Shipping expectation when using a Cashier's Check
pointfivezero
Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭✭✭
I recently found myself in a little dust up with an online coin retailer over the holding period when using a Cashier's Check and would be interested in unvarnshed opinions. In all fairness to this retailer, the shipping policy is clearly stated on their website. In fairness to me, I conducted the entire purchase process over the phone and was not informed about the hold period.
My beef with this retailer was the failure to distinguish between a personal check and a Cashier's Check when defining their policy. I would have (somewhat) understood a 10 business day hold on a personal check but since Cashier's Checks are funded in 24 to 48 hours (verified with Bank of America with this transaction), I felt they were just holding my coin hostage and using the float time as a business benefit.
For reference, here are the turaround times on some of my other recent transactions with major retailers when using a Cashier's Check. As it turned out with the retailer in question, nearly a month elasped from the time I sent the check (Priority Mail) and when I received the coin. Opinions - was I out of line in raising a stink?
Comments
I would rather take a personal check over a cashiers check. My Bank has told me sometimes it can take 30 days before they find out a check is bad.
Thanks for the note. Personally, I think there is a much bigger risk for the retailer with a personal check, especially when the Cashier's Check is drawn from a major banking instuition.
From Wikipedia:
**A cashier's check (or cashier's cheque) is a check guaranteed by a bank, drawn on the bank's own funds and signed by a cashier.[1] Cashier's checks are treated as guaranteed funds because the bank, rather than the purchaser, is responsible for paying the amount. They are commonly required for real estate and brokerage transactions.
Genuine cashier's checks deposited into a bank account are usually cleared the next day. The customer can request "next-day availability" when depositing a cashier's check in person. Forged cashier's checks may bounce 2 weeks after being deposited.**
A month is a bit on the high side but people put policies like this in place because they’ve been burned before. There’s no real safety in a cashier’s check. A wire transfer is immediate and pretty darn irrevocable. A USPS money order is good. Until you have a SOLID reputation with a dealer, expect a hold period. C’est la vie.
There’s no reason each retailer should have the same policIes either. A little communication up-front (When will you ship the coin?) usually reduces the frustration.
You got the coin - dealer got paid. Now you know. I’d just move on.
Yes, I have moved on but trying to gather some perspective. I made this retailer aware of my concerns but I don't want to be THAT guy. The coin community is a relatively small one and I don't want to leave a trail of burning bridges in my wake.
I would too. Some times the cashiers check can be forged as well.
Indeed there are fake cashier's checks out there.
It doesn't seem long to me. The ten-day waiting period might be a hassle for your patience, but the near 30-days to receive the coin likely had more to do with the current state of shipping (USPS, FedEx, UPS, etc...) than it did the dealer in question.
In my opinion, you were wrong if you raised "a stink", but there would have been no issue if you made a harmless comment about not realizing the added delay would be in there.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
My bank has told me that the potential fraud risk is the same for a cashier's check or a personal check, so I would have the same policy for each. Why not send a wire? It clears right away and most dealers would ship right away after receiving.
-Paul
Thanks @TomB. I think it's fair to say I let my feelings be known but in a professional manner. And the one month turnaround does include shipping on both ends. Unfortunately, much of my ire was due to the fact I took the time to go to the bank in the Era of Covid and the expense of shipping the check in a Priority Mail envelope. Both my choices.
Appreciate the feedback.
I guess I'm old school but appreciate the suggestion.
I am old school too, years ago a cashiers check was king, but in today's world of scammers, not so much. 🙂
Checks, including cashier checks, are very 20th century. 10 days is a very reasonable hold period
I'm old school also, but I seldom transact with either a personal or cashiers check on line. E-check, where available, is the way to go, it clears within 24-48 hrs and the merchant usually ships within 3 days after it clears
I am old school and still use personal checks, and while I appreciate the trust of a dealer who ships upon receipt of the check, I understand a holding period. I remember getting calls from dealers I had never heard of saying that they had a coin I may like and would be willing to send it to me for a look. If I liked the coin I could send a check, if not return the coin. Those days are long gone.
Everybody has their days ... That's life!
I've received a fake cashier's check for over $3000. The only way you'll see me comfortable with the validity of a check (personal or cashier's) shortly after I receive it (from an unknown entity, that is) is if I have access to the bank on which it's drawn and can cash it or deposit it there.
Thanks for all the feedback. I was also the victim of a bad check forged on a company account ($4630) which I naively deposited and shipped a 100 oz silver bar only to have it bounce several days later. I understand the need for caution but assumed (incorrectly, I guess) that Cashier's Checks were more secure.
although you made your purchase over the phone, if you shopped with them online to make a selection it was your responsibility to review the hold restrictions. Likely they used the word "check" without stating any difference between hold times based on type of check.
What makes them somewhat more secure than personal checks is that a personal check, unlike a cashier's check, can be issued with no funds to back it. Cashier checks require immediate funds at time they are written, but they are not exempt from fraud/counterfeiting.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
You are correct - they lump personal checks together with certified checks and money orders with the 10 business day hold. I agree it was my responsibility to review the policy before placing the order. I always felt Cashier's Checks should be treated the same as cash. Lesson learned.
Free lesson. the best kind.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
@pointfivezero Good thread.
I’m curious about your assertion “I felt they were just holding my coin hostage and using the float time as a business benefit.”
How does a delayed shipment create a monetary advantage (float) for the dealer?
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
It doesn't unless they are delaying a refund.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
Thanks Catbert. My point in this statement was they had my $4700 in their possession the day after they received the payment and were free to use it for whatever purposes they wished while my two Morgans remained safely in their vault. I knew this as I went to my local Bank of America branch and confirmed the funds were received by the vendor.
Cashier's checks were 30 years ago, then people figured out how to counterfeit them. My dad used to go to a bank on a handshake to get a loan. I haven't even been to do that, they want my life in blood! Times have changed!
But the vendors use and access to your $4,700 was EXACTLY the same whether they sent your Morgan’s out two days after they received your payment, or 20 days after they received your payment. The ONLY difference is they held your coins longer. Holding your coins longer provided no extra financial benefit to the vendor. Just extra safety in case the Cashiers Check was forged. As noted above by another post, your point would only be valid if in a refund situation they held up the refund for a longer time. In your case, they derived zero extra financial benefit!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Hey Steve - that was exactly my point to them. They had my money and for nearly a month, I had no coins. Color me impatient but only one side of this transaction was satisfactory for this time period.
Understood, but they derived no financial benefit from holding your coins, compared to having sent your coins earlier. I agree with your beef on them not shipping the coins in presumably a timely manner, but them having held your coins did not provide any financial benefit to them.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I am surprised (and perhaps due to not knowing enough about the coin business) that sellers/buyers do not use Paypal...I have used it for many purchases (some coin, mostly not) and it has worked very well. Yes, a fee involved, but that is minor and negotiable between the parties. Am I missing something?? Cheers, RickO
Actually, the dealer provided free secured storage for the buyer.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This thread was VERY informative. I had thought that cashiers check was a good financial instrument. This forum is a great resource.
Firstly, Nobody has to accept any check from anyone.
For that matter, nobody also does not have to accept cash money as payment from anyone. There is NO obligation. And if cash is accepted, I believe the max quantity of each denomination can be limited for each denomination for any one transaction. (this is how it is in Canada and many other countries) I believe it is somewhere in the currency laws hidden. the only entity that must accept it subject to authetifcation, is the Finance arm of the GOV because the GOV in fact does own it.
Yes, yes, that opens a can of very lively worms...for a lot of ifs and buts etc..... But so far, common sense has prevailed in most, but not all circumstances. and history has been made a few times using these laws.
and,
Do you think the banks care if a check is NSF or forged etc?
they have insurance!!
And, insurance is cheaper than a a small SW programm within their big banking network which would identify, and list details, whenever any Bank check issued by any bank, even if payable to a Bearer or cash.
It would only take one scan of the check and any bank cashiers wicket! and then only seconds for verification! Just like they check your balance instantly...
but... again, insurance is cheaper and associated fees are income!
And the banks have all your $$$ until "funds are guaranteed."..on a guaranteed check)
My bank here in Canada (yes, I am a excellent client) will instantly credit a check to the benefit of my account up to a preset amount and anything over that, they have only a 24 hr hold on it for verification of funds.
sorry for the rant...
This sort of thing is certainly frustrating. But a sign of our times.
Counterfeiting and fraud is so prevalent now,...
Couple of additional notes -
I was a returning customers with this seller. Previous transaction was by credit card and shipped immediately.
I sent them a photo of the check and Priority Mail envelope with tracking number prior to taking it to the post office. I followed the same process with all the sellers in the table in the first post.
Perhaps my issue is I expect the same service level from vendors that I provide to my customers.
Final note - the two Morgans I purchased were superb. Much better than the pictures.
i always hated getting mail payments on e bay. most of the time i got postal money orders, they banned mail payments about 17 years ago because there is no buyer protection on mail payments
Do you tell the people you're buying from what that service level is?
I prefer personal checks also. I say that strictly out of experience; we have been burned by bogus cashiers checks, and I'm talking several days later.
In this case, I told them retroactively.....
Tough for a seller to provide a specific level of service when he doesn't know it's being expected.
Just sayin'.
Yes, understood. To be clear, once they told me about the ten day hold, I was very clear with my expectations. These expectations fell on deaf ears.