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St. Gaudens $20 - Advice for a new collector
MidLifeCrisis
Posts: 10,521 ✭✭✭✭✭
What advice, tips, and recommendations would you give somebody who wants to start collecting St. Gaudens $20 gold pieces?
1
MidLifeCrisis
Posts: 10,521 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Is the person wealthy enough to play in this pool?
Is this a true collection or just a bullion buy?
These are two key questions that need to be answered before any advice should be given.
depends on your budget, but the MS-63 grade will give you the most bang for your buck, the eye appeal in this grade will make you happy also
I'd probably rather splurge on a high relief piece (or a proof, if I had the scratch) than put together a date set, but that's just my personal preference. When it comes to gold coins, I do place value on those little green beans. I will now yield the floor to those who actually know something about the series...
The common dates are basically bullion below gem. There are many over graded coins. Work with a mentor and have someone lot viewing for you.
OK, let's say a true collector who has an average middle class income but has no debt...in other words, can afford to play in the pool to some depth without spending grocery money, but can't afford mega coins (I'll leave that up to you to further define). With that in mind, what advice would you give?
I would buy common dates au to 64. I think you would be safe for the time being! Saying that I bought 25 last year and am selling them all and a half dozen or so aren't common dates!
You can find some decent deals on bst but my favorite place is buying at auction(great collections) do your research and you should do ok! Have fun!
Get a classic HR and a modern UHR
If he has an "average middle class income" I would advise him to forget about "collecting" St. Gaudens $20 gold coins. He will not be able to buy much more than pieces that are essentially bullion buys. If he is going to be essentially buying bullion I would advise him to stick to the gold coins that are both highly liquid and which command the lowest possible premiums over bullion value.
It is Gem, or it's basically bullion. I generally prefer type or a nice specimen approach, but it one wanted a set per se, a date set of St. Gaudens could easily be done with just 7 stoppers. Find a 1912 in MS 64/64+ and you're missing just 6 ('20, '21, '29, '30, '31, '32). That would be 17 dates with the '12, and quite impressive.
A date run of the common coins can be done in 30minutes.
Finding an example of a 27-D in any grade and with an average collectors budget, not possible.
Latin American Collection
Seems like a lot of 1927-D double eagles were available but collectors wanted the 1931-S cent and other coins:
https://www.numismaticnews.net/article/1927-d-saint-gaudens-double-eagle
The gold market is heating up right now, so prices will be a bit inflated. However, I would tell him to stick to slabbed coins, buy the book on gold counterfeits if he intends to stray into the raw market.... and wait for gold to dip again so his acquisitions are not immediately 'buried'. Cheers, RickO
Read as much as you can on the subject, decide whether you want cac coins (the sticker in this series has a big impact---i recommend that you look for cac coins but thats up to you) and go for it!
I would suggest looking for something in common with all of them. Maybe they are all AU 58? Maybe all toned? Maybe all with a certain kind of luster? Or wear? The timing would have been better a year or more ago but we play in the pool we’re tossed into these days.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
I think you may have missed the train on St. Gaudens $20 at this point in time. Personally, I would not be starting a collection of $20's as gold is hitting all-time highs (and looks like it is going higher). These coins are pretty closely tied to price of gold until you get to gem grades. I apologize if I'm stifling your drive to collect, I just think timing should be taken into account.
If you do go down this path, find a mentor who is knowledgeable and review as many CAC'd examples as you can find to get an idea of what surfaces/preservation you should be looking for.
I think as you look at what's out there you will find A LOT of junk melt examples even into the mid MS grades (in terms of eye appeal). Definitely buy only slabbed examples as a measure of grade and authenticity insurance. I love the Gauden's, but I opted to get just one as a nice type example and use my resources to buy other gold coins.
Enjoy the hunt!
The only coins not really affected by the gold bullion rise have been the key dates. Those are the only ones I would "collect" assuming key date Saints are on a down cycle. 80% of the dated saints are common dates now. You'd be a bullion collector for the most part. If you plan to do this wait for the next major blood bath in gold prices to take the plunge. You had an opportunity back in March. It only lasted a few days....and many dealers probably weren't unloading actual coins at those distressed prices. Before that it was August 2018 when gold was last under $1200/oz. Now gold is off the races at ATH's. Who knows where this run peaks and then corrects to. Lots of potential risk for the 1st timer buying common $20's here.
As a type collector I have really struggled to find a good deal on a nice Saint (just 1!). Was looking for a couple years for a 66... suddenly prices shot up by $1000 or more starting in March and I was priced out. I ended up buying a common 65+ for more than I wanted to spend on a 66. Cac premiums on 66 Saints are high but 64/65 are more reasonable. There are definitely a lot of scruffy overgraded saints out there - I was originally a cac skeptic but after seeing a couple of cac 64/65 vs non-cac I get it.
Right now as others have mentioned bullion price is driving the majority. When gold was 1200-1500 any common date 65 or under was basically selling for melt. Right now there are significant premiums on top of high gold prices. Seems like a bad time to start a Saint collection from purely a cost perspective.... on the other hand high prices seem to be bringing more coins out of the woodwork.
ReadyFireAim is a resident Saint expert collector here on the board. Great eye and has given me some excellent advice. Maybe he will jump in.
My Gold Type Set
This is just me, but I would just get some for type, a No Motto, Motto and High Relief if you got the $$$.
Stick with coins that are blazers, nothing worse than looking at a dull Saint.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Certainly, a typical collector can assemble a group of Saints that are enjoyable to pursue and collect, so long as true completion is not the goal. Even a date set (one per year) registry (https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/20-gold-major-sets/st-gaudens-20-gold-date-set-circulation-strikes-1907-1932/1026) would push you to purchase very expensive coins like the 1921 and four of the "fab five" late date issues while sidestepping stoppers like the 27-D.
You could challenge yourself to collect OGHs, gold stickers Saints, or some other made up theme, but you will never have a seat at the table with the wealthy folks who can afford the whole series (assuming a middle class income).
Be careful
The more common dates are plentiful enough in the "high bullion grades" that you can cherrypick for quality. Don't settle.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
I’m sort of a type guy so I see two possible options. Collecting the series is borderline impossible, so why start?
First, a big pile of quasi-numismatic chunks of gold is impressive. You can get all the 23-Ds in MS63/4 you want. As others have said, doing that is basically a bullion play.
Second, a small group of really, really gorgeous high grade Saints is also impressive. Look for a couple of nice (maybe 1 in 50 qualify) common-date saints in high condition (MS66-67).
I’d chose option 2, with the option of including a single HR specimen if you’re feeling flush.
For my collection, I wanted one of each type and one of each mint mark. I added both motto and no motto and a few of the mint marks. I think I only needed an, "S" at this point, but I am putting gold purchases on hold with the price of gold premiums up so high.
From a type approach, I would go after just a couple of better dates/grades that are less tied to the price of gold. I would try for the best I could afford, in the highest grade I could afford, have them in PCGS plastic with Green Stickers. Maybe consider dates based on whether or not you have the desire to build a Mint Set w/Gold at some point as well.
Personally, I would kinda want a No Motto Example...so going after that, I would want to avoid those examples that are strongly tied to the price of gold so for 1907 MS66 or MS66+, A 1908 No Motto would require you to go to MS67 or MS67+ and a 1908-D No Motto would require at least MS65 or MS65+.
If you have extra cash to burn, a 1907 High Relief example would be pretty sweet, maybe in MS64 or MS64+?
For me, if I had the cash to burn, I would go for just a couple of nice beaned examples and call it done, avoiding at all costs, the examples heavily tied to the price of gold...and maybe take into consideration if I ever wanted to build a Mint Set w/Gold.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
That's deep...and there is a lot to unpack there. Ha ha ha!
In all seriousness back to the original poster, the High Relief Saint would be awesome but it's a $23K+ coin in MS grades. Not likely within the budget for the typical collector. When I was hunting for my Saint type, I found there to be a massive jump in price between 65 and 66, especially the CAC examples.
More power to yuh!!
I just bought this coin yesterday for $2,175 because I liked it.
The 1925 in my registry set is a MS66 and cost more.
(see sig line link)
You can assemble a very nice set for just over melt but it takes time.
A wealthy person can buy an impressive, full 23 coin date set in a couple hours.
My Saint Set
.....................................................................................................................
Bought this one last week for $2,625 ( $700 over melt at the time)
The pedigree is what I thought drove the premium.
In hand I realized it's a full point under graded.
Very nice surprise for me & a nice date score.
The 20 & 12 are both really baggy looking in general & it is hard to find a nice one.
My registry set coin is a 64+ but I like them both.
My Saint Set
Personally I would start by buying (non common) semi key dates in 64/65 and yes in CAC if he/she is new.
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
thoughts...
Are you collecting pre 33 gold coins or bullion?
Why are you starting now?
At what intervals do you expect to purchase a coin?
Will you lose interest if the price of gold falls and sell out in weakness?
How long do you expect to hold the coin/ coins?
The key is to fully understand your motives and not make an impulsive decision.
Gold is making headlines so the risks are growing so you need a plan as to what will you do if the market declines sharply and stick to the plan.
Having been involved in the markets for about 50 years my only advice is that , "you have to know who you are".
I did what you are asking about starting 10-15 years ago, but I have a business that kicks out plenty of discretionary income, so I was just playing out a childhood dream.
Saint $20: https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/185712/
Saint $10 Indians: https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/134591/
With gold closing in on $2,000 an ounce, the MS65 common date saints you could pick up for $1,700 at the beginning of the year are now commanding $2,500 or more, with the slightly less common, but not scarce by any definition, selling for $3,000.
I could see spending a little more and trying to pick up the less common offerings (1907, 1909, 1912, 1913, 1920), but paying a premium for a 1924 would hurt. I like the suggestion that you pick up a nice high relief. You should be able to get a nice 64 for around $20k.
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
My thanks to everyone who responded to this thread. It's been pretty informative for me. I've never owned a Saint. I don't follow gold prices. So, for me, many of the comments were helpful. I posted the thread as a hypothetical. I've always admired Saints.
In addition to my colonial collection, I am building a type set of "nostalgia" coins...coins that I remember from childhood such as odd denominations; coins that have a family connection or some other sentimental value; or just key dates that I've always wanted. For that, I might save up and buy as nice a 1907 High Relief as I can reach. Otherwise, I don't see myself collecting Saints as a series or anything more than just a few.
I have joked with my wife recently that if I'm getting back into coins, maybe I ought to get into gold because at least the coin will be worth the value of its gold content.
That's what I would do. A HR would be a dream coin
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
Here are the start prices to go with the above chart. This is for 63, 64 and 65 for 10 years so you can see the performance on the 1907 High Relief Saint.
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
Know that you will never complete the set on a middle class budget, might get about half way in MS 63. When the price of gold goes down you’re toast.
csdot,
It appears the High Relief has been declining in value over the last 10 years. Now might be a good buy time? MS64 for around $20,000 as a suggested price to buy? I see them on eBay for $22,000 with best offer. I had no idea how to price these coins, so your input has helped. I am fairly new to St. Gaudens and my main concern is about overpaying.
I think the ship has sailed on the MS 66 and better St Gaudens non-High Relief common date coins for now. Better to wait for a down cycle on those. I got some MS66 coins last year, so the timing was great on that account. I have the No Motto and Motto type, so the only one I am missing is the High Relief.
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Becoming toast is the last thing I worry about. The price of gold may fluctuate but over the long haul I don't see it going down any more that I see the national debt going down.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
What constitutes "middle class" these days??
Anyway, I'm more of a type collector and now kick myself for not pulling the trigger on a common date 63 I found late last year at Baltimore for spot +$75. I think the total was $1275 or so... it's going to be a while before that deal rolls around again.
Seriously though, it depends on how much money your friend is going to want to have wrapped up in gold. As others have said, it's at an all time high. Buying now is going to be a much more expensive proposition and even though gold is a fairly liquid asset, your friend could run the risk of being buried in it should the market turn south.
In the immortal words of Walter White... "tread lightly"...
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With the price of gold soaring, I bet counterfeits will be coming out of the woodwork. Yes be very careful.
Depends on the ratio of unicorns to leprechauns.
Where's @saintguru when you need him. I am interested in Saints myself and I enjoyed his past posts about Saints.
Sent you a nice article by Jim Fehr on collecting $20 Saints. Nice article discussing various dates: common, slightly better, better, rare, etc. Glad I pulled it down off the web 10 years ago--it's gone now!
He who knows he has enough is rich.
Can you pm it to me too. Thanks. 👍
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
sure thing!
He who knows he has enough is rich.
Thank you!
Ditto here too! Should be an interesting read. Thanks!
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets