Ebay stolen coin claim when "delivered"?
logger7
Posts: 8,567 ✭✭✭✭✭
When a buyer says that a coin was stolen, what evidence should be required before you refund their money. I got this claim today:
"Hello, I received the EBay envelope in the mail on the 19th. The back of the envelope had a slice in it and the only thin inside was the invoice, the coin apparently fell out some point after this had occurred through the postal system. I didn’t notice the slice at first until I went to open the envelope, it was on the back side of the envelope and looked like it may have got caught in the sorting machine. There was no notice of damage stamped on the envelope by the postal service. ..."
I asked for images of the packaging, as I ship with ebay purchased plastic padded envelopes. On more expensive items I either ship with priority packaging additionally or double bag the certified items.
Comments
Was any material wrapped around the coin before it was placed inside the envelope?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
At first I would start with reviewing the buyer's feedback information, number of successful purchases, etc., as sometimes that additional information will help you decide how best to proceed.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
The machines do not cut envelopes. They may tear them apart though. Their story is to subjective, it is not factual. They are providing their opinion as to what happened. I take it that you did not insure the package?
Food for thought. When I have received loose coins, the seller puts them between folded over cardboard that is the width of the envelope. They tape the cardboard shut. This prevents a coin from moving around, making the contents less obvious - plus more secure.
When I sold some silver many years ago, I only shipped them Priority Mail with tracking, in a small Priority Mail box.
I use ebay provided padded envelopes, I double wrap them sometimes.
I’ll ask again: Was any material wrapped around the coin before it was placed inside the envelope?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I recently had a buyer claim that the package was not delivered and he had a camera by his door. I emailed him the tracking information which not only showed time of delivery but also the location where it was left (Front porch).
Never heard back from him.
Sometimes I think that animals are smarter than humans, animals would never allow the dumbest one to lead the pack
Slice sounds fishy
If tracking shows delivered it is between him & the PO.....you are off the hook.
This is not true. I am going through a battle right now with a member here who after 176 days filed a item not as described/ one of the 2 coins was not received.
Tracking showed the package was left specifically with a person at the address. I submitted everything to PayPal and PayPal has delayed their "ruling" 6 times. Absolutely absurd.
In eyes of PayPal you are still on the hook until 180 days have passed.
It's a mess.
I’ve never had that happen to me when sent in a priority box. Even a bubble envelope when taped properly it hasn’t happened. But like others have said if it was delivered you’re off the hook.
No, it still gets settled through eBay.
One of my eBay packages (in this case, a cardboard envelope) arrived torn with a roll of quarters missing. I let the seller know, and returned the empty package to him. He instructed me to open a case with eBay so they could rule on it.
eBay determined that neither I nor the seller were at fault and issued me a courtesy refund (meaning the funds came from eBay rather than the seller).
I ship coins in a Safe-T-Mailer with the packing slip wrapped around it and then inserted into a #0 bubble mailer. The packaging would have to be destroyed before the coin could be extricated from it. FWIW.
The fact that the guy waited two days to make a claim like this raises red flags. I have shipped hundreds of parcels with only two parcels with a claim like this; the other claim turned out to be a false one that the usps was on to. This ended up as a closed case as the guy provided no images.
I've had three delivery issues via ebay buys. 1rst was a slabbed 1829 bust dime that was delivered and the slab got cracked in transit (I think it was from logger IIRC). The second was two slabbed coins I bought but there was only one in the package. The third was a copy stand that got broken in transit. In each case I contacted sellers within hours of receipt. All 3 probably thought I was legit because of my feedback, and I was legit, and I supplied images. All worked out a deal for me which I appreciate. Shipments do show up with problems sometimes and the dealer has to make a call on what to do. Lucky me I had the feedback to support. Good luck with this.
Best, SH
I wasn’t blaming you - sorry you took it that way. I was trying to better understand how likely it was that the coin could have been removed as claimed by the recipient.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I was lucky when this happened to me....I ordered 2 coins and when I went to the PO to pick up the package, I signed and took about 10 steps out the door and hadn't planned on opening the package until later (I was on my way to work when I stopped and got it).
I saw a slit cut into the back that wasn't that noticeable unless I pressed against the manila envelope. I walked right back in (they knew me) and showed the hole and opened it in front of them. There was 1 coin in there (still wrapped in paper).
I let the seller know and the USPS employee with me gave me her contact info if it was needed.
Someone, somewhere in the system, got a nice 1855 slanted 5s raw large cent if I remember correctly
I don't think it was the machines at all.
If I hadn't picked it up and noticed that, if my wife had like when I used to go on business trips, it could easily have sat, unnoticed, for a week or more. I would have "made a claim" 7+ days after the package showed as "delivered"......would you have questioned me the same way?
As for how it was packaged...that IS pretty relevant. I have had someone on ebay ship me a single, raw, SAE LOOSE in a small manila envelope. Depending on circumstances, it could easily have gone against the envelope, ripped open, and been gone.
You might not like how Mark asks the question, but it is pertinent and part of understanding this. You came on here wanting to complain but most folks on here will either gang on or want all pertinent info. Mark isn't one to "gang on" and he does like to have info. What's wrong with saying HOW you packaged it in the bubble mailer?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Just sent an insured package that buyer said he did not receive despite the PO having listed it as delivered. We asked him to file an official report with the postal service reminding him it is illegal to file a false or misrepresented claim. The package was miraculously found a couple hours later.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
I bought a coin...a silver Dollar 1 time. When I pulled my mail out of my PO box there was the classic Silver Dollar hitting the floor. How it made it into my PO Box is beyond me. Just the dollar loose in a manila envelope. I messaged the seller to let him know we had been lucky and never received a reply.
How a coin is packaged is a major factor in how many are lost.
Not much you can do here except refund the money and file whatever insurance claim you might have. Cost of doing business, I'm afraid. There is no way to prove that the customer is lying - even assuming that they are. There is also no evidence they could provide that couldn't be faked. IT wouldn't be very hard to send you a picture of a slice in an envelope.
i stopped using bubble mailers years ago, the main reason was because of some of the problems with them that i read on this site, one person had a slabbed coin broke in hundreds of pieces, trading cards smashed, etc, i only ship in boxes now, they are very reasonable and you can buy different sizes in the same order
I have started putting small flat rate boxes inside of the flat rate padded envelope that can be ordered free from USPS. Postage for the envelope is only a few more cents than the small flat rate box and provides me double wrapping of the shipments. I even put a copy of the shipping label on the small flat rate box in case it gets separated from the envelope during shipment.
For items that are a tad to big for a small flat rate box I step up in size to the non-flat rate Priority box # 1096L that can be ordered free from USPS. They used to call this the VCR cassette box. It also fits nicely in the flat rate padded envelope.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
You could have just said yes or no.
I received a package such as this once. A razor like slice cut in the envelope and nothing inside. I called the seller and he didn't even miss a beat or seem concerned at all and just said, these things happen sometimes, and promptly returned my money. I was shocked as I expected I would have to eat the loss. The seller seemed so unconcerned about the situation I wondered if perhaps he had already sold the coin and instead of saying anything to me he simply shipped an empty envelope with a small slit.
Seated Dollar Collection
I have received envelopes like that. I ship with coin wrapped in bubble wrap and taped to shipping invoice so that envelope will be empty if arrived but coin will stay with invoice in case found in USPS shipping areas.
Wow. Paranoid much? LOL.
Professional sellers expect the occasional loss. We also know that there is no real way to fight such a claim and, for small amounts of money, it is simply not worth the effort.
I once received message from a seller (gold coin) that he shipped two packages (mine and another) the same day at his P.O., and the other party received an empty package....he was suspicious of the handler at his P.O. who asked about the contents. I had not received mine yet, but he warned me. Sure enough, the package came, and had been opened, no coin inside. I contacted him with the results and sent a picture of the package. He made good on the coin, and went after the P.O. - heard later that the guy went to jail, but coins not recovered. Nasty experience... Cheers, RickO
Not paranoid at all, I just wondered at the time based on all of the factors at my disposal. Those are two very distinctly different scenarios. I didn't think it was funny then I still don't think it is funny now.
Seated Dollar Collection
The guy's case was closed by him, as he provided no pictures of the damage, etc.. He said something about doing a return which doesn't make sense to me. Ebay said they were on my side on this.
Glad to hear it worked out! When I mail one or two coins in a small USPS Priority box I securely tape it to the middle of the inside of the box so if it gets accidentally breached there's no way it can just fall out. Also there's no rattling of any sort and the box feels empty.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I do not view the two day delay as a red flag. I've certainly waited that long to open packages. Or he could have opened it a day later and then contacted the seller a day after that. Particularly if it wasn't a high value item it could be a low priority for the buyer. If I bought a $50 item that was stolen/lost in transit I'm not worrying about sprinting to my computer right away.
I agree if a couple weeks had passed it would be more suspicious, but contacting within a few days or so seems pretty reasonable.
However, your steps of requesting pictures was good. I personally put some onus on the recipient, such as when someone claimed a high value item was stolen from their porch to file a police report and provide a copy. I did have a customer who claimed a non-coin item was stolen from their porch. We were suspicious, so we slow played things a bit and sure enough the customer emailed a couple days later with technical questions about how to use their new item.
I bought a really nice XF Standing Liberty quarter one time (15 years ago), and it came loose in a #2 envelope.
Still amazes me to made it.
Dave
I know this might not help anybody right now, but hard shell 8x4x2 boxes cost 20-30 cents each. I bubble wrap my slabs, tape a bubble mailer closed and secure it in a box so it doesnt bang around.
$3 loose 90% silver is my max on mailers and I dont ship slabs in anything but a box anymore, specifically because of this.
I should never read these topics when I have boxes in transit.
My Saint Set
Nearly a week after the parcel showed delivered, he sent me pictures of the cut padded mailer and I refunded him instantly. He said the ebay system was not permitting him to send me images, he took two days after delivery to contact me on the issue. $35 Morgan. I need to do better with sturdier packaging, usps did not pull the obviously damaged parcel as they are supposed to do. So a Morgan dollar in a 2x2 is sitting somewhere looking for it's owner.
