I don't mind 'widget' nearly as much as I dislike 'dreck'. To me, widget just means something that is easily obtainable, you just have to pay the going price. It does not mean it is not nice, it just is not rare at all. But 'dreck' is a direct diss.
Not being an 'Advanced' collector, I have to settle for 'widgets' most of the time. But I don't count any of it 'dreck'.
@element159 said:
I don't mind 'widget' nearly as much as I dislike 'dreck'. To me, widget just means something that is easily obtainable, you just have to pay the going price. It does not mean it is not nice, it just is not rare at all. But 'dreck' is a direct diss.
Not being an 'Advanced' collector, I have to settle for 'widgets' most of the time. But I don't count any of it 'dreck'.
I have both widgets and dreck. Another word for widget is “common”. I’m not sure why people just don’t use “common”.
I have dreck which can be holed and low and damaged condition. I think dreck is like one of those words that’s more acceptable to use for your own coins than someone else’s.
Private treaty is an interesting term to me. A lot of my private treaties are just naming or accepting a price and discussing shipping via email. Somehow, it doesn’t seem as glorious as other treaties.
From what I can tell, it seems a private treaty is just a private transaction.
@DNADave said:
Ok no one had said it so here’s mine: Advanced collector.
BS. Advanced just means they have more money than they know what to do with most of the time.
I’ve mostly seen this in coin descriptions by sellers, not collectors describing themselves, I think it’s used to make buyers feel better about spending more.
@Zoins said:
I guess market grading is the one that drives the most people crazy
It's hard for me to understand eye appeal as a component of technical grading because eye appeal seems subjective by its very nature, and thus not "technical".
What about luster? Do you consider it a component of eye appeal? And do you consider it at all technical?
I think there’s a more objective way to evaluate luster than eye appeal.
A combination of luster, strike and lack of marks would be an object way to evaluate eye appeal.
Toning is the hard one as it is very subjective. Many high grade coins can appear to have negative toning appeal to many, at least via the photos posted here.
@DNADave said:
Ok no one had said it so here’s mine: Advanced collector.
BS. Advanced just means they have more money than they know what to do with most of the time.
I’ve mostly seen this in coin descriptions by sellers, not collectors describing themselves, I think it’s used to make buyers feel better about spending more.
I think the term “advanced collector” can legitimately be used with respect to collectors of coins which are rare and/or valuable and/or esoteric and/or varieties.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@DNADave said:
Ok no one had said it so here’s mine: Advanced collector.
BS. Advanced just means they have more money than they know what to do with most of the time.
I’ve mostly seen this in coin descriptions by sellers, not collectors describing themselves, I think it’s used to make buyers feel better about spending more.
I think the term “advanced collector” can legitimately be used with respect to collectors of coins which are rare and/or valuable and/or esoteric and/or varieties.
I agree that it can be used that way, but I don’t see many such collectors calling themselves advanced. Numismatist is the term I see collectors use more.
As mentioned, I see “advanced collector” used more by sellers than collectors. Do you know of collectors that call themselves advanced?
@shorecoll said:
Find a scientist in any technical discipline and explain to them with a straight face market or commercial grading vs technical grading. Market grading is that once-upon-a-time enough industry powers-that-be decided that these circulated coins get to be called uncirculated and we'll all shut up and buy them.
I'm new here but I have read a lot on this subject. I have a science background so I understand the difference. It is very simple to understand and you have explained it nicely. Technical grading was too strict. It was invented in the 1970s by people who did not buy or sell coins and was only used to describe a coin's actual condition.
What in the (Bleep) is "GRADING" if it is not "describ(ing) a coins actual condition"??????????? That should be the textbook definition of "GRADING." "PRICING" is something else entirely!
When ANACS started grading coins in 1979 we used "technical grading" in the interests of something called "accuracy." Dealers use "market grading" in the interests of something called "greed." And the collecting hobby is far worse off for it.
When I hear the term market grading I think of all those coins with a trace of high point wear (super sliders) that are in MS61 or 62 slabs. These coins would trade in the marketplace as a mint state coin even though they are technically high end AU.
I think of those and higher grade coins, as well, which look as if they have received an extra point or more, due to color.
Actually, the best example of a market graded coin would be a VF Buffalo Nickel without a full to the tip horn.
Because they are "technically" a VF coin by "overall wear", they become "market acceptable".
Just my 2 Cents (or two Pennys) worth.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
"Lowball". Not so much for the playfulness of the word, yet rather because it is so misused. Many believe lowball is defined as any POS that is close to junk. In truth it is a problem free ultra worn coin. If it is damaged (and worn) it isn't a lowball.
@DNADave said:
Ok no one had said it so here’s mine: Advanced collector.
BS. Advanced just means they have more money than they know what to do with most of the time.
I’ve mostly seen this in coin descriptions by sellers, not collectors describing themselves, I think it’s used to make buyers feel better about spending more.
I think the term “advanced collector” can legitimately be used with respect to collectors of coins which are rare and/or valuable and/or esoteric and/or varieties.
I agree that it can be used that way, but I don’t see many such collectors calling themselves advanced. Numismatist is the term I see collectors use more.
As mentioned, I see “advanced collector” used more by sellers than collectors. Do you know of collectors that call themselves advanced?
Your posting regarding the term "Numismatist" brought to mind a statement shared with me in a private correspondence by Numimatist Q. David Bowers:
" ... there are good lawyers and bad lawyers just as there are with coin dealers. At least you have the American Bar Association to regulate - or try to regulate - attorneys. In coins there are no rules whatsoever - and anyone can claim to be a professional numismatist."
@shorecoll said:
QDB used to speak of market cycles that drove grade-flation. In high demand times where more people wanted MS-66's, they simply re-classified MS-65's as 66's or 67's and in low demand times they might be 64's and 65's (or even 63's in the above example). Is that the danger we're facing now? It certainly might be in the commem market.
What I said in a nutshell.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@DNADave said:
Ok no one had said it so here’s mine: Advanced collector.
BS. Advanced just means they have more money than they know what to do with most of the time.
I’ve mostly seen this in coin descriptions by sellers, not collectors describing themselves, I think it’s used to make buyers feel better about spending more.
I think the term “advanced collector” can legitimately be used with respect to collectors of coins which are rare and/or valuable and/or esoteric and/or varieties.
I agree that it can be used that way, but I don’t see many such collectors calling themselves advanced. Numismatist is the term I see collectors use more.
As mentioned, I see “advanced collector” used more by sellers than collectors. Do you know of collectors that call themselves advanced?
Your posting regarding the term "Numismatist" brought to mind a statement shared with me in a private correspondence by Numimatist Q. David Bowers:
" ... there are good lawyers and bad lawyers just as there are with coin dealers. At least you have the American Bar Association to regulate - or try to regulate - attorneys. In coins there are no rules whatsoever - and anyone can claim to be a professional numismatist."
But not anyone can claim to be a Professional Numismatist with the Guild
The Professional Numismatist Guild regulates numismatists in their membership.
Whether or not this is enough regulation for certain scenarios has been the topic of some debate.
@braddick said:
"Lowball". Not so much for the playfulness of the word, yet rather because it is so misused. Many believe lowball is defined as any POS that is close to junk. In truth it is a problem free ultra worn coin. If it is damaged (and worn) it isn't a lowball.
Lowball is the lowest coin that is also "Registry Quality", to throw another term into the ring.
@shorecoll said:
QDB used to speak of market cycles that drove grade-flation. In high demand times where more people wanted MS-66's, they simply re-classified MS-65's as 66's or 67's and in low demand times they might be 64's and 65's (or even 63's in the above example). Is that the danger we're facing now? It certainly might be in the commem market.
@s4ny said:
The term EF. It's XF. It just annoys me. ...
>
>
Actually, I have always found XF to not be logical. It exist because of its onomatopoeic value (had to look up the spelling on that one) for sounding like the grade words Extremely Fine and the unofficial Extra Fine.
The XF abbreviation is the only one that doesn't represent the words used for the grade.
P or Po = Poor
F or Fr = Fair
AG = About Good
G = Good
VG = Very Good
F = Fine
VF = Very Fine
EF = Extremely Fine
AU = About Uncirculated
MS = Mint State
The ANA official system, Sheldon system, and the old Photograde all use EF.
PCGS uses XF. Don't recall if any other grading services do that.
While I prefer EF, I can use both since XF has long been accepted by the market. Neither annoy me as long as the grading is accurate.
.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
@braddick said:
"Lowball". Not so much for the playfulness of the word, yet rather because it is so misused. Many believe lowball is defined as any POS that is close to junk. In truth it is a problem free ultra worn coin. If it is damaged (and worn) it isn't a lowball.
Lowball is the lowest coin that is also "Registry Quality", to throw another term into the ring.
Yes, good one that I forgot about.
Registry quality coin, lol.
Any coin can be used in the registry which makes any PCGS coin Registry quality.
PO1 to MS70.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
@Zoins said:
I guess market grading is the one that drives the most people crazy
It's hard for me to understand eye appeal as a component of technical grading because eye appeal seems subjective by its very nature, and thus not "technical".
What about luster? Do you consider it a component of eye appeal? And do you consider it at all technical?
A coins luster is important to determine the originality of a coin's surface. Since the original luster on a coin can take many different forms, it cannot be taken into consideration for a technical grade. I myself prefer the the blast white frost on a CC dollar rather than the luster on a 1903. While both coins are technically original and mint state - the same technical grade - one looks dull and has much less eye appeal - to me. Subjectivity of any kind should not be considered for a technical grade because you throw precision out the window as soon as eye-appeal, value, rarity, ownership, market conditions, etc. influences the grade.
@Raybo said: "One term that always drives me nuts is "condition rarity".
Actually, this is a valid term IMO. The second book I read in my father's library (The Red book was the first) was Taxay's encyclopedia. Some coins are listed as: Rare above _______. That's possibly the first time I came into contact with condition rarity. That's one reason - the search for perfection - the best that exists (condition rarity) that some people pay a bazillion dollars for a coin that has a mintage of a bazillion? The price is high because someone else wants the coin as I don't personally care what someone else collects or what they paid. No, I want to know what anything someone else has costs.
"Original" has a number of meanings. Perhaps the one most of us numismatic book worms use is "as made as it dropped off the press." Thus each new coin out of millions struck could be called "original" for a time.
@CaptHenway said: "Please tell me which is more desirable, a stable, consistent grade, or one that swings wildly with the market?
I'm in agreement with you. Commercial grading is not consistent and has changed over time as the grading standards of older collectors was abandoned! No informed collector could possibly disagree.
I read here and and on other forums (see the archives here - 100 pages and I'm not through) that precise and accurate grading that never changes due to passing time or fluctuations in a coin's value in the market that is based on a standard that never changes is technical grading.
From what I have read, the ANACS grading service did not grade that way. It would be impossible because the graders at the ANA had to deal with changing grading standards in addition to not knowing the value of coins in the marketplace. I heard a dealer friend of my father's say the ANA tried to hire him and in the interview he told the director that the ANACS grading had no relevance to what was going on in the commercial coin market! By that time the old standard for Mint State was history.
I'll need more time to reply more as I want to read what you have linked.
@Pearlsbefore. I got a copy of Taxay's Encyclopedia shortly after it came out. It was very informative in that is mentioned many dates that did not exist in Uncirculated, as compared to the Redbook which used to price every line in every grade. I also like his "U.S. Mint and Coinage." I got him to autograph my copy when he visited the Editorial offices at Coin World while I worked there.
We did not have to deal with changing grading standards because we basically used the printed standards in the grading book, except for the few grades that I personally made up such as AU-58, MS-63 and MS-67. We discussed those standards in house before using them, and then tried to stick with them until a new edition was published that included them.
We did not know or care about the value of coins in the marketplace because that does not affect the technical grade. I graded the Garrett 1804 Dollar the same way I graded any other Bust Dollar. We happened to agree with the Garrett cataloguer that it was an EF-40, or Proof-40 if you prefer. Nowadays, thanks to the wonders of market grading, it is in a 55 holder IIRC. That is, of course, utter nonsense.
And for the record, I left ANACS in the Summer of 1984 in protest over the unjust firing of our Office Manager. I take no responsibility for any changed in the grading standards used after that time.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
"Pattern" is one term that I'm not very satisfied with because it's used to mean a piece used to test new production composition and methods, but the largest category of pieces called patterns are actually fantasy coins made for collectors.
@Zoins said:
"Pattern" is one term that I'm not very satisfied with because it's used to mean a piece used to test new production composition and methods, but the largest category of pieces called patterns are actually fantasy coins made for collectors.
Amen!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@DNADave said:
Ok no one had said it so here’s mine: Advanced collector.
BS. Advanced just means they have more money than they know what to do with most of the time.
I’ve mostly seen this in coin descriptions by sellers, not collectors describing themselves, I think it’s used to make buyers feel better about spending more.
I think the term “advanced collector” can legitimately be used with respect to collectors of coins which are rare and/or valuable and/or esoteric and/or varieties.
I've "advanced" into being a senior collector having advanced from years ago being a young collector.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@s4ny said:
The term EF. It's XF. It just annoys me. ...
>
>
Actually, I have always found XF to not be logical. It exist because of its onomatopoeic value (had to look up the spelling on that one) for sounding like the grade words Extremely Fine and the unofficial Extra Fine.
The XF abbreviation is the only one that doesn't represent the words used for the grade.
P or Po = Poor
F or Fr = Fair
AG = About Good
G = Good
VG = Very Good
F = Fine
VF = Very Fine
EF = Extremely Fine
AU = About Uncirculated
MS = Mint State
The ANA official system, Sheldon system, and the old Photograde all use EF.
PCGS uses XF. Don't recall if any other grading services do that.
While I prefer EF, I can use both since XF has long been accepted by the market. Neither annoy me as long as the grading is accurate.
.
Lets compromise and call it EXF.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
I get it that there are A LOT of 1908, 1924, and 1927 Saints in MS condition, but I’ve always cringed when they’re shrugged off as “generic”.
It seems disrespectful of their beauty and history.
It could just be me as the first coin I bought was a 1924 Saint in MS 63. (Bought in 1992 for $455)
The S&P averaged $416 in 1992. It closed Friday at $2788. Of course you would not have enjoyed this beautiful coin almost 30 years, so there is that.... Certainly more attractive than pure generic gold, like K-Rands.
However at the moment the S&P and gold seem to be moving in opposite directions. So we will see.
@dogwood said:
As long as “bespoke” doesn’t work it’s way into numismatic terms, I’ll be happy.
AMEN!!!
Last month I wrote a letter to the editor of a car magazine when "bespoke" appeared twice within about forty words. Until, last year in another car magazine I had never seen the word and had to look it up. Basically, it is a stupid and pretentious word probably brought over here from some British twit. You can drop the word completely from a sentence it is used in and not change anything being written. I cannot even think of a bespoke way to use it in order to illustrate my point.
@CaptHenway said: @Pearlsbefore. I got a copy of Taxay's Encyclopedia shortly after it came out. It was very informative in that is mentioned many dates that did not exist in Uncirculated, as compared to the Redbook which used to price every line in every grade. I also like his "U.S. Mint and Coinage." I got him to autograph my copy when he visited the Editorial offices at Coin World while I worked there.
We did not have to deal with changing grading standards because we basically used the printed standards in the grading book, except for the few grades that I personally made up such as AU-58, MS-63 and MS-67. We discussed those standards in house before using them, and then tried to stick with them until a new edition was published that included them.
We did not know or care about the value of coins in the marketplace because that does not affect the technical grade. I graded the Garrett 1804 Dollar the same way I graded any other Bust Dollar. We happened to agree with the Garrett cataloguer that it was an EF-40, or Proof-40 if you prefer. Nowadays, thanks to the wonders of market grading, it is in a 55 holder IIRC. That is, of course, utter nonsense.
And for the record, I left ANACS in the Summer of 1984 in protest over the unjust firing of our Office Manager. I take no responsibility for any changed in the grading standards used after that time.
And a very noble thing you did. I thought it was the Librarian that got let go. Anyway, things worked out for you.
I liked the idea of an ANA Grading Guide. Unfortunately, it had some problems. It is too bad that the coin dealers that mattered didn't use it.
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS). Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!
@dogwood said:
As long as “bespoke” doesn’t work it’s way into numismatic terms, I’ll be happy.
AMEN!!!
Last month I wrote a letter to the editor of a car magazine when "bespoke" appeared twice within about forty words. Until, last year in another car magazine I had never seen the word and had to look it up. Basically, it is a stupid and pretentious word probably brought over here from some British twit. You can drop the word completely from a sentence it is used in and not change anything being written. I cannot even think of a bespoke way to use it in order to illustrate my point.
For cars, I've seen bespoke to mean custom, 1-off commissions.
In coins, it would seem appropriate for fantasy coin patterns since they were ordered by collectors.
I think exonumia would be much better off if the hobby picked another term for this.
Agreed. Or just included it with numismatics. I mean, things like baseball cards, stamps, postcards, and so many things that people collect are way further "outside numismatics" than elongated cents, wooden nickels, and medals. The latter group is just as much a part of numismatics as Lincoln cents, Buffalo nickels, and Morgan dollars.
It doesn't make much sense that the second you stick penny into an elongation machine, it no long is a piece of numismatics. Even coins counterstamped by "West Indian" and Brazilian governments (and all other counterstamped coins) are all of the sudden "outside of numismatics." Love tokens, "good for" tokens, Civil War tokens. Some of these objects have seen greater circulation and greater public acceptance as money than certain pieces of "actual" numismatics.
The list of "exonumia" is long, but to me its all numismatics.
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS). Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!
@Pearlsbefore said: @dogwood said:
As long as “bespoke” doesn’t work it’s way into numismatic terms, I’ll be happy.
AMEN!!!
Last month I wrote a letter to the editor of a car magazine when "bespoke" appeared twice within about forty words. Until, last year in another car magazine I had never seen the word and had to look it up. Basically, it is a stupid and pretentious word probably brought over here from some British twit. You can drop the word completely from a sentence it is used in and not change anything being written. I cannot even think of a bespoke way to use it in order to illustrate my point.
It turns out all of our words were brought over here by "some British twit". Bespoke simply means custom-made. The term originated on Saville Row in London in the 19th century where custom suits were frequently made from fabrics on display. If someone wanted a suit from a fabric that was already reserved, the clerk would say that fabric "be spoken for", or so the folklore goes.
Hardly seems like something worth investing negative emotional energy on. YMMV.
@SanctionII said:
The term "Rare" is a hobby term that can be very annoying, as it is often used to create a false truth.
This is a good one. What does rare really mean anyway. A piece of my kids artwork is "rare" even unique, but probably would not be worth much on the secondary market.
@Pearlsbefore said: @dogwood said:
As long as “bespoke” doesn’t work it’s way into numismatic terms, I’ll be happy.
AMEN!!!
Last month I wrote a letter to the editor of a car magazine when "bespoke" appeared twice within about forty words. Until, last year in another car magazine I had never seen the word and had to look it up. Basically, it is a stupid and pretentious word probably brought over here from some British twit. You can drop the word completely from a sentence it is used in and not change anything being written. I cannot even think of a bespoke way to use it in order to illustrate my point.
It turns out all of our words were brought over here by "some British twit". Bespoke simply means custom-made. The term originated on Saville Row in London in the 19th century where custom suits were frequently made from fabrics on display. If someone wanted a suit from a fabric that was already reserved, the clerk would say that fabric "be spoken for", or so the folklore goes.
Hardly seems like something worth investing negative emotional energy on. YMMV.
I thank you for that interesting tidbit. Then I was right that it was from England. Thankfully a lot of archaic words have been dropped by writers in the USA. I'm from the south and I finally stopped using southern slang. Now, I appear to be more educated when I am around twits and snobs.
The way you described the origin of that word makes perfect sense. I appreciate your post very much and I suspect if my letter is published the editor will answer it in the same entertaining way. The fault lies with the twits using it. For example, If I write that my car has Portimao Blue Metallic paint and your car has the same bespoke paint, I have broken two rules of writing. I left in a useless word and most of my readers don't even know what I'm talking about. Furthermore, a bespoke tire or car part that is on every model is not "custom made" in any way.
@Zoins said:
"Pattern" is one term that I'm not very satisfied with because it's used to mean a piece used to test new production composition and methods, but the largest category of pieces called patterns are actually fantasy coins made for collectors.
I feel similarly about "proof". How many proofs are actually proofs? Coins made as a proof of concept or as a design prototype for approval or something like that. In the same vein PL just means reflective surfaces when a true proof doesn't need to have reflective surfaces.
For me, I recognize a pattern. I feel every time I get excited about a new series it seems everywhere I look I see interesting items to buy and almost anything at any price will do. Being hot is a good clean fun while also dangerous place to be financially, another topic...
As I get completely immersed, enthusiastically hunting down information and studied on what’s really out there and possible, I naturally get more discriminating. Somewhere along the way my personal criteria and attributes I’m seeking get pretty fine. I would say at some point I become Advanced in the series and finding pieces that are All There and at a price that I can stomach come along less frequently. Sometimes, it appears the the only offerings to choose from is total Dreck, a term I mutter under my breath in frustration at the picked over and pitiful, subpar offerings that would never grace the holy magnitude of my precious collection.
Dreck is a burnout term. It’s my problem, and I keep it to myself so not to be a buzz kill on others. I feel that for every single coin offered for sale, there is a perfect collection for it, so I would never say it publicly. I absolute say it in my inner monologue when I’m about ready to transition into another collecting avenue.
Originally "first strike" used to mean the first coin struck by a new set of dies. Not sure what it means anymore.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I hate the use of the term "pedigree" when used to describe a coin. It should only be used for living things. It is especially annoying since Provenance represents perfectly what we are trying to say.
Pedigree
1. the record of decent of an animal showing it to be purebred.
2. the recorded ancestry, especially upper-class ancestry, of a person or family.
Provenance (from the French provenir, 'to come from/forth') is the chronology of the ownership, custody or location
of a historical object.
@Tomthecoinguy said:
I hate the use of the term "pedigree" when used to describe a coin. It should only be used for living things. It is especially annoying since Provenance represents perfectly what we are trying to say.
Pedigree
1. the record of decent of an animal showing it to be purebred.
2. the recorded ancestry, especially upper-class ancestry, of a person or family.
Provenance (from the French provenir, 'to come from/forth') is the chronology of the ownership, custody or location
of a historical object.
+1
Everytime someone uses great pedigree in the context of a coin, I immediately think of a dog, which probably isn't what they wanted me to associate with it.
@Tomthecoinguy said:
I hate the use of the term "pedigree" when used to describe a coin. It should only be used for living things. It is especially annoying since Provenance represents perfectly what we are trying to say.
Pedigree
1. the record of decent of an animal showing it to be purebred.
2. the recorded ancestry, especially upper-class ancestry, of a person or family.
Provenance (from the French provenir, 'to come from/forth') is the chronology of the ownership, custody or location
of a historical object.
+1
Everytime someone uses great pedigree in the context of a coin, I immediately think of a dog, which probably isn't what they wanted me to associate with it.
The word "coin" when it is improperly applied to any round, metallic object that should properly be called a token or a medal or a medallion or???
As just one example, and let me say that I have great respect for our Military, a "Military Challenge Coin" is not a coin. Likewise, a "Shell Coin Game" game piece is not a coin. I am sure you could cite hundreds of other examples.
In today's Denver Post there is an article reprinted from the Loveland Reporter Herald about a company local to them which normally produced key chains and belt buckles and other metallic items. They are being hurt by the current economic crisis, so they got the idea to produce a "commemorative appreciation coin" that people could buy and give to health care workers and other frontline workers. The design is very simple, and as far as I can tell from the picture the pewter pieces just say "COLORADO STRONG" on both sides around a "C" as seen on the Colorado flag.
It is a noble gesture, but it is not a coin.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
I don't mind 'widget' nearly as much as I dislike 'dreck'. To me, widget just means something that is easily obtainable, you just have to pay the going price. It does not mean it is not nice, it just is not rare at all. But 'dreck' is a direct diss.
Not being an 'Advanced' collector, I have to settle for 'widgets' most of the time. But I don't count any of it 'dreck'.
As long as “bespoke” doesn’t work it’s way into numismatic terms, I’ll be happy.
I have both widgets and dreck. Another word for widget is “common”. I’m not sure why people just don’t use “common”.
I have dreck which can be holed and low and damaged condition. I think dreck is like one of those words that’s more acceptable to use for your own coins than someone else’s.
Private treaty is an interesting term to me. A lot of my private treaties are just naming or accepting a price and discussing shipping via email. Somehow, it doesn’t seem as glorious as other treaties.
From what I can tell, it seems a private treaty is just a private transaction.
I’ve mostly seen this in coin descriptions by sellers, not collectors describing themselves, I think it’s used to make buyers feel better about spending more.
I think there’s a more objective way to evaluate luster than eye appeal.
A combination of luster, strike and lack of marks would be an object way to evaluate eye appeal.
Toning is the hard one as it is very subjective. Many high grade coins can appear to have negative toning appeal to many, at least via the photos posted here.
I think the term “advanced collector” can legitimately be used with respect to collectors of coins which are rare and/or valuable and/or esoteric and/or varieties.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree that it can be used that way, but I don’t see many such collectors calling themselves advanced. Numismatist is the term I see collectors use more.
As mentioned, I see “advanced collector” used more by sellers than collectors. Do you know of collectors that call themselves advanced?
Actually, the best example of a market graded coin would be a VF Buffalo Nickel without a full to the tip horn.
Because they are "technically" a VF coin by "overall wear", they become "market acceptable".
Just my 2 Cents (or two Pennys) worth.
Pete
Already posted: original, estate, widget and dreck
If we were all the same, the world would be an incredibly boring place.
Tommy
"Lowball". Not so much for the playfulness of the word, yet rather because it is so misused. Many believe lowball is defined as any POS that is close to junk. In truth it is a problem free ultra worn coin. If it is damaged (and worn) it isn't a lowball.
peacockcoins
Your posting regarding the term "Numismatist" brought to mind a statement shared with me in a private correspondence by Numimatist Q. David Bowers:
" ... there are good lawyers and bad lawyers just as there are with coin dealers. At least you have the American Bar Association to regulate - or try to regulate - attorneys. In coins there are no rules whatsoever - and anyone can claim to be a professional numismatist."
What I said in a nutshell.
But not anyone can claim to be a Professional Numismatist with the Guild
The Professional Numismatist Guild regulates numismatists in their membership.
Whether or not this is enough regulation for certain scenarios has been the topic of some debate.
Lowball is the lowest coin that is also "Registry Quality", to throw another term into the ring.
I wonder if people "time the market" for grading?
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Actually, I have always found XF to not be logical. It exist because of its onomatopoeic value (had to look up the spelling on that one) for sounding like the grade words Extremely Fine and the unofficial Extra Fine.
The XF abbreviation is the only one that doesn't represent the words used for the grade.
P or Po = Poor
F or Fr = Fair
AG = About Good
G = Good
VG = Very Good
F = Fine
VF = Very Fine
EF = Extremely Fine
AU = About Uncirculated
MS = Mint State
The ANA official system, Sheldon system, and the old Photograde all use EF.
PCGS uses XF. Don't recall if any other grading services do that.
While I prefer EF, I can use both since XF has long been accepted by the market. Neither annoy me as long as the grading is accurate.
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"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Yes, good one that I forgot about.
Registry quality coin, lol.
Any coin can be used in the registry which makes any PCGS coin Registry quality.
PO1 to MS70.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
A coins luster is important to determine the originality of a coin's surface. Since the original luster on a coin can take many different forms, it cannot be taken into consideration for a technical grade. I myself prefer the the blast white frost on a CC dollar rather than the luster on a 1903. While both coins are technically original and mint state - the same technical grade - one looks dull and has much less eye appeal - to me. Subjectivity of any kind should not be considered for a technical grade because you throw precision out the window as soon as eye-appeal, value, rarity, ownership, market conditions, etc. influences the grade.
@Raybo said: "One term that always drives me nuts is "condition rarity".
Actually, this is a valid term IMO. The second book I read in my father's library (The Red book was the first) was Taxay's encyclopedia. Some coins are listed as: Rare above _______. That's possibly the first time I came into contact with condition rarity. That's one reason - the search for perfection - the best that exists (condition rarity) that some people pay a bazillion dollars for a coin that has a mintage of a bazillion? The price is high because someone else wants the coin as I don't personally care what someone else collects or what they paid. No, I want to know what anything someone else has costs.
@1northcoin
"Original" has a number of meanings. Perhaps the one most of us numismatic book worms use is "as made as it dropped off the press." Thus each new coin out of millions struck could be called "original" for a time.
@CaptHenway said: "Please tell me which is more desirable, a stable, consistent grade, or one that swings wildly with the market?
I'm in agreement with you. Commercial grading is not consistent and has changed over time as the grading standards of older collectors was abandoned! No informed collector could possibly disagree.
I read here and and on other forums (see the archives here - 100 pages and I'm not through) that precise and accurate grading that never changes due to passing time or fluctuations in a coin's value in the market that is based on a standard that never changes is technical grading.
From what I have read, the ANACS grading service did not grade that way. It would be impossible because the graders at the ANA had to deal with changing grading standards in addition to not knowing the value of coins in the marketplace. I heard a dealer friend of my father's say the ANA tried to hire him and in the interview he told the director that the ANACS grading had no relevance to what was going on in the commercial coin market! By that time the old standard for Mint State was history.
I'll need more time to reply more as I want to read what you have linked.
shotgun rolls
@Pearlsbefore. I got a copy of Taxay's Encyclopedia shortly after it came out. It was very informative in that is mentioned many dates that did not exist in Uncirculated, as compared to the Redbook which used to price every line in every grade. I also like his "U.S. Mint and Coinage." I got him to autograph my copy when he visited the Editorial offices at Coin World while I worked there.
We did not have to deal with changing grading standards because we basically used the printed standards in the grading book, except for the few grades that I personally made up such as AU-58, MS-63 and MS-67. We discussed those standards in house before using them, and then tried to stick with them until a new edition was published that included them.
We did not know or care about the value of coins in the marketplace because that does not affect the technical grade. I graded the Garrett 1804 Dollar the same way I graded any other Bust Dollar. We happened to agree with the Garrett cataloguer that it was an EF-40, or Proof-40 if you prefer. Nowadays, thanks to the wonders of market grading, it is in a 55 holder IIRC. That is, of course, utter nonsense.
And for the record, I left ANACS in the Summer of 1984 in protest over the unjust firing of our Office Manager. I take no responsibility for any changed in the grading standards used after that time.
"Pattern" is one term that I'm not very satisfied with because it's used to mean a piece used to test new production composition and methods, but the largest category of pieces called patterns are actually fantasy coins made for collectors.
I know Obverse & Reverse is the proper terminology, but isn't it more fun to just use Heads & Tails?
I like driving my car in obverse
Amen!
I've "advanced" into being a senior collector having advanced from years ago being a young collector.
Lets compromise and call it EXF.
The S&P averaged $416 in 1992. It closed Friday at $2788. Of course you would not have enjoyed this beautiful coin almost 30 years, so there is that.... Certainly more attractive than pure generic gold, like K-Rands.
However at the moment the S&P and gold seem to be moving in opposite directions. So we will see.
AMEN!!!
Last month I wrote a letter to the editor of a car magazine when "bespoke" appeared twice within about forty words. Until, last year in another car magazine I had never seen the word and had to look it up. Basically, it is a stupid and pretentious word probably brought over here from some British twit. You can drop the word completely from a sentence it is used in and not change anything being written. I cannot even think of a bespoke way to use it in order to illustrate my point.
And a very noble thing you did. I thought it was the Librarian that got let go. Anyway, things worked out for you.
I liked the idea of an ANA Grading Guide. Unfortunately, it had some problems. It is too bad that the coin dealers that mattered didn't use it.
Exonumia.
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!
I think exonumia would be much better off if the hobby picked another term for this.
For cars, I've seen bespoke to mean custom, 1-off commissions.
In coins, it would seem appropriate for fantasy coin patterns since they were ordered by collectors.
Agreed. Or just included it with numismatics. I mean, things like baseball cards, stamps, postcards, and so many things that people collect are way further "outside numismatics" than elongated cents, wooden nickels, and medals. The latter group is just as much a part of numismatics as Lincoln cents, Buffalo nickels, and Morgan dollars.
It doesn't make much sense that the second you stick penny into an elongation machine, it no long is a piece of numismatics. Even coins counterstamped by "West Indian" and Brazilian governments (and all other counterstamped coins) are all of the sudden "outside of numismatics." Love tokens, "good for" tokens, Civil War tokens. Some of these objects have seen greater circulation and greater public acceptance as money than certain pieces of "actual" numismatics.
The list of "exonumia" is long, but to me its all numismatics.
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!
I know that a group likes to have its own special words, but I've never liked the term "obverse."
While I think "reverse" is just fine, why not just call the obverse what it is: the "front."
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
It turns out all of our words were brought over here by "some British twit". Bespoke simply means custom-made. The term originated on Saville Row in London in the 19th century where custom suits were frequently made from fabrics on display. If someone wanted a suit from a fabric that was already reserved, the clerk would say that fabric "be spoken for", or so the folklore goes.
Hardly seems like something worth investing negative emotional energy on. YMMV.
"Found in 200 year old safe"
This is a good one. What does rare really mean anyway. A piece of my kids artwork is "rare" even unique, but probably would not be worth much on the secondary market.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
I thank you for that interesting tidbit. Then I was right that it was from England. Thankfully a lot of archaic words have been dropped by writers in the USA. I'm from the south and I finally stopped using southern slang. Now, I appear to be more educated when I am around twits and snobs.
The way you described the origin of that word makes perfect sense. I appreciate your post very much and I suspect if my letter is published the editor will answer it in the same entertaining way. The fault lies with the twits using it. For example, If I write that my car has Portimao Blue Metallic paint and your car has the same bespoke paint, I have broken two rules of writing. I left in a useless word and most of my readers don't even know what I'm talking about. Furthermore, a bespoke tire or car part that is on every model is not "custom made" in any way.
"Choice" as a grade always seemed nebulous to me.
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
I feel similarly about "proof". How many proofs are actually proofs? Coins made as a proof of concept or as a design prototype for approval or something like that. In the same vein PL just means reflective surfaces when a true proof doesn't need to have reflective surfaces.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
For me, I recognize a pattern. I feel every time I get excited about a new series it seems everywhere I look I see interesting items to buy and almost anything at any price will do. Being hot is a good clean fun while also dangerous place to be financially, another topic...
As I get completely immersed, enthusiastically hunting down information and studied on what’s really out there and possible, I naturally get more discriminating. Somewhere along the way my personal criteria and attributes I’m seeking get pretty fine. I would say at some point I become Advanced in the series and finding pieces that are All There and at a price that I can stomach come along less frequently. Sometimes, it appears the the only offerings to choose from is total Dreck, a term I mutter under my breath in frustration at the picked over and pitiful, subpar offerings that would never grace the holy magnitude of my precious collection.
Dreck is a burnout term. It’s my problem, and I keep it to myself so not to be a buzz kill on others. I feel that for every single coin offered for sale, there is a perfect collection for it, so I would never say it publicly. I absolute say it in my inner monologue when I’m about ready to transition into another collecting avenue.
Originally "first strike" used to mean the first coin struck by a new set of dies. Not sure what it means anymore.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I hate the use of the term "pedigree" when used to describe a coin. It should only be used for living things. It is especially annoying since Provenance represents perfectly what we are trying to say.
Pedigree
1. the record of decent of an animal showing it to be purebred.
2. the recorded ancestry, especially upper-class ancestry, of a person or family.
Provenance (from the French provenir, 'to come from/forth') is the chronology of the ownership, custody or location
of a historical object.
Join the fight against Minnesota's unjust coin dealer tax law.
Anything sent to a TPGS in a sealed box from the mint within a month after the first one was struck. LOL. I'm making a joke as I don't know either.
+1
Everytime someone uses great pedigree in the context of a coin, I immediately think of a dog, which probably isn't what they wanted me to associate with it.
Great pedigree!!
It' technical if you agree & market if you don't.
My Saint Set
Why isn't there a LAST STRIKE label?
The word "coin" when it is improperly applied to any round, metallic object that should properly be called a token or a medal or a medallion or???
As just one example, and let me say that I have great respect for our Military, a "Military Challenge Coin" is not a coin. Likewise, a "Shell Coin Game" game piece is not a coin. I am sure you could cite hundreds of other examples.
In today's Denver Post there is an article reprinted from the Loveland Reporter Herald about a company local to them which normally produced key chains and belt buckles and other metallic items. They are being hurt by the current economic crisis, so they got the idea to produce a "commemorative appreciation coin" that people could buy and give to health care workers and other frontline workers. The design is very simple, and as far as I can tell from the picture the pewter pieces just say "COLORADO STRONG" on both sides around a "C" as seen on the Colorado flag.
It is a noble gesture, but it is not a coin.