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Master List of the Deceptive Struck Counterfeits

burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,189 ✭✭✭✭✭

A Member here asked me if I had a list by variety of the recent deceptive struck counterfeits we have been documenting since 2015, starting with the 1798 "S-158" large cent (I own 3 of the struck "clones" of this variety) so here it is!

I actually had the opportunity to discuss these and the list in DC in a meeting with Secret Service and the Anti-Counterfeiting Task Force (now known as the "Anti-Counterfeiting Educational Foundation"); I was actually presented the Anti-Counterfeiting Educational Foundation’s Alan Kreuzer Memorial Award last year.

I have since just completed a write-up on the 1871 Patterns $'s and have added it to the list bringing the total documented to 26 with several more in "review".

Best, Jack.

Comments

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2020 1:25PM

    tyvm sir! beat me to the punch. i'm glad you did it. your handywork!

    would cert numbers do any good or have they already been addressed?

    you should've seen the thread i started with known counterfeit certs and later msmorrisine joined in.

    it was beautiful and pure madness.

    apologies. i forgot to say congratulations and keep up the great work.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,805 ✭✭✭✭✭

    :)

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,534 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is this list for any deceptive counterfeit U.S. coin?

    Back when I was at ANACS in the very early 1980's we saw a 1909-SVDB cent that was struck on a 1960 Lincoln cent. Pictures of it with the 1960 date showing were published in the ANACS monthly page and eventually one of the two reprint books of such pages.

    Had that piece been struck on a genuine U.S. cent planchet made before 1962 (as could have been proven via elemental testing looking for a significant trace of tin) we would not have been able to prove that it was counterfeit.

    Tom DeLorey

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,189 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This list is just for the deceptive ones we have seen since being involved in 2015 CaptHenway, from a specific group of counterfeiters using documented genuine source coins to make the dies and strike the clones. We have actually been fortunate to find the source examples through the research and have chased them back to 2008. I call these "deceptive" because everyone in the group has had one or multiple examples TPG certified. This image is of the 1st variety we became aware of, the 1798 "S-158" large cent; the image is before it was also certified "Genuine".

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,061 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2020 12:47AM

    @CaptHenway said:
    Is this list for any deceptive counterfeit U.S. coin?

    Back when I was at ANACS in the very early 1980's we saw a 1909-SVDB cent that was struck on a 1960 Lincoln cent. Pictures of it with the 1960 date showing were published in the ANACS monthly page and eventually one of the two reprint books of such pages.

    Had that piece been struck on a genuine U.S. cent planchet made before 1962 (as could have been proven via elemental testing looking for a significant trace of tin) we would not have been able to prove that it was counterfeit.

    Tom DeLorey

    What tipped you off upon initial inspection?

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @burfle23 .... Congratulations and thank you for your work. Thank you for the list you posted also. Is this available in a publication? Or will it be published? It would be an excellent reference resource. Cheers, RickO

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2020 7:59AM

    @burfle23 said:
    This image is of the 1st variety we became aware of, the 1798 "S-158" large cent; the image is before it >was also certified "Genuine".

    for those of you that don't know,(i know several do) i recognize the flip with that 1798 draped 1c coin is from Bob Grellman, an EAC expert. You may remember him from the video introduction to the sale of Dan Holmes large cents (probably among others). You can send him large cents for attribution/grading opinion/commentary.(i have) His service would be likened to messydesk vam vss service, wiles variety vista etc.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,816 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is anyone collecting the TrueViews for these? I remember seeing a few a while back.

  • oldUScoinsoldUScoins Posts: 232 ✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for your efforts! The worst thing that can happen to a “collecting” hobby is to get to the point nobody can tell the real deal from fakes.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,534 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Is this list for any deceptive counterfeit U.S. coin?

    Back when I was at ANACS in the very early 1980's we saw a 1909-SVDB cent that was struck on a 1960 Lincoln cent. Pictures of it with the 1960 date showing were published in the ANACS monthly page and eventually one of the two reprint books of such pages.

    Had that piece been struck on a genuine U.S. cent planchet made before 1962 (as could have been proven via elemental testing looking for a significant trace of tin) we would not have been able to prove that it was counterfeit.

    Tom DeLorey

    What tipped you off upon initial inspection?

    Another Authenticator, Ingrid Smith, spent some time looking at it and then brought it over to me and said that there was something wrong with the piece but that she could not put her finger on it. I looked at it for about 20 minutes and said that I agreed there was something a bit off about the piece but I could find nothing wrong with it.

    She took it back to her desk and studied it for several minutes more. Suddenly she started swearing in German and called for me to come look at it through her microscope. With the light just right you could see the 1960 date from the understrike. Now that we knew where to look I looked for more of the 1960 strike, and could not find anything.

    Without the understrike date we would probably have certified the coin. I never said that because I did not want to give the counterfeiter ideas.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @burfle23 said:

    .
    here are, for your consideration, some for your master list (from the NNP):

    the 71-s seated half we briefly discussed. it was your avatar? i gave you link to a thread i made here which i got a PDF from one of the big seated guy's website. (NOT NNP)

    1804 50c from that NNP link you provided. (you may have already addressed it in another thread) - nevermind, this is so far as i know is a fantasy piece and read an interesting and humorous note from M. Mehl about the piece he "found" while running down various links from the NNP pages. (LOL, i started to try and run down the marriage for the 1804, as you know, I didn't get very far!)

    1723 Woods Hibernia - NNP

    1785 Bar Cent - NNP

    1785 Immune Colombia - NNP

    do you have a separate section for colonials?

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,189 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My avatar is the 1798 "S-158" large cent; this is the link to the entire "collection" on the NNP: https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/imagecollection/510561

    If you review you will see many are my posts with links to the Coin Week articles published in that forum.

    The "Colonials" from my main focus of current struck fakes only include the Mass "half cent". The 1723 Hibernia was a major find but both it and the Bar "cent" were actually flagged by Newman back in the 70's with both varieties having examples recently submitted for certification and called counterfeits.

    The latest I have researched are fake (1694) Elephant Tokens, certified as genuine and sold by several coin auction venues- this one actually dates back to Newman and a '60's Numismatist article he wrote; they keep resurfacing. I just had my research article on these published in the latest C4 Newsletter.

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @burfle23 said:
    My avatar is the 1798 "S-158" large cent; this is the link to the entire "collection" on the NNP:

    i mis-typed. we discussed the 72-s.

    obviously, it is already on the list. so it is good to go.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,953 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Any gold on this list?

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thebigeng said:
    Any gold on this list?

    not YET. :wink:

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2020 7:15AM

    Again, a note on my list- it is comprehensive to date for what I call the recent "deceptive struck counterfeits". It is not inclusive of all counterfeits "out there"!

    Another short list of what I call "intermediate deceptive" struck fakes are Chinese fakes using a genuine source coin to make the dies and then the dates changed to create a whole series or "family" as I refer to them in my Coin Week articles and include:

    1804 "C-6" half cents
    1833 "N-5" (and now "N-3" reverse) large cents
    1795 "Off-center bust" dollars
    1799 "B-10" dollars
    1826 "C-1 reverse" half cents
    1818 "B-10" quarters

    Best, Jack

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    any updates to the master list?

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 29, 2022 2:13PM

    @CaptHenway said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Is this list for any deceptive counterfeit U.S. coin?

    Back when I was at ANACS in the very early 1980's we saw a 1909-SVDB cent that was struck on a 1960 Lincoln cent. Pictures of it with the 1960 date showing were published in the ANACS monthly page and eventually one of the two reprint books of such pages.

    Had that piece been struck on a genuine U.S. cent planchet made before 1962 (as could have been proven via elemental testing looking for a significant trace of tin) we would not have been able to prove that it was counterfeit.

    Tom DeLorey

    What tipped you off upon initial inspection?

    Another Authenticator, Ingrid Smith, spent some time looking at it and then brought it over to me and said that there was something wrong with the piece but that she could not put her finger on it. I looked at it for about 20 minutes and said that I agreed there was something a bit off about the piece but I could find nothing wrong with it.

    She took it back to her desk and studied it for several minutes more. Suddenly she started swearing in German and called for me to come look at it through her microscope. With the light just right you could see the 1960 date from the understrike. Now that we knew where to look I looked for more of the 1960 strike, and could not find anything.

    Without the understrike date we would probably have certified the coin. I never said that because I did not want to give the counterfeiter ideas.

    Tom, did you note specific die characteristics from the counterfeit dies and did you look for those on any coins that came in with the same date MM?

  • alefzeroalefzero Posts: 869 ✭✭✭✭✭

    On dollars, there are 1875 BB-51 (off-center bust) and a number of Judd patterns from 1871-1873. The 1804 dollar is also obviously well represented among counterfeits, and of variably convincing quality.

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,189 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 30, 2022 9:05AM

    @Zoins said:
    Is anyone collecting the TrueViews for these? I remember seeing a few a while back.

    I have several images on file at this time!

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,189 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    any updates to the master list?

    I actually have a new format that shows the number that have been authenticated as genuine; total is 72 but that is probably a different post...

  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good info thank you all for your hard work on this.



    Hoard the keys.
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @burfle23 said:

    @LanceNewmanOCC said:
    any updates to the master list?

    I actually have a new format that shows the number that have been authenticated as genuine; total is 72 but that is probably a different post...

    play your cards right, buy enough of these, hold on to them long enough and one day all you may have to do is to submit them to pcgs for label updates stating xxxxx counterfeit. xxxxx=whatever word they will/have been using for the ones they've already slabbed and there are many!

    unlikely, but perhaps one/few may be able to go into first reported holders. not that you are into that but some are.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,534 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ErrorsOnCoins said:

    @CaptHenway said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @CaptHenway said:
    Is this list for any deceptive counterfeit U.S. coin?

    Back when I was at ANACS in the very early 1980's we saw a 1909-SVDB cent that was struck on a 1960 Lincoln cent. Pictures of it with the 1960 date showing were published in the ANACS monthly page and eventually one of the two reprint books of such pages.

    Had that piece been struck on a genuine U.S. cent planchet made before 1962 (as could have been proven via elemental testing looking for a significant trace of tin) we would not have been able to prove that it was counterfeit.

    Tom DeLorey

    What tipped you off upon initial inspection?

    Another Authenticator, Ingrid Smith, spent some time looking at it and then brought it over to me and said that there was something wrong with the piece but that she could not put her finger on it. I looked at it for about 20 minutes and said that I agreed there was something a bit off about the piece but I could find nothing wrong with it.

    She took it back to her desk and studied it for several minutes more. Suddenly she started swearing in German and called for me to come look at it through her microscope. With the light just right you could see the 1960 date from the understrike. Now that we knew where to look I looked for more of the 1960 strike, and could not find anything.

    Without the understrike date we would probably have certified the coin. I never said that because I did not want to give the counterfeiter ideas.

    Tom, did you note specific die characteristics from the counterfeit dies and did you look for those on any coins that came in with the same date MM?

    We photographed it and published it. We would have made notes in our files, which presumably went with ANACS when it was sold. I don’t remember seeing another piece from the dies, but it was so good I remember worrying that they might be getting through.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @burfle23 said:

    have you came across any of these yet? (i checked the master list in the op before asking)

    1851 n-3 - 51 over inverted 18, the so-called 51/81 overdate.

    from bob grellman jr.'s 2020 "the die varieties of united states large cents 1840-1857."

    Note: Some very deceptive counterfeit examples exist. These were struck using spark erosion
    transfer dies and are commonly called "Bay Area Counterfeits" because they were first noticed in
    the San Francisco area. They are mint state sharpness but the luster is dull and all have a dull lump
    in the field between the stem tip and adjacent A, a long dash midway between stars 12 & 13 following
    the curve of the rim, and a small lump in the center of the bust over the left side of the 8. The edges
    are squared rather than beveled and they will stand on their edge.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 2,189 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have not run across any of the "Bay" counterfeits @LanceNewmanOCC ; I have good images of several including 2 1852's in a 2000 Superior auction. List of these as follows:

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @burfle23 said:
    I have not run across any of the "Bay" counterfeits @LanceNewmanOCC ; I have good images of several including 2 1852's in a 2000 Superior auction. List of these as follows:

    going forward, which of these two threads should i check for updates, if any, to your master list?

    this thread i am posting in or this one https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1001402/summary-list-of-recent-documented-struck-counterfeit-us-coins

    thanks.

    i'm removing bookmarks of threads you aren't posting to any more. :)

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

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