Why Pedigrees are Important...Or Not
MidLifeCrisis
Posts: 10,524 ✭✭✭✭✭
For this discussion, provenance = pedigree = provenance.
Realone posted a thread asking which provenance is better - T. Harrison Garrett or Louis E. Eliasberg. Since he did not post a coin, and did not make any reference to a coin, I think he was asking about the provenance. But some people responded that it depends on the coin. One person said "If the provenance matters more than the coin, you're an idolater."
Of course the coin is the most important element...and nobody said provenance matters more than the coin.
I like pedigrees. I think they give the coin a story. They give a human aspect to the coin that I find interesting. Coins with well known pedigrees are generally nicer - not always, but generally. Some pedigrees can add value to a coin. However, the coin has to be great on its own. A pedigree cannot make a coin.
There are so many cool and interesting coins out there that I define ways to stay focused and limit what I buy. If I didn't, I'd go broke pretty quickly. Or I would never be satisfied with what I had because there would always be another coin that caught my eye. So I like to set parameters to define my collection. A pedigree is one of those parameters. Another parameter one could use is the Box of 20 approach (which seems equally controversial).
While I'm on the subject, here are three of my favorite pedigrees and why I like them:
Ford - John J. Ford was a contrarian. His collection contained over 11,000 coins, tokens, medals and other numismatic items covering all aspects of American numismatics - except regularly issued federal US coins! His collection was sold by Stack’s in a series of auctions for over $56 million. I never met him. I have heard stories that he was not a nice man...a ruthless dealer. Some even say he was a crook. But I appreciate anybody who can stay so contrarian; who can ignore conventional wisdom and popular trends, and who can build such a special and, indeed, valuable collection without including even one "key date" federal coin.
Garrett - As I noted in Realone's thread, Garrett carries a lot of mystique and star power to me. It's hard for me to explain why, but it's probably because of Q. David Bowers' book "The History of United States Coinage: As Illustrated by the Garrett Collection". Also, the four Garrett auctions took place from 1979 to 1981, the same time I was first getting into coin collecting as a teenager. I remember reading about them and being amazed at the coins. There were a lot of "WOW!" coins.
Roper - John L. Roper, 2nd, was "a prominent Virginia industrialist and public figure". He assembled one of the finest collections of colonial era coins ever to come to public auction. The coins were sold by Stack's in December 1983.
Anyway, a pedigree is another aspect of the hobby that is interesting and worth pursuing to some collectors but not all. A pedigree is as important as you want it to be - or not.
Comments
I don't consider provenance in the sense that I seek it out. Further, I don't collect at the level where provenance is a material consideration. However, I collect coins and medals largely because of their part in history. The history of collectors is interesting and adds a lot to the interest of a collectible IMO. So, I see provenance important enough to add some value to a collectible, other things being equal. How much value in monetary terms, not much for me, although I can imagine a significant premium for rare items, especially those where authenticity is open to some debate (not likely coins, but think of art).
"Anyway, a pedigree is another aspect of the hobby that is interesting and worth pursuing to some collectors but not all. A pedigree is as important as you want it to be - or not."
This is one reason I find coin collecting so interesting. For me, pedigree/provenance adds astonishingly little to my experience in the hobby-industry. However, to others it can be a guide toward focus, enjoyment and knowledge. Good post!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The real issue:
Sellers want big premiums for "good" pedigrees. When it comes time for the buyer of such items to sell will the pedigree still be of interest to potential buyers. Does the pedigree "have legs"?
The truly "big name" pedigrees may pack some punch but anything less ...
Oh you mean like these ? I thought they packed a punch when I bought them.....
As MLC points out it gives a coin a story and for me these two medals tweeks my imagination.
I wonder how often John J Ford held these and looked at them and what he thought of the men on these medals?
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I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
The only coin provenances that are meaningful to me are Pogue and Eliasberg (and perhaps Carter). Even then, I'd opt for an "anonymous" coin I liked more for the same price.
Provenance is important to me. It's exciting when a coin can be traced to the 1800s and even the 1700s, for example the William Strickland - William St. Oswald coins. It's also a good way to talk about a specific notable specimen.
At the same time, lack of one doesn't impact my collecting in the least.
For example, for the following set I was able to pick up the top pop 1/0 MS67 and an off center error piece, both with no provenance, along with a piece with a great Eric Newman provenance. They all add to the collecting fun for me.
I believe money is the name of the game here.
I buy coins based upon whether they appeal to me, not by who owned them.
Cheers
Bob
I would love to own a Pogue, Bass, or Pittman and look for opportunities to do so. But...I try not to lose sight of the fact there are also opportunities to acquire coins that were not available (for sale) to these men in their times and which they would have loved to add them to their great collections if they could.
To those who say provenance doesn't matter at all:
So you're telling me that a coin or medal that could be traced back to the estate of a Founder, TR, an early coin designer or engraver, early mint director, the cabinet of George II or Louis XIV (who collected) - that sort of provenance would not be of interest?
@oldabeintx
See my post above.
Cheers
Bob
Well Ok then.
I’m a Bass and Pittman guy.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
More personal provenance is important to me. Actually knowing the collectors who owned the coins is more of a kick to me. They, of course, were (are) famous in my area of collecting.
My favorite pedigrees from: Dosier, Hilgard, Logan, Hilgard, myself.
My favorite pedigreed book is: Eckfeldt, Witham, myself.
Cool to me even if no one else appreciates them.......
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
Like @Realone mentioned above, I think it adds another "layer" to a coin...especially a famous pedigree. While I don't seek specific pedigrees out, it's definitely an added bonus. Plus, it's nice to be able to pull up an auction photo from decades ago and see that the coin looks exactly the same today as it did then. Seems pedigree is much more important with the EAC crowd...most EAC dealers list a coin's pedigree by default, which doesn't seem to be the case for non-EAC dealers.
What's the old quote?
"Buy the coin and not the provenance"
I could care less who owned the coin in the past, especially if it adds value.
I try to add a coin or coins from the well known collections that I admire in my sets. This adds a nice story line while owning a little something of what inspired you to collect In the first place. Tracing the history of a coin also adds enjoyment and expands on that storyline.
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End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us
Pedigrees are interesting, but the item is what matters.
I obtained a gorgeous Hansen coin. When I sent it in for TrueView I had them remove the pedigree.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Some of them are more important than others. I'd like to own an Eliasberg coin someday. Owning a Miller Peace dollar would be slightly interesting, that sort of thing. Some of the made-up stuff that gets put on labels isn't so meaningful.
I probably would too. Yeah, I see lots of these on David Lawrence's site. I admire what Hansen is doing, but I don't see the point of advertising the cast-offs from the collection. Someday, when the really best stuff gets auctioned, it will be much more meaningful.
Yeah, those labels are over the top.
At the rate he buy and sells I doubt he ever looked at the one I have.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Eliasberg
Norweb
Garrett
Bass
The Mount Rushmore of Coin Collectors
I am very glad you are back, @MidLifeCrisis!
Lance.
What about Clapp? Many/most of Eliasberg's coins came from him.
There is only one Eliasberg saint that I might have an outside chance at & I'd pay a premium for it if it ever came up.
Everything else would be way over my budget.
MS65 (518/14)
I'd also pay up for a Pittman, Carter, Norweb or even a Hansen so long as the coin was appealing to me.
My Saint Set
I would rather have a coin of crazyhounddog provenance than any of the others mentioned. These coins have a history I am familiar with even though not as far back as the others mentioned. Then, that's just me.
JIm
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Eliasberg had multiple rolls of mint state 1883 no cents nickels. Whoever bought them had them all slabbed with the Eliasberg name on the label to cash in on the provenance. This is probably the least expensive coin that one can buy with a famous provenance.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I like pedigreed coins and do tend to pay a bit more for them assuming the coin is all there. The connection to history adds another dimension to the ownership for me.
Latin American Collection
Latin American Collection
Any information that adds color or story to a particular coin I find very interesting.
There is no 'right' way to collect. Several quite interesting boxes of 20 have been posted by Forum owners. Other collectors are focusing on a collection defined by the Dansco 7070 album. MLC's prior (and possibly new) collection revolved around colonials with interesting pedigrees (and they all had to have eye appeal, not just a name). The coin I remember is a Nova Constellatio copper that was once owned by Loren Parmelee. That's a pedigree!
I agree with comments naming specific collectors, but there are others that are possibly more important to specialized collectors (large cents, for example). There is at least one very important collector, Waldo Newcomer, whose name rarely appears on an insert. After his death during the Great Depression (possibly by suicide), his collection was purchased by Max Mehl, who quickly dispersed it to other dealers. There was no blockbuster Newcomer sale, so his name remains unappreciated today.
Not many of us will take our coins to our graves when we pass on, so we are just temporary custodians. The people who were prior owners are integral parts of the history behind a coin, and an interest in history is a major reason why I began collecting coins 55 years ago.
Coins having notable pedigrees are easier to trace, since they tend to appear in photographs in auction catalogs. Unfortunately, coin doctors are well aware of this, and some have dropped the pedigree when submitting a coin for a hoped-for upgrade after the work was done.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
My 30,000 foot view identifies differences between the terms Provenance and Pedigree.
The following text is partially taken from my ANA blog dated Jan 4, 2017:
Provenance
Provenance is normally used to show the legal title chain (chain of ownership/possession). This legal title chain is in the form of a partial title chain linkage or a full title chain linkage.
Partial Title Chain Linkage
a. Start anywhere in the legal title chain.
b. Be as short as a single person-to-person transfer of ownership/possession.
c. Never be as long as the full title chain linkage.
Full Title Chain Linkage
a. Linkage start from the manufacturer.
b. Include each and every person-to-person transfer of ownership/possession.
c. Linkage ends with the current ownership/possession.
d. Linkage may continue upon the subsequent sale of a numismatic object with a current full title chain linkage.
Pedigree
Pedigree is normally used to tie a numismatic object to:
a. An important collection (collector(s))
b. An important hoard (hoarder or hoard location)
c. An issuance (date or period of time)
d. An issuance event (date, time, and location)
e. A book's plate "coin or medal"
There are numerous examples that can fulfill a single or multiple definitions.
Example - Provenance with Full Title Chain Linkage
Unsung First Day Issue 1964-P Kennedy half dollar and its documents.
Full title chain linkage: US Treasury-> President Lyndon B. Johnson->Congressman Robert G. Stephens->Darryl Gomez based on two documents.
Pedigrees are a cool added bonus. I like the history aspect. Adds to the allure. Worth a modest premium, IMHO.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Provenance/pedigree is very important to me. The majority of the Civil War tokens in my collection have some provenance. Many collectors enjoy the history of the items they collect. For me, the provenance adds another dimension of history that I find fascinating. Also, if there is a Civil War token from the Tanenbaum, Bowers, Fuld, etc. collection there is a good chance that it is one of the finest known examples.
Owning items with provenance allows me to learn about collectors such as the Fulds or Steve Tanenbaum who I unfortunately never were able to meet while also learning about collectors that you know personally such as Dave Bowers. One thing I have heard before is that a great part of collecting is "collecting collectors" in the sense that you can meet many interesting people in the hobby who are all brought together by their shared interest in numismatics. In my opinion, provenance is another way of collecting collectors.
With that said I also understand that there is no one way to collect so it is natural that different people will have varying opinions about the role provenance plays in their collecting experience.
ANA-LM, CWTS-LM, NBS, TAMS, ANS
How many here intend to leave their collection behind with a provenance / pedigree, either public or anonymous?
I would rather know the name of the widow who saved the coin in a jar for a month to pay her rent. How many times it was left for a tip in the local bar or restaurant. How far did it travel in commerce. Did a known person in history ever hold it, and just what they spent it for.
This is far more interesting to me that what billionaire sold it to which millionaire or what the label says...
The draw of a provenance may come from the desire to know more about the past history of a coin, who owned it, when and where. In a similar way this is what draws me to collect chopmarked coins. Although I can’t say exactly who handled the coins previously (except for the few that ALSO have a provenance attached), I can say certifiably that each took a boat ride to China and were used in commerce. Add to that the Carson City pieces can also be said to have taken a mule or wagon ride to San Francisco.
I’ve also done my part to record when and where each coin was purchased, because it adds more color to the story. I’ve purchased chopmarked coins out of China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, Philippines, Russia, Australia, Europe pretty much everywhere.
Not the same as a famous provenance but for me there’s a similar draw in wanting to know more about the coins past.
Fortunately, for the price levels of coins I can afford, this question doesn't come up very often.
Proof Buffalo Registry Set
Capped Bust Quarters Registry Set
Proof Walking Liberty Halves Registry Set
Those would be great things to know and I would love to know them as well, but unfortunately, many of those are unknowable, except when a known person in history was a collector.
I have this one and while it has most likely been saved in many coin jars and left for tip in a local bar as it travelled for commerce, the only name it is associated with is Brent Pogue.
Even without Pogue's association, that piece would have some interest. It is clearly a well-worn (and well-traveled) Fugio.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Sure it would have interest, but the reason I posted is that even a coin like that doesn't have the provenance that @Moxie15 would like.
Welcome back MLC.
Depends on the coin and sale. I remember folks intentionally losing the Eliasberg pedigree, at the time, when the coin upgraded. Same with Pittman, etc. Good decision on many.
I love the Knoxville pedigree yet PCGS does not recognize it and for sure several coins were graded optimistically. Current post regarding such. Several also are and will always be the finest known.
Some folks here research and find old sales and provenances for their important coins.
All good and fun.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
For a seated, bust, Barber, and choice gem silver type coin person as myself.....these matter....a lot. But yes, coin first, pedigree 2nd. If the coin is all there for the price and grade....a winner.
Eliasberg, James A. Stack, Norweb, Newman, S. Benton Emory, Amon Carter, Benson, and others. Basically, it comes down to coins put away in the 60's and earlier....preferably 50's and earlier....that spent many decades in the same collection.
Great piece Zoins!
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
@Zoins I don't know, it is just that because it was once owned by Mr Pogue that a coin has more value makes no sense to me. I look at that as about the same as thinking that a 1960 vintage waffle maker is worth more because Elvis at a waffle made on it, or it was taken from Marilyn Monroe's house after she died.
This stuff happens, both with coins and waffle makers.