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Thoughts on this true scenario

A dealer has a nice unc seated half in stock for several months, but at a relatively high price, it sits there with no action.
The coin shows up at GreatCollections, as a no reserve auction.
You track the coin, bid on the coin, and at the last minute get bid up by the same anonymous bidder 3 times (not auto bids) and lose the coin.
The very next day that coin is listed back in the original dealers inventory at the same list price it sat on for months.
What are your thoughts?

Comments

  • ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps the dealer was testing the GC marketplace.

    He took a 10% hit to find out on that particular coin.

    Your results may vary.

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 11,365 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2020 10:17AM

    Sounds like TomB nailed it.

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  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What @ErrorsOnCoins said.
    That makes the most sense to me.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yep... @TomB and @ErrorsOnCoins have nailed it....Cheers, RickO

  • AlongAlong Posts: 466 ✭✭✭✭

    Seems like this is more common than people might guess

  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 8,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020 7:52AM

    I used to think there is some rabid bidder out there sometimes who just has to have it when I lose certain online auctions but the agent / assistant theory makes more sense. Thanks for sharing.

    This may be fallout from covid - people desperate to move their big ticket inventory items (demise of shows).

    However it’s been going on before I would bet.

    Coins & Currency
  • AngryTurtleAngryTurtle Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭

    @Southcounty , percentagewise, what was the difference from your max bid, and the dealers asking price on the coin? It must have been more than the 10% vig at GC.

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 9,010 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree, expose it to the market and yank it back after some kind of value is created. Peace Roy

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  • ElKevvoElKevvo Posts: 4,118 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020 10:26AM

    I agree with TomB about the dealer or dealer's agent , I think the goal is to run the price up as high as possible and let it sell. In this case most likely they were trying to get more than the dealer had been listing it at and just got stuck with it. Now they have another 10% sunk into it so will be even less likely to move on the price!

    K

    ANA LM
  • SouthcountySouthcounty Posts: 653 ✭✭✭✭

    @AngryTurtle said:
    @Southcounty , percentagewise, what was the difference from your max bid, and the dealers asking price on the coin? It must have been more than the 10% vig at GC.

    The coin was and is listed at $3,950.

    My last bid including the buyers fee was $3,622.50
    They won it back with buyers fee included at $3,735.00
    The Next bid with buyers fee would have been $3,847.50
    The last bidder other than the winner and myself was out at $3,060
    PCGS Guide $3750.
    Those calculations were at the 12.5% buyers fee.

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,548 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What are the ethics in what TomB described? What if after the consignors bid, the OP would have bid again, but this time the consignor was happy, so he allowed it to be sold? In effect, isn’t that exactly shilling, which I thought was prohibited? While GC can’t tell if this was an agent bidding on behalf of the consignor, it could be brought to Ian’s attention that the coin is now back in the consignors website! I’d be real pi—-d if I ended up the high bidder on a coin and the consignor or his/her friend was the underbidder!!!

    Thoughts?

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB and possibly @ErrorsOnCoins are correct.

    Since @Southcounty did his homework, he saw the ruse.

    Question. Did you ever approach the dealer about a price other than what he had it listed for? I don't deal but I am a businessman. If I'm advertising at $3950. and someone calls me to discuss, and it's sitting, I think I would want to listen to $3635. (basically what you bid it up to). That's only 8%, and if you trusted me enough to drop me a check (not sure how trusted a dealer this is) or another no / low fee way to pay me, then I'd be a fool not to consider it.

    @winesteven Ethical? No ... but it happens ... a lot more than some people might think. Bid in enough auction venues, and I wouldn't be surprised if you have had it happen to you, even if you don't know it.

    For the dealers and flippers that do it, it's a fine line of when to push and when to stand down, but it's been going on in auctions forever, and I can't imagine that has changed. I never partook in such activities, but I know people who did, and I was asked to be the under-bidder a few times until word got around I wasn't playing.


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
  • bombtech25bombtech25 Posts: 209 ✭✭✭

    How the suspected practice is spoken of in this thread is interesting.
    1. Bought the coin back
    2. Testing the market place
    3. Shilling

    I’ll go with description 3. It’s an attempt to deprive someone else of money through deception.

  • SouthcountySouthcounty Posts: 653 ✭✭✭✭

    I was ac> @pursuitofliberty said:

    @TomB and possibly @ErrorsOnCoins are correct.

    Since @Southcounty did his homework, he saw the ruse.

    Question. Did you ever approach the dealer about a price other than what he had it listed for? I don't deal but I am a businessman. If I'm advertising at $3950. and someone calls me to discuss, and it's sitting, I think I would want to listen to $3635. (basically what you bid it up to). That's only 8%, and if you trusted me enough to drop me a check (not sure how trusted a dealer this is) or another no / low fee way to pay me, then I'd be a fool not to consider it.

    I had been watching it consistently for several months and ironically the day I finally decided to reach out to them to see if they would take an offer, to my surprise it was gone from their inventory. That same day I noticed it at GreatCollections and thought this might work out even better than an offer. I tracked it for two weeks and bid on it and something did not sit quite right with me on how I was bid up so consistently at the end so out of curiosity I checked the original dealers inventory the next day and it was right back like it had never left.

    I actually sent the dealer a polite message a few days later and informed them that I was the underbidder and despite the fact that it appeared like I was bidding against them I would still be interested to hear if they would consider a net price. They never responded and ignored the correspondence.

    I purchased a few coins from this dealer many years ago and never had any issues at that time.

    If you knew a dealer took part in this sort of activity would you:
    Be more likely to work with them in the future?
    Be less likely to work with them in the future?
    Or neutral on working with them in the future?

  • winestevenwinesteven Posts: 4,548 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020 5:05PM

    I would not work with them, and any action that could be proven, I would share with others.

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • pursuitoflibertypursuitofliberty Posts: 6,959 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting on the timing. How many times have I looked, looked, looked, and then finally went, yeah, I want that coin and find it gone.

    Based on what you say happened after the auction, I would be less inclined to deal with them in the future.

    If I reach out, respond. It can be, a simple "not interested", "we don't negotiate prices", even "go away" ... but please respond.

    If we're communicating you have a chance for my hard earned money. If we're not, well, frankly, you can kiss my a**

    YMMV


    “We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”

    Todd - BHNC #242
  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @winesteven said:
    What are the ethics in what TomB described? What if after the consignors bid, the OP would have bid again, but this time the consignor was happy, so he allowed it to be sold? In effect, isn’t that exactly shilling, which I thought was prohibited? While GC can’t tell if this was an agent bidding on behalf of the consignor, it could be brought to Ian’s attention that the coin is now back in the consignors website! I’d be real pi—-d if I ended up the high bidder on a coin and the consignor or his/her friend was the underbidder!!!

    Thoughts?

    My thoughts are:

    A. The OP should have snipe bid with his maximum at the very end of the auction; and
    B. If he got outbid doing so, it's irrelevant whether it was by the consignor or anyone else. He didn't win at the price he was willing to pay.

    But I can understand how others would see the situation as unethical.

  • JimWJimW Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭

    That would be a 'less likely' for me!

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  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 8,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020 6:31PM

    Online auction bidding has been up with covid demise of shows. Perhaps they hoping 2 heavy hitters would get in bid war but why gamble paying juice if you lose.

    How did it end up juice and all relative to CDN bid?

    I have to wonder how Much did it cost him in fees and shipping run that end around play. I wonder if others doing this. It answers why was I losing online auction bids I felt were solid.

    Coins & Currency
  • bombtech25bombtech25 Posts: 209 ✭✭✭

    @CoinJunkie said:

    @winesteven said:
    What are the ethics in what TomB described? What if after the consignors bid, the OP would have bid again, but this time the consignor was happy, so he allowed it to be sold? In effect, isn’t that exactly shilling, which I thought was prohibited? While GC can’t tell if this was an agent bidding on behalf of the consignor, it could be brought to Ian’s attention that the coin is now back in the consignors website! I’d be real pi—-d if I ended up the high bidder on a coin and the consignor or his/her friend was the underbidder!!!

    Thoughts?

    My thoughts are:

    A. The OP should have snipe bid with his maximum at the very end of the auction; and
    B. If he got outbid doing so, it's irrelevant whether it was by the consignor or anyone else. He didn't win at the price he was willing to pay.

    But I can understand how others would see the situation as unethical.

    Do you see it as unethical or just understand how somebody else might?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,300 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is this the type of thing that is not allowed on eBay but allowed elsewhere?

  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bombtech25 said:

    @CoinJunkie said:

    @winesteven said:
    What are the ethics in what TomB described? What if after the consignors bid, the OP would have bid again, but this time the consignor was happy, so he allowed it to be sold? In effect, isn’t that exactly shilling, which I thought was prohibited? While GC can’t tell if this was an agent bidding on behalf of the consignor, it could be brought to Ian’s attention that the coin is now back in the consignors website! I’d be real pi—-d if I ended up the high bidder on a coin and the consignor or his/her friend was the underbidder!!!

    Thoughts?

    My thoughts are:

    A. The OP should have snipe bid with his maximum at the very end of the auction; and
    B. If he got outbid doing so, it's irrelevant whether it was by the consignor or anyone else. He didn't win at the price he was willing to pay.

    But I can understand how others would see the situation as unethical.

    Do you see it as unethical or just understand how somebody else might?

    It's borderline in my view. I wouldn't get upset if it happened to me. It's essentially the same as a hidden reserve.

  • ShaunBC5ShaunBC5 Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I did a quick search and it looks like it’s illegal in this country. I knew it was shady, but wasn’t sure about the legality. I’m sure there are lawyers on here who can explain/defend/retort, but it looks like it’s basically illegal (I’m sure there are loopholes).
    It’s a form of bid fixing.

  • No HeadlightsNo Headlights Posts: 2,056 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wouldn’t do business with that dealer based on your information

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