"NuTilt" images from DLRC
messydesk
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It looks like animated GIFs are finally making their way into the mainstream. Good to see. DLRC just announced using them on their website in conjunction with a viewing framework called "NuTilt", which lets you zoom in and vary the "twirling" speed. I've done this on some coins here and there in the past, and the results are better than the video images you get on some sites. It'll be interesting to see how this works out for coins and holders that are less cooperative than those shown as examples.
John
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
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While interesting, this is not as good as what @senator32 posted here not long ago in my opinion.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
When I click on a coin and click the green button for "CLICK FOR NUTILT IMAGE" I get a blank screen in Google Chrome. I have not tried via my iOS Phone yet or any other browsers. Right not it looks like a high speed animated gif that you can't pause appropriately for coin viewing and it might give some people seizures.
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Wow these might be a game changer.
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disco coins. Looks like revolving lights over the coins.
While they boost the lustre they distract from viewing details of the coin.
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it's a nice start but needs to be refined a little bit.
The article says that your iPhone can take advantage the new AR technology and you can rotate your phone in your hand to adjust the light as if you were holding the coin itself. I haven't been able to do it, it is just a repeating GIF.
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I have only been trying it on my desktop (Windows+Chrome), for which it works fine. It appears they use 24 images, one every 15 degrees, stored as an animated GIF, and then blend adjacent images to get a smoother transition in the viewing app. I imagine it would work with other animated GIFs, as well, and of arbitrary size, assuming there were 24 frames and they were looping in one direction (mine loop back and forth). The novelty is in the viewing app, which lets you control an animated GIF with either a desktop UI or by tilting your phone. The standard way of viewing an animated GIF has no such control, and looping speed is embedded in the file format and fixed. It's a supplement to high quality, high resolution images.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
The quality of the imaging doesn't hold a candle to @Senator32 , but i do quite enjoy the manual mode of adjusting the light source.
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I’m looking forward to seeing their mobile app. It’s a tool, and a useful one at that. Nice to see.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
it is nice and shows marks/discoloring etc that still images may unintentionally otherwise mask. i'm not sure i'd ask for it for the level i buy at but if it is offered, i'll certainly utilize it. to infinity and beyond!!!
I'd be concerned about its data usage. You can get absorbed into looking at coin pictures for a long time. If the server serves large animated GIFs into the mobile app at higher magnifications, you could be using a ton of data if you're not on Wifi.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Possibly, though I bet most people would be on WiFi or have unlimited plans who would use this. But most animated gifs (even animated pngs) can be very space efficient. I would imagine maybe 2MB max per image.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Yes it does work on the desktop. Yay. Will delete prior post.
edited to : It works from that link in the post, but I can't seem to get it to do the coins on the regular website.
Maybe only SOME coins??
It's interesting and food for thought.
Brand new technology!
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While useful, nothing beats a high-quality video done with decent lighting.
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I imagine most people using it from a desktop at home, and a mobile device while mobile. If using Wifi away from home, connectivity can be bad enough where it takes a long time to download images.
Anyway, the animated GIFs I have done are 600x600, 11 frames, and take up 3 MB each. APNG isn't standard enough to use, although I'd much prefer it due to the improved color rendering. The downloaded GIFs fro DLRC are 300x300, 24 frames, and about 2 MB. The implementation of this could actually use APNG on the back end and go through the NuTilt application or browser plug-in and have the improved color and not have to worry about compatibility, with the animated GIF being used as the downloadable format.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Thanks for the constructive feedback here, everyone! Yes, we just launched this on our website last week, and we're aiming to do a larger roll-out including the apps after Labor Day.
It's obviously a work in progress but we're trying to improve the process and imagery of this on a daily basis. Feel free to shoot any comments to me directly if you'd like at john@davidlawrence.com.
We don't envision this as something to take the place of static photography, but it certainly is an added bonus to be able to examine the coin even further as it brings out aspects of the coin that can only be seen in-hand.
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Interesting effects.... I encourage any and all improvements to online coin viewing....We all know (from experience right here) how pictures can be manipulated through lighting....so the ability to view it as still shots, moving angles and lighting all help - especially when buying online. Cheers, RickO
Don't stare at one of those for too long! I was staring at the one in the middle for about 10 seconds and I think I began to get nauseous! LOL....
Truthfully, That's pretty cool and I think it would be very helpful to show luster. I like it.
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We considered putting a subliminal message of "Please Buy Me" in the middle, but our lawyers suggested we not do that...
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
I love the idea, but only if there are high-quality static images to go with it. I use the animations to verify or disprove other things I'm suspecting from the static image. It's also a great way (but still an imperfect way) to get a feel for luster.
Cool idea. I quickly browsed the site looking for toners to compare photos vs. NuTilt, and it does seem to provide a different perspective. I think it'll help alleviate some of those instances where coin in hand might not quite be the same as photo on screen (i.e. expectations based on the photo).
Excellent advance in imaging!
Being able to see 24 different lighting angles provides something very close to the ideal "in hand" viewing experience.
In my view this is superior to @Senator32 's method, where he tilted the coin,
which has some value, but provided only limited lighting angles.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1039426/coins-in-motion-4k-video-showcase
Slow it down just a schmidge and it’s a winner!
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Thanks for the feedback. If you click on the image and load it independently you can actually speed up or slow down the rotations to your preferred speed. Or you can click on the coin there and get the light in the exact spot you want it.
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
You have the ability to slow it down once you click on it. I think the technology is great and will likely improve over time. When combined with high quality photos you have a strong idea for what you are buying. Way to go!
The speed of uptake and venues adopting it will be interesting to track. Some sellers will be reluctant to use the technology given it will expose some problem coins that might otherwise attract a bid with a photo.
I think this is fantastic and applaud @JBatDavidLawrence for embracing technology and providing it. I think we all agree, as of now, NOTHING will replace holding a coin in hand and viewing it with your own 2 eyes, but this is a huge step forward in my opinion. Wouldn't be surprised if in the not too distant future, some type of gif/video were fairly standard for coins on dealer sites/auction sites.
Heritage has done this sort of thing for a few years on selected (expensive) coins.
It would be great to see the Hansen Collection this way
I like the way you think!
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
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President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Without a doubt but it will also have the effect of self selecting out problem coins for those who want to avoid them. If enough people use it, anyway.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Another feature request for this concept: Ability to select light source: choosing diffused, point, and in the middle. Maybe even tilt to the horizon feature where you can “put” the light nearer to parallel to the coin and raise it to perpendicular. Lots of work but if it can be pulled off it would be almost as good as in hand and with the benefit of not being in a light flooded coin show floor.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
I viewed a couple of the coins on your site, and found them a bit difficult to watch compared with other animated gifs, and I think I figured out why...
It seems that your camera is set on autofocus, and the focus is "pumping" during image capture. You can see the coins change in "size" slightly at different light angles due to the focal plane changing. The effect is very obnoxious (at least to my eyes) and contributes to the feeling of dizziness one feels when viewing them. It's like being on a tilt-a-whirl rather than a flat teacup carnival ride...the third axis moving makes you much dizzier than just two.
This would be very easy to fix by shooting in manual focus mode.
I assume you've seen the animations done by @RonSanderson, which I prefer to the nuTilts mainly because they don't rotate around continuously. Instead, they rock back and forth, more like you would view in-hand. They don't make me as dizzy as the continuously-rotating ones.
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I'm impressed. Cool feature for sure. Nice job, @JBatDavidLawrence and team.
Appreciate the comments and feedback from you all.
I wanted to mention that the web version of nuTilt currently available on DLRC is one piece of the puzzle.
Attached is a little taste of what's to come. In early September, we intend to release nuTilt in full. This includes another piece of the puzzle - apps for iOS and Android. Our plan is to make the app, and viewing coins in nuTilt, FREE to anyone. The apps have a host of features not seen in the GIF below. We're excited to share it with you soon.
Toned Morgan aficionado and nuTilt guy.
They're going to be way too large and a lot of mobile devices will choke on them which is at least half of internet traffic now. The above image of the image is 3.5MB which is ridiculous for an internet image. The actual images I've seen so far are over twice that.
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man, MAN... I had this exact idea in my head for a while, but lacked the ability to program for android to make it happen. In a nutshell, images with an assigned Y and Z axis angles displayed based on the device accelerometer angle reading?
Glad someone is getting it out there- Way to go DLRC!
Understand that it isn't just an image file and 3.5MB is nothing these days, just a few seconds of data transfer maybe. If your phone or network is bogging down on that it's time to update.
Collector, occasional seller
3.5 MB is for a low-resolution image. If the GIF file that is served to the device is 1000x1000 it's closer to 35 MB. If you're on a bourse floor, hotel, dubious public wifi, that's hit-or-miss.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Agreed. 35MB could be trickier in those places. But if you are on the floor, you can see the coin in person! Sitting at my house, downloading a 35MB file takes an average of 1 second. So, that’s very palatable to get a more in-depth look at an item I’d be interested in. Out on my LTE, we’re talking 8 seconds for a 35MB file, so a bit more time consuming, but still acceptable. If you are looking at a whole catalog, it’s a much different story than just a few coins that tickle your fancy.
This is awesome! I wan't wait to see more of this.
I wonder if it's possible to get some edge view in there so when you tilt it you can see part of the edge?
Imagine a version where you are tilting the entire slab? It would be just like holding a slab in your hand
I agree the middle one is a bit odd compared to the rest.
It might be good if there was a start and stop button.
That's what the app does. Since animated GIFs loop forever on autopilot, you need the app or something else a little more sophisticated than a browser (ImageJ, for example), to take control of the looping.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I agree it would need to be a bit more sophisticated, but on DLRC's website, they could have a JavaScript "app" that uses a button to replace the animated GIF with a static one and vice versa.
Here's a message from Center for Persons with Disabilities:
https://webaim.org/techniques/images/
Here's a note on controls for items over 5 seconds.
Here's a message a "strobing" images causing seizures. I don't know if these would qualify as "strobing", but I don't think anyone would want to be the cause of this so it may be worth checking out.
The look of the app is exactly what I’d want. And I imagine most of the usage of this will be for coins that probably a person is shopping for at home. I don’t think data will be an issue, especially given how many people use unlimited data plans now.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
My third post in this thread, I mention this problem but I guess no one thought I was serious. I have actually designed websites and programmed with accessibility in mind (it's the law now). 15 years ago I built an e-commerce website for the blind and visually impaired where the product sold was a computer program that taught math to the blind/visually impaired. The users of the website all used screen readers. The way it is implemented onto the DLRC website right now is ABSOLUTELY asking for a lawsuit from someone. There are people that look for harmful things like this, coordinate with handicap groups and file class action lawsuits. The fast looping animated gifs on the DLRC website are just asking for trouble because they have a high likelihood for causing seizures in some people. I built the first e-commerce for an NFL team in 2002 and I have most recently run an e-commerce site for a national shoe retailer. I don't dabble in things for your grandma's neighborhood sewing club. Things like this need to be taken seriously or you will find yourself in a deep mess that you DO NOT want any part of...promise!
All of that said, the App seems to show real promise but I would get those crazy gifs off the website now.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Maybe a 2- or 4-quadrant composite image with a nuTilt logo on it would work to show that clicking on it would open the app to display the multiple lighting angles.
If you weren’t already aware, the phone apps are out. It’s a good start. There are some usability and feature requests I’d have but it is a nice way to see some coins if you’re going to see them digitally.
I’ll also add that nutilt’s privacy policy indicates that they may siphon anything and everything. So just be aware. I use a pi hole to block most of the crud forced on us but if you are privacy oriented then be aware.
https://nutilt.com/marketing/privacy
TurtleCat Gold Dollars