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Opinions Needed On this 1877 IHC
Obone
Posts: 139 ✭✭✭
Hi Everyone,
I recently got in this 1877 indian head cent from a friend of mine, and I was going to submit to PCGS. I know this is one of the most counterfeited dates, and I just get some opinions as to authenticity before I send it off. I bought from a local dealer, but did the deal through ebay so I have some protection in case it does turn out to be counterfeit. I would love your opinions on authenticity, or grade.
Hard to capture in photos, but in hand the color is more like other indian head cents I've had, and there is luster on the coin, not sure if that helps with determining authenticity.
Many Thanks in Advance!
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Comments
Don't most 1877's have softness on the bottom right corner of the "N" in "ONE" on the reverse? (Don't own an 1877 so I just go off of pictures). That "ONE" looks awfully sharp.
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The second 7 in the date looks bad to me. Can you get a close-up pic of the date?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
The proof version will not have the soft N, but I dont think this is genuine.
Thanks for the comments. Im outside atm, will snap better pics later. Think its worth a shot submitting to PCGS? This was from an old collection too, of which there were several other key dates, some certified, which made me feel better as to authenticity as well.
The spacing of the date digits look wrong and looks off. I vote countefeit.
This piece unfortunately looks "off" from the images. It may not be genuine.
I'm no expert but my gut feeling is that it is a counterfeit. It just doesn't look right.
Send some good pictures to Rick Snow.... He will give you a full read out....Cheers, RickO
I have consulted the (famous) Reprint Guide of Counterfeits (ANA) and then done the internet research, hoping to solidify my thought/belief that all genuine 1877s have the "Shallow N". That has been my schooling, but sometimes years and years of just 'belief' translate to improper advice when asked here about counterfeit detection.
So . . . in reading extensively, most graders and ex-graders just categorically state " EVERY genuine 1877 has the 'Shallow N' ". One PCGS article DOES state that the grader had seen about half of ALL 1877s that had come through the door . . . and had only seen the "Shallow N" on circulated proofs . . . NOT on genuine business strikes. However, that does account for some exceptionally random apparent "Strong N" submissions, and therefor that recurrent thought that "there are a few out there!"
Die analysis seems to show NO die struck business strikes with a "Strong N". My best research (although amateur by in nature) would seem to agree.
This coin has a particularly STRONG 'N'. It is either a counterfeit for sure or an exceptionally rare die variety.
Drunner
I doubt it’s real and I would return the coin as quickly as possible with time on your side.
Looks bad to me.
Counterfeit
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Counterfeit
Good enough for me. If Fred says it's a fake, it most definitely is a fake.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
Fake and, by the way, there are lots of old, very old and very, very old collections with key date counterfeits. I bought one like this when I first started collecting...tuition! Full set of VF IHCs, many doctored, only the 77 was fake.
First impression ... counterfeit.
As others have said first impression is that it’s fake.
Young Numismatist/collector
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based on the details you provided and the coin's funky look, I would say fake for sure
BAD to the B oNe
That’s one coin I wouldn’t buy raw for sure.
Agree that it's fake. N in ONE is wrong, and 7's in date look wrong too. Could probably find more issues with larger images.
Contemporary or modern?
not even close.
Fake
Definitely looks off.
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I not so sure it’s fake, those pictures are the worst but the date looks right, the N looks right and that color reeks of old copper. I wouldn’t say real but it isn’t a slam dunk fake others are purporting it to be
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Or a proof with impaired or toned mirrors
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Coin collecting, for better or worse sure teaches you about human nature. Unfortunately this shows the worse side.
any of the slam dunk fake guys want to support their assertion? Would love to see what I missed. I don't see any evidence based fake clues just emotional ones about the likelihood of a key date proof just popping up. I even get treating it as fake until proven other wise but really curious how others are so sure
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
No go here. Pass
Everyone is assuming it’s fake based on it being a business strike and missing the shallow N. If it were an impaired proof, isn’t the N right? It doesn’t scream obvious counterfeit to me, did you get clear better pictures? Pictures are so blurry I can’t see boo other than the N isn’t shallow.
If it’s real why isn’t it slabbed?
You can give it a shot at PCGS but I believe it will come back fake and I concur with other posters in doubting authenticity.
From this inexperience collector, it seem off to me based on the elevated 8 compared to other numbers.
Also 1 of the denticle above the feather head dress is over sized.
I was always under the impression that the surviving business strikes bear the "Shallow N" reverse (I believe there were only two dies used for the reverse), but circulated Proofs will not have the Shallow N. Better pics in the OP would be useful... especially in the fields to see if it's an actual Proof...
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Date looks right to me what what little resolution there is
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Several posters have reiterated what I said a few comments down from the top. YES . . . a circ. proof is going to have a 'strong N'. I think I tried to state that earlier . . .
"One PCGS article DOES state that the grader had seen about half of ALL 1877s that had come through the door . . . and had only seen the "Shallow N" on circulated proofs . . . NOT on genuine business strikes. However, that does account for some exceptionally random apparent "Strong N" submissions, and therefor that recurrent thought that "there are a few out there!"
I keep coming back here and have not seen any definitive comments arguing against my first post.
Business strikes have a 'shallow N'. OR (read it ALL now gentlemen . . . . . . . circulated proofs.
Drunner
Thanks for all the feedback! Does anyone think it would be worth sending to PCGS? I'm a bit confused, maybe its a proof?
Thanks
Step 1 - clear pictures posted here.
Step 2 - opinions given based on clear pictures.
Step 3 - submit or not based on those opinions
It’s either a proof, altered date, or counterfeit in my opinion, which is clear as mud lol.
It might or might not be genuine. But regardless, there are countless genuine coins of significant value that (for one reason or another) haven't been slabbed. The fact that it's not slabbed shouldn't be used as a reason to deem it counterfeit.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If it were my coin I would send it in just for the peace of mind to know one way or the other if the coin is authentic. If it turns out to be real it will also make it much easier to sell for top dollar when that time comes for you or your heirs.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Get us much better pictures and we might be able to give you much better answers.
Lance.
Not a business strike but could be a genuine proof. The serifs on the N's and E's do not match a business strike 1877.
Better photos are needed for sure.
Do you see weakness in the tops of the letters in states like this photo?
Edited to add: Some cute little photos that ya can't blow up. LOL
The second “7” in the date is weaker and not right. Unless it’s a Proof, the “N” in “ONE” is too strong.
PASS
I consider expensive raw key date US coins for sale over the internet to be fake unless proved otherwise.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
That will certainly keep you out of trouble. What do you consider “proof” in such cases?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Being slabbed by any top tier grading service along with examination with my own eyes.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Well, if, as in the original scenario you provided, a “raw” coin is being offered over the internet, it’s highly unlikely that a “top tier grading service” will be involved.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That was my point. If it's a raw key date coin on the internet, I would pass on it. If it's slabbed and I buy it, I would also want to do my own examination. For example I just bought an1893-S Morgan dollar in a PCGS slab which is a key date coin that's been counterfeited. I checked the two diagnostic features this coin should have to verify its authenticity.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Thanks.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.