Damaged Planchlet or PMD??

JeffMTampa

Recently I purchased an 1892 Barber Half in an ICG MS62 holder. The listing photos were a bit vague. Looking at the coin in hand I could see toned over horizontal scratches going across the hair:

Because the scratches only go across the highest points, I'm thinking there were scratches on the planchlet prior to striking. When struck, the highest points on a coin receive the least pressure. In thin case, not squeezing out the defect. Lower areas receive more pressure; in this case squeezing out the scratch. I have a lot of respect for the grading skills at ICG, and would be surprised if the coin would have graded if they thought it was PMD.

Other thoughts? Could it be PMD and it was missed by ICG?

ricko

Those are great pictures, and I understand your premise....However, based on the pictures, I am leaning toward PMD...ICBW....Cheers, RickO

DIMEMAN

PMD to me.

astrorat

It appears to be roller marks, not PMD, but scratches to the blank strip as it exited the roller press. The strip was then cut into blanks and planchets then punched. The scratches appear on the high points not fully struck into the planchet.

JeffMTampa

Anyone heard from @Insider2 recently? I would love to get his opinion on this.

What makes me believe it's not PMD is the scratches exist boldly on the highest points, carry onto the sides of raised elements, but are non-existent in the valleys. That would be tough to create after the coin was struck.

Question- does this coin belong in a MS 62 holder, either due to PMD or a defective planchet (I think roller marks as @astrorat mentioned) ?

TurtleCat

Insider2 was banned recently so you won’t get his opinion on this site. He may be on other coin sites but I don’t know which, if any.

ctf_error_coins

PMD

291fifth

Post mint damage. There are raised areas at the edges of the scratches where metal was pushed upward. This would not happen if the scratches were in the planchet before it was struck.

Nic

"Roller Marks" on high grade Barber halves are not uncommon, in later years, though have never seen them on the early issues. Typically most prominent on or near the central obverse or reverse. No raised metal and often very difficult to see in pics.

JeffMTampa

Here's another Barber Half from my stash, a '13 S in a PCGS AU58 holder. Across the face, hair, and neck you can see a crescent shaped depression. Note that it's the same diameter as a half dollar:

It's my suspicion is the curved shape came about when a blank strip was lightly punched by a blanking press in the wrong place. The curved indention was in the planchet before striking. When struck, the lighter pressure at the high points allowed the curved indentation to remain. At the lower high pressure areas the curved depression becomes much lighter.

I'm pretty sure the circular shape isn't PMD. I believe it has characteristics of the original coin posted.

Jimnight

PMD

CaptHenway

Mint made. Sometimes called "roller marks." Sometimes called "drawing bench lines." Sometimes just generically called "planchet striations."
TD

jdimmick

First thing I thought was it looked like roller marks as mentioned

Kkathyl

I’m a little late to the club and haven’t read above however to me I see #PMD the reason being is it’s only the surface and high points that I see a scratch along but I should maybe check my book and see if there’s an error known to have those traits. God bless Nate, great thread thanks for sharing

Thanks,
Kathleen

Walkerfan

Unforfunately, it looks like PMD to me.

JeffMTampa

I took a few extreme close-up shots of the scratched areas:

After looking at the areas close-up I'm in the Mint Made Roller Marks camp.

pursuitofliberty

Interesting coin.

I am in the "as stuck" camp. Those look like "roller marks" if you want to call them that. Parallel planchet scrapes or striations.

PMD scratches tend to have microscopic "edges" that are not uniform, especially for coins that are essentially mint state. Your closeup pictures do not indicate that to me.

Also, if you know the Barber design, those very much appear to be at the same "level" throughout the strike.

JeffMTampa

As a follow up, I submitted the coin to PCGS for crossover. It came back in an AU58 holder:

Although not conclusive, the PCGS graders tend to catch nearly everything. My guess is they saw the marks and decided they were part of the planchet prior to the coin being struck.

GoldenEgg

Interesting. Thanks for posting!

pursuitofliberty

I think I'm going to agree with the straight grade. Those look like roller or adjustment marks to the planchet, and the coin did not quite get a full enough strike to remove them

PerryHall

@pursuitofliberty said:
I think I'm going to agree with the straight grade. Those look like roller or adjustment marks to the planchet, and the coin did not quite get a full enough strike to remove them

I don't think coins from the late 1800's had adjustment marks. I think they are drawing bench marks from the planchet production.

pursuitofliberty

Actually, you are correct ... I think that is a more correct description @PerryHall

pursuitofliberty

LOL ... I'm losing it, I knew I saw that coin before. For whatever reason I didn't see any other posts when I responded a few minutes ago. Glad you got it graded!

joeykoins

@ricko said:

ICBW....

You can never be wrong, my friend! Lol. Just kidding. That reminds me of a wisecrack that my father would always say, " I'm always RIGHT, sometimes."

ricko

@joeykoins .... I was wrong once, when I thought I was wrong, but I was not. Cheers, RickO

seanq

@JeffMTampa said:
Here's another Barber Half from my stash, a '13 S in a PCGS AU58 holder. Across the face, hair, and neck you can see a crescent shaped depression. Note that it's the same diameter as a half dollar:

It's my suspicion is the curved shape came about when a blank strip was lightly punched by a blanking press in the wrong place. The curved indention was in the planchet before striking. When struck, the lighter pressure at the high points allowed the curved indentation to remain. At the lower high pressure areas the curved depression becomes much lighter.

I'm pretty sure the circular shape isn't PMD. I believe it has characteristics of the original coin posted.

Sorry I am only seeing this now. Are there matching curved marks on the reverse? A partial punch should be visible on both sides.

Sean Reynolds

LanceNewmanOCC

per the 1892. i think 99% of the time i'd call those planchet striations/roller marks from the stock being thinned out.

in this instance, though they "appear" to be those, i'm going to go against the grain and say most likely PMD. i'm not the most focused right now but they seem to only be effecting the high points. roller marks almost without fail obvious effect the low points as well since there is ONLY low points (or only high points) on stock which is flat.

also, flan striations are not usually that deep and wide.

if they are PMD, they are older unless someone found a way to make them less bright as they seem to match the rest of the surfaces patina.

i reserve my opinion until i am more focused or could see the coin in-hand, which i cannot.

also gotta call the 13 pmd. i could almost get on board with an incomplete strike if it were not for the neck. the raised metal is in such a way that it appears to be pmd. as nice as the images are, i'd need larger images for both to be 100%. perhaps even different angles. i'd rather be careful than wrong.

both are nice coins pmd notwithstanding.

JeffMTampa

Here's the reverse of the '13 S Half posted above:

There are no signs of an incomplete punch there. I'll need to do a little research on how the punch worked.

As picky as the grading room at PCGS gets I'm going with mint made on both, not PMD. But it's interesting to hear other theories.

FredWeinberg

That's not an Incomplete Punched Planchet

seanq

@JeffMTampa said:

There are no signs of an incomplete punch there. I'll need to do a little research on how the punch worked.

As picky as the grading room at PCGS gets I'm going with mint made on both, not PMD. But it's interesting to hear other theories.

There's an entire thread of incomplete punches here, including several of mine. Looking at the reverse of your coin, I agree that it is not an incomplete punch.

Sean Reynolds