively minor player (I refer to myself as a catfish in the coin business) but I have been around a good many years.
"He lamented the fact that he thought it was authentic but that he had artificially toned it prior to submitting it and was hoping it would "make it through." Apparently, the coin was polished before his AT and he believed that threw them off with their not-genuine designation."
If this former grader was any good he knew it was not authentic then tried to cover it up with AT or cleaning.
Might be the reason he is a former grader....no integrity.
He could have sent the coin to any grading company and it sounds like the one he sent it to did a great job.
.
@chesterb
Because of your avatar & your thread title I just couldn't pass it up.
Wow. You've met a lot of nice people. My perception and experience is that 25% of people are intentionally/actively looking to cheat/lie/steal/hurt you, 60% will stab you in the back opportunistically, 10% are okay, and only 5% are truly caring, empathetic, and honest people.
Here's what I want to know...
Who is to say he would be the finalized of his own coins he submits? If it's dishonest submitting his own AT coins, who is to say he won't lie on finalizing coins?
He should be reassign to a desk.