170 days after delivery buyer is claiming part of shipment damaged/missing
Relaxn
Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭✭✭
On January 7th I sold 2 of the 2019 Reverse Proof Silver Eagles to a member of the forum using the BST. I shipped using Priority with Signature confirmation
January 11, 2020, 11:04 am
Delivered, Left with Individual
SCOTTSDALE, AZ 85XXX
Your item was delivered to an individual at the address at 11:04 am on January 11, 2020 in SCOTTSDALE, AZ 85XXX.
I have had no communication with the buyer since the transaction. When I look at user activity under his username it looks like he has not logged for awhile. Anyway WTH is going on. Package was delivered to a person at the confirmed address. Now claiming that package was damaged (I did not use sturdy enough box is what is said in the claim.) User also told me that he had private insurance through Hugh Wood that covers his purchases (I am not sure on the validity of this)... The transaction was 2120$ and he is asking for $800 back. I am so frustrated! We shipped 2 ASE in the OGP and it was the OGP that was those flat ones no the bigger bulkier ones and we put them inside the priority box. I have no doubt this is an attempt at fraud.
I currently am fighting a claim involving another member where the package showed up empty. But he called me immediately and told me and I was able to file the claim... Conversely this guy is waiting 170 days... 170 days. So frustrating.
Just venting.. Not really wanting to out this guy right now... but maybe I should.
Jason
Comments
How did he pay? 170 days is pretty close to 180 days which is when some payment methods limit charge backs.
By the way, next time someone tells me how much better BST is than eBay remember these TWO problems the OP had.
Edited to specify eBay
He paid via Paypal regular...
How was payment made on the $2120 purchase?
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
170 days? I’d tell him to pound sand. Let him work through his options.
Maybe that’s not great advice, But it’s what I’d do.
Any time someone wants a "partial refund" it sets off alarm bells in my head.
That is double tough. Why would he wait 170 days to tell you the shipment was damaged. Is he offering an excuse as to why he neglected to inform you immediately? I would fight any request for a refund after that amount of time!
I am fighting it. No, the paypal claim says this"
One of the coins was missing and the other box was crushed. Order was not as described. The shipping box was not sturdy enough.
That is it. I wrote an extensive response and I escalated it already. I am not willing to refund any part of this.
To be honest, I still have coins and bullion that haven't been open nor check in the original packages from last year.
Secondly, there is no difference between day 1 and 170 to file a refund /return as long you agreed to the policy the selling platform (paypal, credit card) used.
I’m curious how this will be decided by PayPal. Making a claim after almost half a year is unreasonable as anything could have happened in the interim.
Now PayPal may choose to refund without penalty to the seller to fulfill terms (if those terms are correctly interpreted) but if they regularly penalized sellers for claims like this they would cease to be used by sellers.
If I, as a buyer, didn’t look at my purchase after nearly half a year the fault is mine. There’s a certain amount of reasonable due diligence on the buyer in a transaction.
If you had any USPS insurance I would make a claim ASAP! Pretty sure that door is still open. If the box was crushed...you see where I'm going. Mail Fraud!
180 days is pretty standard for chargebacks. PayPal does allow up to 180 days.
[Note: this is why people with "no returns" on eBay are kidding themselves. Forget eBay, some credit cards allow up to a year for a charge back. Both eBay and PayPal stay out of the way of the credit card company on any investigation and will only step in later to (maybe) give you seller protection.]
If one of the coins was missing, where does the $800 number come from?
It can't be fraud. This happened on the BST.
Agree with amwldcoin, If your only defense is 170 days had passed but still in the statute of limitations, the result won't change.
I understand but it would seem like they would need to require the buyer, in this case, to provide some sort of reasonable proof in situations like this. Otherwise, what’s to keep the fraud rate low?
For example, I could buy some $10,000 coin on an auction site, sell it, wait for 170 days and say the coin was damaged or missing in transit and file a claim and get my $10K back plus the ill-gotten gains. Obviously a slabbed coin would be seen but if I reslabbed it at a different slabber? Or if it wasn’t a coin?
Not trying to make excuses but maybe the buyer was military and has been off on deployment the last 6 months? Or more likely they just looked at current prices of 2019 reversed proof silver eagles and realized at $2120 they took a bath.
170 days does seem excessive. I hope things work out for you. Moral of the story PM transactions local and in cash when at all possible.
Sorry this happened to you. The individual might be within his rights, though, in terms of timeline. Since you mentioned he had not been participating here for a long period of time, perhaps he has other things on his plate right now during these unusual times, and is prioritizing accordingly. If he has 180 days to file a loss, then 170 is within his rights. He may have photographed and documented the damaged package upon arrival in order to deal with it later.
Proceed within the laws and rules that govern these sorts of things. If you had USPS insurance, go ahead and file with them to cover your own base. They will investigate his claim too.
It is not your job to determine if this is fraud or not. Leave it up to USPS and do your share of cooperation with PayPal.
I am not sure if the OP did this, but I just wanted to voice the lessons that can be learned or reinforced here. For the amount of money this transaction was, taking proper insurance is prudent. Photographing the contents and how they are placed in the box is also a good habit. With these camera smart phones that practically everyone has today, it is an effective and time saving tool to document things.
Relaxn, as frustrating as this situation is, do not take it personally. The customer may get their partial refund, but you probably will not lose out on that amount depending on what insurance was taken. The customer told you he had private insurance to cover his loss? Well, did he file with them? Also, if you used a priority box, that is sufficiently sturdy, but mail has been roughed up a lot because of the COVID-19 related delays. When packages are delayed and hanging around in warehouses, there is more chance of mishandling and damage.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
You might want to rethink this statement since it was well before Covid was causing issues in this country!
Also, if you used a priority box, that is sufficiently sturdy, but mail has been roughed up a lot because of the COVID-19 related delays. When packages are delayed and hanging around in warehouses, there is more chance of mishandling and damage.
Suppose you received a package with damaged contents and the shipper sent you a photograph that showed it was properly packaged. Would you refuse to file a claim?
That's such BS. Buyer likely wants to get out of these, sees the market has softened significantly and now wants you to make up the difference. Seems they don't understand how a speculative market works.
The mint sends these out in just the little cardboard boxes just fine.
I'm guessing this is one of the members who showed up right around the time of release for these?
Collector, occasional seller
If I received a package with damaged contents, I would immediately document and file where I need to and alert the shipper. The shipper could have packaged everything properly and it got damaged along the way. Many packages are being damaged because of delays. What is your point?
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Depends. What is your answer to my question?
While UPS and FedEx sell insurance if you read the terms you’ll have a better shot at winning the lottery. In addition they don’t insure coins (among other things). With those carriers you always will need a third party insurer.
This is beside the point sorry, but weren't these going for 2500 each shortly after the mint sales ?
I would try to slow play it until 180 days passed and then tell the buyer to buzz off.
If I understand the claim has already been made. Nothing the seller can do but defend himself.
I just answered it. I would file.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
I apologize- I misunderstood your previous post to say that you would file to alert the shipper, not that you would file a claim for damage.
My point, then- if you would file a claim for damage even if the shipper provided you photos showing proper packaging, having such photos doesn't really help the shipper.
It actually helps the shipper. It will show the insurance claim agents, if they even request it, that he did his part in packaging properly and the blame will be put on the transit. The buyer would be made whole by the insurance. If a package was not insured and there was damage, that is the risk of the seller, not the recipient.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Unless a justifiable extenuating reason with documented verification for waiting 170 days was made by the buyer, there is no question that waiting this long is an attempt to commit fraud against the seller. Just sayin'......
Did you actually mean eBay rather than PayPal?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If I were the seller I would be beside myself with anger.
Sounds really fishy.
I would also tell him to pound sand.
Maybe buyer can explain why he waited so long to file the claim.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
If one of the coins was missing, where does the $800 number come from?> @btcollects said:
Except for modern mint products, some people intentionally buy sealed boxes which they don't open.
I don't know where these coins came from originally or how they were sold. But, for a modern mint buyer, he might buy sealed and only find out he's been cheated when he submits the sealed boxes for grading.
Sorry. Yes. Of course.
Just a guess, maybe the buyer held off on sending in for grading. Both came back 69 which he then recognized he gambled and lost over a grand on the deal so he claims damage in shipping to recoup some of his losses. I have only done three transactions on BST and all were solid. I am sorry you are getting hosed and I hope they find in your favor.
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
jmlanzaf; The coins were sold as opened and not mint sealed. I believe there is validity to aspects of that argument. However, the delivery note specifically says it was handed to someone at the address. Therefore it was physically placed into someones hands.. furthering if there was damage to the external box that allowed for one of the OGP boxes from inside to be missing it would have been discerned immediately and thus we could have dealt with it from jump.
I do not want to get into it too much more. As I have said we escalated the claim immediately with Paypal.
Obvious damage is normally clear-bagged by usps and then presented to recipient. Buyer should have noted damage and contacted you upon receipt even if usps did not bag package.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
I am curious as to who the other party to this transaction is.
If I were the buyer, and it were true, I'd also be beside myself with anger!
Don't worry. It wasn't you.
I wasn't really referring to your transaction at all. But to the more general point that 170 days later must be fraudulent isn't necessarily true. We've talked about this before on the forum. A number of people have a closet full of unopened Mint boxes. 10 years from now, they might just open one to find out the Mint screwed up the order.
What I don't understand here is the $800 number. Where did that come from?
I smell rotten fish. The package had to be signed for, so why would the buyer accept a damaged package with some of the contents missing? I think that I would be getting in contact with the post office and see how they can help you out. I would like to know who it is, just send me a PM.
This assumes that the package shipped is the same package photographed. I would suggest that a seller willing to cheat a buyer might be able to think of a few ways around that.
I am sure since it occurred on BST high volume BST members might be interested in a pm so as to avoid complications in the future with this seller. Granted only one side has been told but nevertheless there is a fish smell in the air.
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
One party can always try to cheat the other. This is why it is best to document as best you can and move forward for your part, whether buyer or seller. If the seller needs to pretend that they packaged securely, they are going to have a tough time showing the exact same items that were shipped. It would assume the seller had duplicates of everything. If the items were graded, then the picture cannot reveal those serial numbers unless there is serious photoshopping. This is not the buyer's concern, though. If buyer receives a damaged package, s/he should document and report right away to insurance, shipper, and shipping company (if separate from insurance). If the seller wants to doctor up evidence, it still does not put the buyer at fault for receiving a damaged package that was immediately reported. For every piece of evidence that the seller or buyer doctors, there are going to be a few scenarios s/he does not anticipate and could be caught. Then it gets worse.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee