Please report on Ebay
zas107
Posts: 831 ✭✭✭
zas107
Posts: 831 ✭✭✭
zas107
Posts: 831 ✭✭✭
Comments
Reported.
Photos
Thanks for uploading the photos for posterity!.
uploaded pictures 75 seconds before me. grrr
I'll bet some of the sold listings will turn out bad.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/collectionsguru/m.html?LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2046732.m1684
Yeh... looking at some of the sold items.... look pretty fake to me also.
I can see that the label is counterfeit. No gradation. With 40 years in printing, I can see that a mile away.
Good job, just another fake 93S. As I've said before, only one obverse die was used, if the date isn't in this position, specifically the 1, it's no good period, no debate. The easiest Morgan to authenticate.
Gone!
All gone...good work, and thanks for the pictures. Cheers, RickO
Hi, I just got approved to this forum's membership and I was referred here by Mr. Feld from Heritage auctions.
An intro, I'm not new to forums by no means, I'm on a couple different metal detecting forums and years before that I was a long time member on a motorcycle forum. This is my first Actual Coin Currency forum.
My Name is Mark and I live in West Virginia
I'm a FAR shot from being a serious coin collector! but due to my older brothers and other family members interest in coins and of course metal detecting mainly coins I've ALWAYS been interested in coins, I still have my first Official R.S. Yeoman Red Book from 1965 18th Edition (Yes, I have the 74th edition 2021 LOL)
I do have a somewhat complete Lincoln Cent collection from 1909-2021 and I have as far as I know all the memorial Proofs and I've started on acquiring the Wheat Cent proofs working on 1958 and going backwards. I've had the collection sense 1981
Okay, enough of that.
I was routed here via Mr. Felds because of a resent acquaintance of mine that led to him (Tom) talking about some coins that was left behind that belonged to his dad (as the story goes). This started out with his brother having them, I liked the sound of this (interesting) and he said he could get them and then send me pictures of them, he informed that he didn't know ANYTHING about the world of coins and he didn't know that his dad ever had a coin collection, Bla...bla....
So, several days later I get these cellphone pics of these coins, and I get my 2021 coin book out and I'm BLOWN away at this small lot of a treasure trove of coins!. (Mine & Tom's connection is long distance, about 800 miles)
Now, we're getting down to the meat as to why I'm here, and I'm trying to get better pictures of the coins (all of them)
I contacted Mr. Feld about the process of getting such rare coins listed onto auction and I included the below pictures, and I got a pretty quick response of "Its A Fake"!!! I'm thinking wait a minute its slabbed and graded! bla...bla.....
Well I knew that counterfeits existed but I didn't have a CLUE to such a magnitude. So, in the past week or so I've been on a GIANT coin counterfeit learning curve. Meaning I need people that are more EXPERT than me now to help me out.
I'm getting a decent idea about the counterfeit coins WITH TONS of stuff to still learn (one reason I'm here) But I'm clueless to anything about the counterfeit slab cases and certification labels. Can we start there?
About this coin,
I had sent this pic to Mr. Feld, a couple of days later Mr.Feld sends me a link to this forum page about a coin with the EXACT certification number, thinking it may have been the same coin, to which I don't believe so.
PLEASE! I'm not trying to scam anybody, I'm just needing information to help me proceed with Tom's coins, and I have three Wheat Cents that are MINE in hand that I would like to get you're all thoughts about later on!
Notice the certification number on this one vs the one here being discussed? (He has another unslabbed more worn 1893-S) PLUS other silver dollars that I'd like to talk about, more pictures are coming.
If the case and label is fake what's the detail that gives it away? and is the coin fake, (working on better pictures)
Thanks everyone for any and all help!!!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
welcome to the forum.
the #1 thing that gives that holder and coin away as counterfeit, is experience. myself and many others recognize this as a fraud within 1-2 seconds of looking at it after having studied at great length and seeing MANY images of similar ones. that said, the letters/numbers on the insert are not even close to a match to authentic pcgs inserts, even with the myriad of types/colors out there. the color is even off a bit imo. at least one person has referred to the coin and the position of the date. 1 obv and 2 rev dies are known for the 93-s $1 morgan. ANY variance in position of date and/or mm along with other diagnostics i won't go into, MUST be spot on or red flags go up.
counterfeit detection for numismatics is a study and field unto itself covering coins, medals, tokens currency and more.
hands-down, the #1 tool for me has been simple image comparisons. get a set of professional-level images for the coin in question, put them side by side and repeat 10,000 times or more. conversation here is fantastic. immense, essentially infinite amount of experience on these boards on all numismatic subjects.
enjoy and happy hunting.
@MarkW63 Welcome to the forums.
I'd have to agree with Mark Feld from heritage auctions. He is an expert in this field.
What gives this off as a fake coin in a fake holder to me is the lettering on label doesn't look right. Also it doesn't make sense for the counterfeiter to buy a real coin to put into a fake holder. The coin also looks to grade way higher than a 45 if it were genuine.
Collector
75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics
Everything about that "1893-S" posted by @MarkW63 above is fake. The holder is counterfeit, the label is counterfeit and the piece inside (the "coin") is counterfeit. This is not a vintage counterfeit piece, so if you are fed a story about it being in a collection for decades then you know immediately that either the seller is lying to you or the seller is ignorant of the true history.
By the way Mark Feld is one of the leading numismatists of our generation in terms of knowledge, integrity, reputation and willingness (and ability) to help folks of all levels. Listen to him.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Welcome to the forum Mark!
If the case and label is fake what's the detail that gives it away?
One thing that may be easy for a beginning collector to spot, the barcode below the 5 & 3 looks like it would not scan correctly.
It could just be the photo but I would guess print quality on the label.
Thanks Folks, GREAT replies.
Okay, this guys father wasn't know to have a LONG time collection, but these turned up at his death about 4 years ago, so the history back beyond 4 years is UNKNOWN!
Now, here is a better picture of the EXACT same coin, he also has a Slabbed 1895-O but I don't have a great picture of it yet.
Later I will post a list of the cache of coins later. There was 4 Gold coin to start with but his brother said he wanted to keep those, so I removed them from the list.
I can see the misplacement of the date stamp as mentioned above.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Below is the entire list of the coins, except for now I don't have good pictures of the either 1895 and one of the trade dollars, I'm working on acquiring better pictures of the other three coins.
The 1916 quarter is a terrible counterfeit, I just got a good picture of 16-D dime and that's a harder one for me to tell if its real or not. I worked this list up early on before I got involved if in what's real and what's counterfeited.
List!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Given what we have seen already, and what you wrote about the 1916 quarter being a terrible counterfeit, I think we can reasonably assume that many (most? all?) of the pieces with purported high values will be counterfeits.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
This looks to be a train wreck, if the rest of the high dollar coins are as fake as the 93-S.
Lance.
Well, I'm starting to get the same feeling (Train Wreck)
Lets look at the 1889-CC ignore the grade, I just looked at some detail and matched some details up with the Red Book for just a starting point!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Well, here is that quarter,
I know the Head wrong,
The emblem on the shield is wrong,
The right hand (fingers) are wrong,
and so on!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
The 89-cc and the 1916 are both counterfeit
Unfortunately the 1889CC and the 1916 SLQ are also all fakes.
Collector
75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics
Okay, I don't have any doubts about the observations here, but could I have a couple of specific details of what is yelling FAKE about these coins as we move along, The reason is pretty soon I will be contacted the owner of these and at that time I would like to have enough info about the certain pieces that I can go back to the coin's picture and edit in some pointers and circles like I did for the 16 quarter (below)
Also, I'm thinking about posted pictures of the 16-D Mercury Dime and was wondering if it would be a good idea to start a new thread for it to keep from littering this silver dollar thread with other coinage? (and I the same idea for my three Lincoln Wheat Cents, I'm getting a bad feeling about them now, & I had a PCGS authorized coin dealer look at them yesterday, he gave my 09-S VDB a 60% chance of being real, and no better for one of my 14-D one 14-D he said was GOOD!
I'm getting a real bad sinking feeling about now.
It's just amazing to me that the counterfeit coin market had become near industrialized so to speak, I knew knock offs existed but I never thought it had come to this.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Sorry. Still all counterfeits and they appear to be modern counterfeits. If you search certain websites you may be able to buy these in bulk for perhaps a dollar each.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
At this point post whatever ya got here. Please post the rest of what you have.
This mark on the breast is common on fake CC's
Take the 1916 quarter. The big mistake the counterfeiters made here is that they tried to duplicate the reverse of the type-2 quarter which wasn't used until 1917. The 1916 quarter had 7 stars on the left and 6 stars on the right. The 1917 type-2 and later quarters had 5 stars left, 4 stars right, and 3 stars below the eagle (as on this fake).
Such a careless error. Many better fakes are not so sloppy and require a little more effort to detect. Always look at the shape of letters and numbers. See how comical they are on the fake below?
Lance.
COUNTERFEIT
GENUINE
Mark, you may want to go to Alibaba.com and Aliexpress.com and look at a lot of fakes being made today in China (these are both Chinese sites that sell fake US coins, slabbed and raw). I visit them often just to see what is coming down the pike. The 89CC is a common Chinese fake made in the past 2+ years or so. The gash on the eagle's breast feathers, the die break between the wing tip and S in States and the dot of metal just above and to the left of the D in Dollar are easy pick up points. I have an 1885CC sitting on my desk made from that same reverse die (impossible at the Mint of course).
bob
Poof
Great eye to the OP along with this group to rid the garbage .
SUPERB👍👍
Interesting. I have a fake with what seems to be the same reverse die but its a 1878CC
Collector
75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics
@Kliao I have an 1880, 1881 and the 1885 and 1989 as well.
bob
Above someone ask to just keep posting the other coins here.
Next up lets try one that I think is going to be harder. I saw a video online about this coin and the guy said that he felt it's possible that this coin could (& some others) may have more counterfeits than the real coin. He went on to say that he has seen some of these so well counterfeited that he believed it (???) possible (???) that with some grading services they could have passed thru they service undetected, but he had never found one.
Here is the 1916-D Mercury dime.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
The 16D is a counterfeit.....100% sure
Okay, are these counterfeits Morgan's made with the worn looks?
Also, I read on an online site that the counterfeiter of these Morgan's used FAT (blooded) mint date numbers as compared to the much more finer lined better detailed US mint numbers, True, False? and is that with just certain dates?
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Also, on the other forums I'm on I get notifications to new comments in threads I've posted in, should I be getting notifications from here?
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Your notifications will show in the top right corner by your user name and where you log out.
I realize you wrote you are new to coins, but everything you have shared with us has been counterfeit of the worst quality.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The 1916D merc is also fake. The Liberty head looks very grumpy.
Collector
75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics
The counterfeiter used a real coin(s) to make false dies. His dies are not sharp as they lose the detail and sharpness in the process of making the fake dies. That's why his coins look MUSHY or FAT as you call it.
bob
Well, I'm not new to coin collecting, but I'm new to world of the upper valuable RARE coins! I have a NEAR complete Lincoln cent collection that I've been working on sense 1981
I've been metal detecting coins sense around 81 as well. I've always had a Red Red Coin guild around available sense at lest 1965. But! my short coming is in THE RARE above my income grade (WAY ABOVE) so, I never had any reason of my own to dive into the deep dark work of the counterfeits, my Red Book on certain coins states BEWARE of counterfeits, and for the 14-D Lincoln Cent it state there is NO VDB on the shoulder of a genuine 14-D and I knew about the chopped up first 4
So far the coin pic I've posted are NOT mine!
I've never held a $19,000.00 coin in my hand!
They belong to someone else that I came across, and at first he claimed to not know ANYTHING about the world of coins and I was excited to be get involved with the THOUGHT to be real treasure trove of coins and help him sort out some possibilities with verifying them and maybe a market avenue. I figured this would be my only ONCE in a life time chance to maybe be involved with a valuable coin cache!
I had told this person earlier on that he needed to be careful of scam pawn shops, some coin dealers, and selling them on ebay until more research was done.
I was hoping that a couple of his coins may be real, but so far NOPE! I doubt I will post many more of them, I'm still working on getting pictures of the two 1895 but, I'm looking at Saturday evening to have a phone call with the owner of the coins and discussing my findings about the industrialized world of counterfeit coins, (that's what I DIDN'T know)
Where I'm at now other than deflated is with a coin that is MINE! I currently OWN it, in hand and Mr. Feld has looked at the pictures, requested some more pictures and suggested me posting the pictures HERE! I don't know this but he may check in on the feedback, he mentioned looking at the dime I posted.
So, my next post with be my penny and I do have stock in, and I may have gotten burnt on, and I may not be able to get a refund on!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Thank You Sir!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Okay, this is MY penny!
This past Monday I took it for a 70 mile round trip to a authorized PCGS dealer to look at it, in total three staff members looked at and concluded (gave it) a 60% chance of being genuine. He said coins like that he wouldn't buy without them being certified.
Next, I don't have any HIGH tech equipment like Thousand dollar coinscopes, I did this past weekend acquire a budget (Low Cost) computer microscope.
Unless I dig a more valuable coin out of the ground this one (or its replacement) will be the most money I'll ever be able to put into a coin, if this is fake I'm not sure I'll be able to get my money back, it was an honor system transaction, so, I could take total loss on this, which will set me back at lest 6 months at shopping for another one.
Take a serious look, make your best judgement-s I'll brace myself.
Okay, now in the next picture I started with the 1909S-VDB and I used the microscope's software to add an alignment grid, the lower line at the bottom of the tails of the 9's was drawn in via computer mouse (hand drawn)
With the microscope at the same settings and the grid lines still in place I took a 1909S (No VDB) from my collection and put it under the microscope, I framed it as close as possible using the grid lines as the 09S-VDB.
Then I took the unchanged images of both copied & Pasted them into a single frame and used the grid line to align both photos. No! I cannot get a full image of the coin in view under the microscope.
The "No VDB is much more worn and is pictured to the right.
Mr. Feld was interested in better pictures of the serifs, I tried to do better but this is all have (the best I can do)
To get this certified I'd be into it another $100.00 PLUS and to just possible get it back in a baggie with a one word note,
"Counterfeit" which would add insult to injury. So, my thoughts were if its an obvious fake??? then it would save me that much money.
Thanks A bunch everyone!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I'm going to guess you see this one coming.
Save your money.....it's not a genuine svdb.
This post in just for conversation,
in my two Lincoln cent albums this page is my favorite, I've got all 20 minted issues of 2009 in either UNC or proofs or other Non proof mint sets.
Who knows maybe someday my grand kids will inherit a REAL coin collection!
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Well, I stated that I own this one, its mine, now if its a phony the question will be when I mail it back to the person I got it from will they be honorable enough to make it right.
So, what's your key counterfeit give away's on the svdb?
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I read like a broken record, but there is no way, no how that the 1909-S VDB is authentic. I also likely read like an incredible jerk, but I don't know how someone with experience wouldn't realize these counterfeits were bad, bad, bad immediately.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The overall look of the coin just looks off. The serifs on the mintmark are suppose to be parallel which they aren't. The bottom serif looks more rounded.
Where did you buy the coin? If its from eBay and not over their money back guarantee policy you can get a refund for the coin.
Collector
75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics