1909S VDB The Points I See To Indicate It May Be Genuine, I Need Your View Points That It May Not Be
MarkW63
Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭✭
This coin is MINE!
No, I've not had it very long!
Yes! Its possible I purchased a fake!
Its uncertain at present if I can get my money back if its a counterfeit!
This past Monday I drove the coin to a authorized PCGS coin dealer and he gave it a 60% chance of being genuine!
Lets get to the meat of this post.
The only way I could find or come up with equal size photos was to create them myself.
The best option had for a comparison coin in my collection was a 1909S-(No VDB) that I used primarily for its Obverse view.
Here is the 09S vdb
Here is the 09S (No VDB)
In the above the dropped "WE" In God We Trust looks correct!
The date & mint mark location seem okay!
The head, ear, hair line seem okay!
The mint mark font type MAYBE? (the mint mark on the 09S (no vdb) is flatten more due to more wear.
Now a little closer view of the mint marks.
Okay, the novice me still gives the mint mark & okay!
Here is the setup for the next two pictures.
Just this week I got this low budget computer scope.
I set everything up (all the reference lines and zoom power on the 09S VDB and I took the image.
Then for comparison the 09S (No vdb) was positioned under the scope using the preset grid and same zoom.
This should have lined the two up as close as possible.
So, in the above and me being the one here that's LEARNING!!
The mint strike and font type are to close for me to call, so, I'm on the LIKELY side of yes, its good!
Being there is a possibility of different dies used on these two coins, I'm going with the mint and date are correct!
Here is the reverse of just the 09S vdb
Looking online on how to spot a counterfeit 09Svdb, they seemed to lean towards the (B) in V.D.B
The center bar of the B on a real one has a slight cant to it and the forward part of the lower loop of the B has a bit of an upward slant.
Based on that, that detail seems okay! (correct)
Overall, I have some concerns about the material folds on the breast (chest) of the coat/shirt.
So, PLEASE take a serious look!
Cast your vote for Genuine or Counterfeit.
To get it certified I was told it would cost me another near $120.00 and I could get it back in a bag ungraded with a note saying its a counterfeit.
So, your votes will help me decide what I really want to do.
Thanks
Mark
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Comments
I realize that I’ve seen at least some of those pictures before and expressed doubts about the coin.
Taking just a quick look at the obverse now, the lower serif on the S mintmark looks off/too rounded and the detail looks mushy.
Edited to add: I believe that you have a legal right to a refund on a counterfeit coin. The seller of one cannot pass title to it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The periods after each letter in VDB look rather large. I don't remember them being that big.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Those periods are bowling balls.
I might be wrong but I thought the period after the D is supposed to be halfway to the B.
Genuine:
Fake:
Definitely fake based on those pics.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
2nd period placement is not correct. Dot has to be between D and B and centered.
bob
I’d suggest contacting the seller and politely, but firmly asking for a full refund. If need be, point him to this thread.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Not even close. Stay here and learn.
my comments based on the pics alone was counterfeit or whizzed. little did i know it was both.
those periods. yikes. bowling balls.
if an authorized pcgs dealer gave that 60% with an in-hand examination....
it's not like it is in the top 3 counterfeited coins of all time or anything ><
thanks for sharing. if one can develop some thick skin, the amount one can learn here!!!
one of my favorite things about the svdb, if one side is giving you trouble, usually the other side wraps it up for ya.
MAJOR feature to look out for @MarkW63, look all around the edges of the device, bust, date, edge etc and notice how curved/bowl shape they are where they meet the field. it was 1 of the first 2 things that jumped out at me.
First is fake (I have one just like it).
The second is genuine. Need to see in hand to confirm it isn't an added mintmark.
Agreed!
There are no deals to be had on Slabbed and graded 1909 VDB S cents for a reason. That goes for the 1914 D, and 1955 DDO. Suck it up and buy them already graded Please so you will not have to deal with these situations again.
WS
Fake. The B in VDB does not have the slanted line in the middle of the letter. The S on the mintmark is not correct. Should be shaped like a box. The dots in VDB are obviously wrong,
What’s with the double looking line that is under the VDB that goes around the entire reverse?
The coin just does not look right. It has an overall mushy look that 1909 Lincolns did not have. I also think I have seen photos of a similar coin in another thread. I would advise returning it for a refund.
The piece looks like a casting to me.I see bubbles on the "S."
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
My LWS Dansco has broken out 09-SVDB and 14-D for this very reason.
Successful BST Transactions: erwindoc, VTchaser, moursund, robkool, RelicKING, Herb_T, Meltdown, ElmerFusterpuck
If you saw some of the photos in another thread here, I stated that I had first posted them in a Counterfeit Silver Dollar thread, just a couple of days ago!
But, assured that every single picture above is mine! I spent a lot of time today with inferior equipment to get them and get them in that order.
Thank You For Your Feedback!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I saw the photos more than a few days ago. It may have been a similar piece or maybe even the same coin.
Okay, just so I know which second one your talking about, there is only two different coins pictured, the comparison coin IS NOT a VDB its just an 09S.
I was sort of hoping someone might make a comment about it.
Can you spot a fake PCGS coin slab?
If so, then take a look at this one.
Yes, its mine!
Yes, I did actually cut the coin out of the holder, I knew I was going to do that when I bought it, I wanted the coin to FIT into my penny album.
I've had the coin/holder for nearly 2 years now, and until this week I had NO idea that the coin holders were being counterfeited.
Real, or counterfeit?
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I am going to grab a screen shot of your two pictures, I see the B on mine is leaning back to far,
The V is to high, the right leg of V is to short, and the periods (dots) are to large, with the middle one out of place.
Thank you for taking the time to group those together.
Consider them Hijacked
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I didn't expect you to post a comment, BUT!!!!! I'm glad you did!
Your already working on a second (owed) steak dinner
From one Mark to another Mark, Thank You!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
.
wow. i only JUST barely got that holder to scan. darn break. it pulls up ok. the cert # checks out. the holder and insert look ok.
was that 09-s posted in another thread? it looks familiar and i commented on a coin that i thought was that one. perhaps not.
Thanks for the feedback.
I've had the coin near two weeks now, and this forum is the only place I've posted pictures of it so far, and the pictures I have of it I took.
One thing for sure you folks have a keen eye for details.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Hey! I remember you as being one of the good guys in the Trade Dollar Thread
That was a rocky landing over there for sure.
Thanks for your time.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Sorry for any confusion.
Your first coin featured- the 1909-S VDB is absolutely a counterfeit as I own one similar and I know it is fake.
The second- your 1909-S is genuine as stated. I was simply unsure of the mintmark yet in light of seeing it was taken from a PCGS slab am now confident is in a real "S" mint Lincoln cent.
It's a hobby requirement. The counterfeiters would have already won if we didn't.
What makes you think the 09-s is bad? The holder looks genuine. It's the 09-s vdb that is counterfeit.
Well, actually I thought if anything I may have confused you in that you may have thought both were VDB's
Were good.
My other question was actually about the PCGS holder and label possibly being a counterfeit, which if it was would have for sure meant the coin that was in was a FAKE!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Ol' I didn't think it was bad, but with all that I found out just in the past 5 days about what I'm calling the "Industrialized World Of Counterfeits" it COULD have been
When I posted the pic of it my thought was what will I do if I get as many 09S counterfeit responses as I do for the 09SVDB? I could even question if the 2021 UNC I added to the collection is counterfeits. I've said this before, I knew they were coin knock off's but I didn't have any idea of the vastness of it and how it had infected the hobby so bad.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
When I posted the 09S-VDB in that Silver Dollar thread with out double checking I believe one of the pictures was this one,
But I don't remember any comments about just the 09S.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Here are the slabs that caused me to jump off the counterfeit cliff!
Check these out! this started this WHOLE MESS FOR me just a few days ago, this is the HOW I got to looking at the 09S VDB, otherwise I would have just went about with it thinking it was a nice addition to my Lincoln Cent Collection.
And NO they're not the same coin!
This STILL BLOWS ME AWAY!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I think he'd rather have a steak dinner.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
There are some sites with detailed diagnostics to look for on the 09 S VDB and the 93 S Morgan. The latter fakes are much easier to spot than the former.
The mint mark on your 09 S VDB is off. It's more square and boxy on an original. The S on your coins has some sort of bubbles / dots, which do not appear on any of the original coins. The S on your coin is also mushy. The reverse diagnostics on the VDB scream fake; those are much easier to catch than the above re the S mint mark.
I'm glad I put this post up, I'm also glad to know, as bad as I hate to face the truth.
So, far all the votes that are currently in is 100% counterfeit for the 09S vdb.
I'm a little surprised with so many responses so quickly! Very, VERY helpful & informative!
I can't contribute much coin information here, but from a 63 year school of hard knocks, I can contribute this.
In life we sometimes end up in places (or with things) that turned out not GOOD, if we think of that as the past that we can't change, then that puts us in the present then my thought is this! 'Always This'
Where am I at?
Where am I going?
How do I get there?
Thanks to everyone who chimed in with their links, pictures, comments, and professional advice
(Private joke) it looks like the google translator is working really good, I can't see my West Virginia Accent or bad grammar at all.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Darn, caught, okay, how can I...... Ah, I got it, that "Stake Dinner" is reserved for a vampire I came across on another forum that needs eliminated. The one that's been reserved for "MFeld" is the other "Steak Dinner" I'll be sure to notify the head chef of the corrections LoL!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
As others have stated, the S VDB is counterfeit.
100% certainty.
The 09-S look good.
Let me ask you all this,
Over the years has there ever been any mint strike changes to Lincoln's figure on the coin? If not then how do they preserve the identical image for over 100 years and untold amounts of different die sets?
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
What is a "mint strike"? You have used that term before....
Anyway, yes, there have been many changes to the portrait over the years (detail, relief). They use master hubs for continuity in between adjustments.
Very good pictures that you provided... which allowed the sad news to be delivered. The V.D.B is the first place I check on these cents...and the S is the second place. Send it back to the seller.... Cheers, RickO
We're on a tangent here but to answer your questions, yes, there have been many tweaks to Lincoln's portrait.
Regardless, coins are struck from working dies which are produced by working hubs, which come from master dies made from master hubs. The master hub is created from a large plaster galvano and a reducing lathe. This is why an unlimited number of coins can be made with the same design.
Lance.
I guess I adopted that term on my own without giving it farther thought, "Mint" as in our U.S Mint "Strikes" coins
American Heritage Dictionary
meaning to say, did the US mint ever strike any Lincoln cents with design changes to the figure of Lincoln itself.
That proof Lincoln above has a very nice defined "Strike" it was very well "Struck"
And when I state "the mint" I was referring to a 'Genuine U.S Mint Struck Coin' not a counterfeit variety.
My bad, I'm learning.
My inquiry was along the idea of it being possible to use any good condition US Mint Struck Lincoln cent specifically the Lincoln image as a road map for detail comparison to say the 1909S vdb, could that image on the proof above be used for say the standard for correct details (not condition)
Mark
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Too many changes over the years to use anything but a genuine 1909-s vdb for comparison.
Save this to your desktop or laptop.
*
*
Well, maybe a bit of a rant LoL!
In the past on other forums I've been on when a discussion (thread) is going with specific information flowing Q&A's towards the end when the topic is starting to play out, often times they close with more causal in general conversion, maybe some jokes, poke each other with some friendly humor.
The other form of post specific, get specific is okay, but I call it a style of "Hit & Run" and not really much of a real discussion.
Typing, grammar, lots of editing, transposed letters, stake for Steak (because the sound alike), are problems for me.
That means that my post are actually work intense to put together, "Hit & Run" and I don't care would sure make my life easier for sure. But, I do the work because I guess I do care and I hope that my comments are at lest readable.
When I'm working and struggling with putting together a message and a professional college grammar student chimes in with a remarks like,
"this person's English and grammar is so bad that I think he's using a google translator and is a counterfeiter" it does ruffle one fathers to say the list. (that happened to me here in another thread)
Back in the late 60's and early 70's a person didn't have to have a college education to find a decent job, my first full time job I was 12 years old (it didn't last long), I cleaned department stores on a midnight shift. I arrived just before close (10:00pm), was locked in the building by myself (alone) until the store employees coming back to work the next morning to reopen the store let me out.
So, comments like me "needing someone to hold my hand" has a (can have) personal sting to it.
For 35 years at my last job I worked along side several career college students "Professional Students" they NEVER ever made one cent more money than I did, and they took college classes FOREVER! why? their in-laws had ALL the MONEY, the in-laws put the sweetie pie, little butter cup, darling, spoiled rotten child when she got married in a big fine home as LONG as stepson was in college even though they worked in a grocery warehouse the rest of their lives, and the last 7 years I transferred into the mechanic's shop making more money than they did.
Oh, boy I did just turn this thread into a "tangent" didn't I. Its to much work to delete it even if I do care
I do think I'll be directing the person I got the 09S vdb penny from to this discussion about the coin being counterfeited, LOTS of really good, clear, & sound info here for sure.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Well, I had the information about the different die sets being used that seem to somewhat mainly relocate the mint mark. That's why I referred specifically to Lincoln's image and not other areas of the coin. (I didn't know that before this week)
I know that with the 14-D they used 6 different die sets and any real 14-D the mint mark will align with one of the 6 sets of dies.
I know that the D font on the Lincoln cents have changed several times over the years, so, the D used on the altered 44-D is a totally different font that what was used on the 14-D (found that out earlier this week)
But, I will for sure save your posted images!!
Thank you!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
And that answers several questions I don't need to ask!
Thank You, very informative
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
If anyone has noticed I'm trying to figure out how the quote brackets (line tags) work so I can select different things within the quote to reduce repetitive content, like the same pictures, or everything that was said on the OP (I mean Original Post)
and everything in between the two html tags would appear as quoted in my comments.
I'm used to these
So I could quote several comments from several different people, reply to each quote.
Here I only see what looks like a greater than or lesser than sideways (V) which from where I come from isn't line tags at all?
So, I'm not only working through coin information, I'm working through the attribute differences of this forum.
I just figured out that when we make a quote the above tags actually work, but they're not displayed as such. Very strange??? I'm puzzled for now.
I'm muddling through all this the best I kind!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I tried a test comment using quote tags, BUT it went stupid, so, I'll not try that again.
I'll not use anything other than the little weird (V's) thingies.
Carry On!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
there is a Testing forum. go nuts with it!
Oh BOY! I didn't know that, I feel like a kid in a candy store with a $100.00 bill!
I guess the forum Moderators and admin's just totally flush its content regularly.
I'll book mark it.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Fake. These 1909 S VDB are counterfeit so often and some of them look incredibly real! I recommend only buying 1909 S VDBs that are slabbed & certified by NGC or PCGS.
Owner of http://www.timidpenny.com
Thank You!
Another vote for "Counterfeit"
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!