If you call the police, you can easily set him up.
I’ve seen that done before on the news.
A Guy bought 3 fake gold bars. Told the seller he wanted to buy the rest the seller had. And had police around hiding ready to take action. It turned out successful.
Collector 75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting! instagram.com/klnumismatics
@PerryHall said:
The real ones have two vertical die polish lines that cross just to the left side of the vertical upright of the T in CENT. You'll need a good loupe or magnifier and good lighting to see it.
True but on a coin such as this they will not be present. Neither will most other diagnostics on the reverse.
@wroclaw1220 said:
Greetings everybody
I have this 1955 penny
is it worth to grade it ?
Thank you
Jerry
Now that we know it is a counterfeit, let's see the edge because they are usually sharp, squared off and shiny. Also send the fake to the ANA in CO rather than trash it. They can use it in class.
Regarding the Saint.
The numbers are good and the barcode scans as good.
Can't tell much from the pictures but the holder & coin look OK from what I can see.
The back of the insert bothers me a bit though.
I've never seen a holder so damaged.
You could also have someone selling some stolen/ authentic goods.
Considering the damage around the edge of the slab, is it possible a real 1929 Saint was cracked out of a real slab and a fake coin was substituted with the label and the slab was then resealed?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
There is a minor issue with bringing this to law enforcement (Which you should do by the way)
You must prove that the seller KNEW the material was counterfeit. If you can not prove that, there is no case. That is precisely the reason to report it, so if he does it again, then he KNOWS what he did and it becomes a crime.
Think about it for a second. You bought a coin/gold anything for that matter, and had no clue it was counterfeit. Then you decided to sell it. So you should go to jail for that??? I don't think in a million years anyone would want to send you to jail for that. If so, then our jails would be even more overcrowded.
The police will not get involved with a dispute about returning something, especially with NO paperwork.
Very interesting on the 1929. The counterfeiters have apparently gotten smarter, as this coin shows valid in the PCGS data base (Which almost all do) however, the big difference here is this coin has never been to auction, so its impossible to compare the fake slab to the real one. Nicely done MR Counterfeiter.
You may also want to try Doug Davis of the Anti Counterfeiting Task Force (of which I'm a board member) There is a possibility they could work some sort of sting, but given what we are in now, I can't imagine it's a priority.
@PerryHall said:
The asking price is a small fraction of what it would be worth if it were real. That tells you all you need to know.
I know but he kept repeating that his business collapsed overnight and is desperate for cash, the buying points are closed due to coronavirus.
It was making sense to me
I got the police report ,now I have to take it to Civil court.
Still have no evidence of paying cash and that is biggest problem.
Police officer said "you will win this case"
@segoja said:
There is a minor issue with bringing this to law enforcement (Which you should do by the way)
You must prove that the seller KNEW the material was counterfeit. If you can not prove that, there is no case. That is precisely the reason to report it, so if he does it again, then he KNOWS what he did and it becomes a crime.
Think about it for a second. You bought a coin/gold anything for that matter, and had no clue it was counterfeit. Then you decided to sell it. So you should go to jail for that??? I don't think in a million years anyone would want to send you to jail for that. If so, then our jails would be even more overcrowded.
The police will not get involved with a dispute about returning something, especially with NO paperwork.
Very interesting on the 1929. The counterfeiters have apparently gotten smarter, as this coin shows valid in the PCGS data base (Which almost all do) however, the big difference here is this coin has never been to auction, so its impossible to compare the fake slab to the real one. Nicely done MR Counterfeiter.
There are two outcomes (aside from "nothing happening"): the seller refunds the money, and/or the seller gets arrested
A visit fro the police might be enough to generate a refund. Whether the seller knew it was fake or not, he at least owes the buyer a refund.
Also, the free 55 DD was the seller's downfall. Absent that coin, the OP might never have learned the gold bar was likely fake. Also, the fake cent helps make the case against the seller. It is a valuable coin if real, so giving it away for free is a tipoff that he knew his stuff is fake
First, I believe the OP here, and I believe he was scammed, but proving it beyond a reasonable doubt is another thing. If this is a professional scammer, and I think he is, he will play dumb or whatever with the police. And yes the OP should go to the police.
So what were the terms of the deal form a legal perspectivel???? Yes they communicated, but its a he said she said deal. What if the seller says the buyer is trying to scam him??? i.e., the seller sold the real deal and the buyer is giving him a fake back. No paperwork is a killer, and the OP has never said what he paid for the gold. I'm guessing it was way under market, which should be a huge red flag to the buyer.
The fake 55 was free, and it sounds like the seller never represented it as a valuable coin. Again, the burden of proof lies with the government. They guy gave away a penny. So it's fake. You must still prove he knew it was fake, and I'm not convinced giving away a counterfeit coin is a crime. I'd be willing to bet no police dept in the country would prosecute someone giving away anything fake, unless there was a large volume involved or a long standing, proven, pattern of this type of behavior.
If the OP could somehow find an e-bay/baidu/alibaba account linked to the seller that showed he bought fake merchandise and is now selling it, that might go a long way to proving he knowingly sold fakes.
The only way to get this guy arrested is to inform him that he is selling fakes (I think only law enforcement can do this and have it hold up in court...sting operation ) and then catch him selling the same thing. If he has fake coins, the police can confiscate them, but they are not coin experts so how do they really know that the material is fake.
As much as I hate to say it, is very difficult to prove these cases. With the relatively low dollar amount involved here and no physical threats or injuries most law enforcement just doesn't care.
Considering the damage around the edge of the slab, is it possible a real 1929 Saint was cracked out of a real slab and a fake coin was substituted with the label and the slab was then resealed?
Have you ever tried cracking a coin out of a PCGS slab and being able to reseal it??? The slab in question and the insert are as fake as the coin.
Kind of sums it up....unless of course you can get audio video tape of him saying that.
Like I said, cops could care less.
Small claims court will throw it out. You have absolutely no paperwork. You''ll spend a couple hundred bucks filing the claim. Even if you win (which I doubt) you still have to collect. The courts will not do that for you.
@wroclaw1220 said:
The seller knows whats hes doing. He told me "If I dont know this is fake then I can`t get in trouble "
Actually, if it is fake then law enforcement will confiscate all of them. Then they will look into if the seller has been notified by anyone if they are counterfeit. If the seller then refuses to authenticate them, they can be charged accordingly. The seller will be asked for documentation on how they acquired the fakes as part of the investigation. Ignorance of the law is not a defense. Try driving a stolen car and see what happens.
Your link is currency. Big difference. Secret Service cares a ton about currency, and very little about coins, even less about bullion (sad but true)
You are correct about ignorance of the law, however, your statement about confiscation and sellers proving authenticity are not at all accurate. I wish you were right, however practical case prove you are incorrect.
If you are right about proving authenticity, then anyone that buys anything can just go to the police and say it's fake, and the seller would need to have said item authenticated. Imagine the backlog if that were the case. So the item is proven authentic, the buyer now just gets to keep it. Do they pay the fees, how does this get adjudicated? lots of open questions.
If you think I'm wrong, show my links to prove your statement (s)
Sounds like he’s bad news to me. Take your loss and forget him. It’s very strange he would want to continue more sales with you? There are some bad people out there.
Sooner or later, this seller will sell a fake to the wrong person who will give him some well deserved "street justice".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
He is very confident in the scamming,
I told him " You hurt my family in this difficult times and I have sick children, but I will pray for you " . And he laughed at me
@wroclaw1220 said:
He is very confident in the scamming,
I told him " You hurt my family in this difficult times and I have sick children, but I will pray for you " . And he laughed at me
I’ve never used Craigslist. Is there any type of feedback or reporting mechanism? Or contact information for the site?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the suspect is not within the USA, you're s o l. Forensic evidence must determine where the suspect is. Using whois, ISP search and domain info is needed as a critical part of any investigation. IMO. Peace Roy
Put 100's of CL ads up, with his info, stating his stuff is fake. Plaster them all over CL over and over. Have all your friends flag his ads as fast as they come up.
Have some friends arrange a buy, and NICELY, no violence, confrontation, threats, etc. demand money back.
I know of one person who, when scammed, put the person's email and phone number on every bad site around, white nationalist, porn site, etc. He also put tons of cl ads up for unrelated stuff, free cases of diapers, cheap auto parts with the guys info to bury him in CL responses.
@wroclaw1220 said:
He is very confident in the scamming,
I told him " You hurt my family in this difficult times and I have sick children, but I will pray for you " . And he laughed at me
He is pure evil.
Thankfully I have run into very few of these people, but they are out there.
I'm likely going to regret posting this, but I've been following this throughout and just have to give another perspective.
This entire thread is a cluster-you-know-what. If you aren't a forum troll just here to manipulate the boards then you have gone through many steps of this transaction wrong. Given that, and given that some members are nudging you into what might be more confrontational, coercive or stalking behavior, I would suggest caution since the person you are dealing with seems to be local, has some sort of contact information from or for you and might not be someone you want to tangle with.
I realize it is harsh, but you might have been foolish with your funds and now they may be gone. Local law enforcement is also typically much too busy to track down what they consider low level scams. So, it might be that you beg (which doesn't appear to do any good in this case), you agitate or confront (who the heck knows where this goes from that point) or perhaps you learn to be a bit wiser (and this can be painful). Regardless of what you choose, your decisions here have the potential to create a snowball effect.
@TomB yes, a lot of wisdom in there. The seller is a crook and you never know what else he might be into. The fake gold might be tip of the iceberg. If nothing else, I am sure his criminal activities will come back to bite him at some point.
I am easy to manipulate -heard that before couple of times ,
Perhaps I don't fit to this world.
This world of coin/bullion collecting is sick & over half involved are crooks, including legitimate looking dealers.
Many make Bernie Madoff look like a choir boy.
It's an extreme sport for fat people.
If PCGS didn't exist, I wouldn't be collecting at all...100% Fact.
Comments
At that price on the 1929 Saint, you can be confident that the coin is counterfeit.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If you call the police, you can easily set him up.
I like that idea.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I’ve seen that done before on the news.
A Guy bought 3 fake gold bars. Told the seller he wanted to buy the rest the seller had. And had police around hiding ready to take action. It turned out successful.
Collector
75 Positive BST transactions buying and selling with 45 members and counting!
instagram.com/klnumismatics
True but on a coin such as this they will not be present. Neither will most other diagnostics on the reverse.
Now that we know it is a counterfeit, let's see the edge because they are usually sharp, squared off and shiny. Also send the fake to the ANA in CO rather than trash it. They can use it in class.
What @291fifth said 100%.
Regarding the Saint.
The numbers are good and the barcode scans as good.
Can't tell much from the pictures but the holder & coin look OK from what I can see.
The back of the insert bothers me a bit though.
I've never seen a holder so damaged.
You could also have someone selling some stolen/ authentic goods.
My Saint Set
Considering the damage around the edge of the slab, is it possible a real 1929 Saint was cracked out of a real slab and a fake coin was substituted with the label and the slab was then resealed?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Double whammy.
There is a minor issue with bringing this to law enforcement (Which you should do by the way)
You must prove that the seller KNEW the material was counterfeit. If you can not prove that, there is no case. That is precisely the reason to report it, so if he does it again, then he KNOWS what he did and it becomes a crime.
Think about it for a second. You bought a coin/gold anything for that matter, and had no clue it was counterfeit. Then you decided to sell it. So you should go to jail for that??? I don't think in a million years anyone would want to send you to jail for that. If so, then our jails would be even more overcrowded.
The police will not get involved with a dispute about returning something, especially with NO paperwork.
Very interesting on the 1929. The counterfeiters have apparently gotten smarter, as this coin shows valid in the PCGS data base (Which almost all do) however, the big difference here is this coin has never been to auction, so its impossible to compare the fake slab to the real one. Nicely done MR Counterfeiter.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
You may also want to try Doug Davis of the Anti Counterfeiting Task Force (of which I'm a board member) There is a possibility they could work some sort of sting, but given what we are in now, I can't imagine it's a priority.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Con artists thrive on careless, impulsive targets. CL is ghetto commerce at best. No thanks. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8
I know but he kept repeating that his business collapsed overnight and is desperate for cash, the buying points are closed due to coronavirus.
It was making sense to me
I got the police report ,now I have to take it to Civil court.
Still have no evidence of paying cash and that is biggest problem.
Police officer said "you will win this case"
There are two outcomes (aside from "nothing happening"): the seller refunds the money, and/or the seller gets arrested
A visit fro the police might be enough to generate a refund. Whether the seller knew it was fake or not, he at least owes the buyer a refund.
Also, the free 55 DD was the seller's downfall. Absent that coin, the OP might never have learned the gold bar was likely fake. Also, the fake cent helps make the case against the seller. It is a valuable coin if real, so giving it away for free is a tipoff that he knew his stuff is fake
Holder looks like a gen 4.1 (2002-2004) or copy (I can't tell for sure but it looks good from here)
From the PCGS site.
My Saint Set
JBK Posts
First, I believe the OP here, and I believe he was scammed, but proving it beyond a reasonable doubt is another thing. If this is a professional scammer, and I think he is, he will play dumb or whatever with the police. And yes the OP should go to the police.
So what were the terms of the deal form a legal perspectivel???? Yes they communicated, but its a he said she said deal. What if the seller says the buyer is trying to scam him??? i.e., the seller sold the real deal and the buyer is giving him a fake back. No paperwork is a killer, and the OP has never said what he paid for the gold. I'm guessing it was way under market, which should be a huge red flag to the buyer.
The fake 55 was free, and it sounds like the seller never represented it as a valuable coin. Again, the burden of proof lies with the government. They guy gave away a penny. So it's fake. You must still prove he knew it was fake, and I'm not convinced giving away a counterfeit coin is a crime. I'd be willing to bet no police dept in the country would prosecute someone giving away anything fake, unless there was a large volume involved or a long standing, proven, pattern of this type of behavior.
If the OP could somehow find an e-bay/baidu/alibaba account linked to the seller that showed he bought fake merchandise and is now selling it, that might go a long way to proving he knowingly sold fakes.
The only way to get this guy arrested is to inform him that he is selling fakes (I think only law enforcement can do this and have it hold up in court...sting operation ) and then catch him selling the same thing. If he has fake coins, the police can confiscate them, but they are not coin experts so how do they really know that the material is fake.
As much as I hate to say it, is very difficult to prove these cases. With the relatively low dollar amount involved here and no physical threats or injuries most law enforcement just doesn't care.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Considering the damage around the edge of the slab, is it possible a real 1929 Saint was cracked out of a real slab and a fake coin was substituted with the label and the slab was then resealed?
Have you ever tried cracking a coin out of a PCGS slab and being able to reseal it??? The slab in question and the insert are as fake as the coin.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Last think I want is sending him to prison.
I want my money back,
Coin & holder look good from here.
Pictures aren't good enough to tell for sure
Here is another look at the back of a 4.1 holder. (real on top)
I suspect stolen.
My Saint Set
@segoja yes, that is unfortunately most likely true.
Here is a obvious fake 29
Bar code scans as a 27
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/974739/terrible-counterfeit-1929-20-pcgs-ms65-on-ebay
Pictures....
My Saint Set
The scratches on those slabs make every coin look heavily hairlined.
He keeps sending me messages with offers of buying more from him . He insists they are all real gold
I'd try to get law enforcement interested in a sting operation.
I wen to 3 different police dept . Best I got is police report.
I felt like no one wants to do anything
The seller knows whats hes doing. He told me "If I dont know this is fake then I can`t get in trouble "
Kind of sums it up....unless of course you can get audio video tape of him saying that.
Like I said, cops could care less.
Small claims court will throw it out. You have absolutely no paperwork. You''ll spend a couple hundred bucks filing the claim. Even if you win (which I doubt) you still have to collect. The courts will not do that for you.
The guy is a pro, and he found a target.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Actually, if it is fake then law enforcement will confiscate all of them. Then they will look into if the seller has been notified by anyone if they are counterfeit. If the seller then refuses to authenticate them, they can be charged accordingly. The seller will be asked for documentation on how they acquired the fakes as part of the investigation. Ignorance of the law is not a defense. Try driving a stolen car and see what happens.
https://www.treasury.gov/about/organizational-structure/offices/Treasurer-US/Pages/if-you-suspect.aspx
The Secret Servicw in theory might have a stake in this sort of case.
Isaiah58
Your link is currency. Big difference. Secret Service cares a ton about currency, and very little about coins, even less about bullion (sad but true)
You are correct about ignorance of the law, however, your statement about confiscation and sellers proving authenticity are not at all accurate. I wish you were right, however practical case prove you are incorrect.
If you are right about proving authenticity, then anyone that buys anything can just go to the police and say it's fake, and the seller would need to have said item authenticated. Imagine the backlog if that were the case. So the item is proven authentic, the buyer now just gets to keep it. Do they pay the fees, how does this get adjudicated? lots of open questions.
If you think I'm wrong, show my links to prove your statement (s)
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Sounds like he’s bad news to me. Take your loss and forget him. It’s very strange he would want to continue more sales with you? There are some bad people out there.
Sooner or later, this seller will sell a fake to the wrong person who will give him some well deserved "street justice".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
He is very confident in the scamming,
I told him " You hurt my family in this difficult times and I have sick children, but I will pray for you " . And he laughed at me
I’ve never used Craigslist. Is there any type of feedback or reporting mechanism? Or contact information for the site?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the suspect is not within the USA, you're s o l. Forensic evidence must determine where the suspect is. Using whois, ISP search and domain info is needed as a critical part of any investigation. IMO. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8
Put 100's of CL ads up, with his info, stating his stuff is fake. Plaster them all over CL over and over. Have all your friends flag his ads as fast as they come up.
Have some friends arrange a buy, and NICELY, no violence, confrontation, threats, etc. demand money back.
I know of one person who, when scammed, put the person's email and phone number on every bad site around, white nationalist, porn site, etc. He also put tons of cl ads up for unrelated stuff, free cases of diapers, cheap auto parts with the guys info to bury him in CL responses.
He is pure evil.
Thankfully I have run into very few of these people, but they are out there.
The tear I shed is over the fact that it is taking so long.
I'm likely going to regret posting this, but I've been following this throughout and just have to give another perspective.
This entire thread is a cluster-you-know-what. If you aren't a forum troll just here to manipulate the boards then you have gone through many steps of this transaction wrong. Given that, and given that some members are nudging you into what might be more confrontational, coercive or stalking behavior, I would suggest caution since the person you are dealing with seems to be local, has some sort of contact information from or for you and might not be someone you want to tangle with.
I realize it is harsh, but you might have been foolish with your funds and now they may be gone. Local law enforcement is also typically much too busy to track down what they consider low level scams. So, it might be that you beg (which doesn't appear to do any good in this case), you agitate or confront (who the heck knows where this goes from that point) or perhaps you learn to be a bit wiser (and this can be painful). Regardless of what you choose, your decisions here have the potential to create a snowball effect.
Good luck.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I am easy to manipulate -heard that before couple of times ,
Perhaps I dont fit to this world.
As Clint Eastwood once said "A man's got to know his limitations".
We all have them, so I suppose the trick is to figure out what they are and make the appropriate accommodations.
@TomB yes, a lot of wisdom in there. The seller is a crook and you never know what else he might be into. The fake gold might be tip of the iceberg. If nothing else, I am sure his criminal activities will come back to bite him at some point.
@wroclaw1220 said:
This world of coin/bullion collecting is sick & over half involved are crooks, including legitimate looking dealers.
Many make Bernie Madoff look like a choir boy.
It's an extreme sport for fat people.
If PCGS didn't exist, I wouldn't be collecting at all...100% Fact.
My Saint Set