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Ferdinand VII with large chops
jayPem
Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
Found this languishing in my PO box..from a recent auction in Mexico. It didn't look very nice in the auction pics and looks even worse in mine, but I was delighted when I opened the envelope...it's really quite nice in hand. Lots of deep copper and gold toning and luster hidden around the chops and crust...goes to show how hard some coins can be to photograph 😉
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Sea salvaged? Seems like chops are all the rage these day. Cool addition.
Latin American Collection
Very nice detail, a later date for the type as well. Sweet score!
Here's my own example for the Mexico City Ferd VII 8R:
Not sea salvaged, but that would be beyond cool! I'm not aware of any sea salvaged chopped 8r's out there?
It doesn't look to be dug either...just poor pics 🙄
All the rage...but also there have been a couple big time pieces turned up recently it seems, so interest is high!
I kind of regret selling off so many of mine several years ago, I'd be stoked to be able to buy a few of them back.. 😢
Here are the auction pics as well..
Much better than mine, but like I said it's even better in hand!
(That 1814...Wow!)
Oh wow, that is a stark difference. I see why you took a flyer on it
Latin American Collection
A lot of these tend to be hoard finds - hence the crustiness. This piece certainly has still tolerable surfaces... but when you see ones that are beyond this in terms of environmental effects, it's not a terrible surprise why so many on the market showed up heavily cleaned and/or polished.
In what ways do you imagine these hoards of crusty/wrecked coins were stashed away?
Also, now I am curious about any ship wreck recovered chopped pieces...seems like there would be some. Probably not many though?
You'll see news articles about new construction in China unearthing previously buried hoards that contain a substantial number of chopmarked coins from circulation (it's believed that this is where many examples of chopmarked cobs originate from), and he sheer number of wrecks around SE Asia coupled with the date range and commonly encountered nature of chopmarked coins among circulating silver during the period means they aren't really uncommon.
Most of the wrecks that yield these coins are completely unrecorded, or simply can't be traced. This is from the 'Batang-Hari' Inlet wreck, the only chopmarked example discovered from the site, purchased directly from the salvager. 1644/4/3 Potosi 8R:
This is much later, from the wreck of the USS Charleston, which was carrying circulating silver during the Philippine-American War to protect it from raids on local banks. 1886-Go Mexico 8R:
And this one (not mine), is a US Capped Bust Half Dollar recovered from the wreck of the Central America. The circumstances that took this coin there must have been fascinating:
So you are assuming the host coin is legit? What's the weight and can we see the edges, please.
Well ... I guess I'll assume that whoever chopped it thought it was legit 😂
But I will do the usual weight and edge pics when I get home.
This is actually a duplicate for me. I have the same date, assayer large chops etc..so it'll be interesting to look at the two closely as well.. although neither are exactly great specimens for minute comparison..
So you are assuming the chops are legit, too?
Look, I'm no expert in these but I understand that the real chops were done by hand. Forgers sometimes impress the fake chops too strongly, as if done by a machine press, and most of the chops on the OP example seem to deform the surrounding metal much more than you typically see.
Without a doubt, anything is possible in the world of fakes I guess.
I'm no expert either but I have a couple of ideas to consider.
I believe this is a rather common coin. Common portrait 8's are counterfeited for sure but I doubt that the level of sophistication would be extremely high with those.
The value of this coin hasn't gone up by adding chopmarks, or made it easier to sell. So why would a counterfeiter go to all the trouble?
The chops on this example look authentic to me.
Really, because some look very blunt compared to the sharply defined chops in the 1814 example.
I have learned to be suspicious of 8 reales in general. They are just very hard to authenticate with or without chops and I do not believe that the presence of chops lends any weight to the host being genuine.
Weight is good. Here are a few pics.
So what is the weight in grams to two decimal places, please. The portrait is struck up nicely and I only see light circulation wear so the weight should be very near to 27g.
I can see a spot in the first two edge photos where it looks like three rectangles in a row. That is where the edging mill overlapped the design by one element, impressing a rectangle over a circle. Can you point out where on the other edge pictures would be the exact opposite from the three rectangles, because you should see an overlap of one element length there too. This is an important authentication characteristic because many forgers don't bother to use a parallel edging mill, which by design will always impart an overlap of the same length on opposite sides of the edge.
Every 8R is fake... trust nothing.
jgenn, I will inform you, is particularly looking at this through the lens of a piece that popped up on coincomm. tonight, with small-style chops, looks decent/normally toned at first glance from afar... and is definitely fake.
The Chinese superfake rings that kept popping up on eBay around 2013-16 were peddling, in addition to German thalers and such, a decent amount of portrait 8Rs - including quite a few chopmarked pieces.
MAYBE a few of these were genuine coins used as models... but the assumption is most were created by their own hand.
And yes, fake dark crud was in their arsenal.
I will post later with some pics, etc. Am going through some whole completed auction pages I had saved from some of the more prolific of those superfake sellers, cross-checking some of those listings on Worthpoint to get obv/rev pics... which is showing others clearly from that ring (they tended to use the same kind of titles, etc.).
jgenn, there can be Devil's Advocate/abundance of caution... and there can be Mary Contrary. While a really deep counterstamp (and the same would apply to a chop) often is a sign of modern imprinting, you see PLENTY of pieces with larger-style chops (where the example is undoubtedly genuine) with the chops really smashed into the coin.
Also,
I think that might be an effect of the not great pics from either jayPem's first attempt or the auction house... PLUS the fact that there's crud in those in those recessed chops. I think jay's 2nd set of pics show things better.
I think the piece is legit.
Eh... some are messy/not particularly good... some are pretty perfect.
Is it really THAT much trouble for something you can sell for $60, 70, 80 dollars?? Also, keep in mind, some people LIKE the chops. Isn't that kinda the point of this thread??!
I appreciate that you guys look at these things with a critical eye, also definitely appreciate the knowledge you're sharing as well.
I'm aware that counterfeits are a big issue, but I guess I was assuming that the really well done fakes would most likely be rare dates and such? High value stuff?
Common date circulated Mo Ferdins? These are being faked with such exact detail?
I'm not saying they're not, but..?
I like finding raw stuff in the wild, and have bought many 8's over the years. The only ones I actually keep are the crustier ones with "character"...all of the nice pieces I've picked have been sent in to pcgs, enjoyed for awhile and eventually flipped.
I've maybe had 30 or so graded and haven't had any come back as counterfeit.
But that doesn't mean anything, other than I've just gotten lucky I suppose.
😉
The first piece is P58:
@realeswatcher I don't remember seeing that post on CC - I'll search for it. Interesting die markers on that 1805. Flatness on the portrait, distance between 8 and R and a die chip under the H jump out at me at first glance, but i'll spend some time with those images and the CC post and go through my archive as well.
I'm all giddy - @realeswatcher and @jgenn posting together in the same thread on this forum! Is it my birthday?
8 Reales Madness Collection
The post on CC I was referring to, Roman, was just last night... a 1798 w/chops. As noted, not the most convincing fake.
The 1805 montage above wasn't from CCF... I just posted it as an example of fairly common material being executed decently enough to fool. Lots of IDing marks there... and the soft center shield is a huge tell. I think some of that is wear on the model coin, which I figure was only XFish or so.
I know I/we have gotten off the initial point of this thread... sorry, jayPem.
That 1798 is spooky, based on the chops alone, I wouldn't consider the coin to be suspect, and the type is indeed very common with chops. If it's a forgery, I'm also surprised at the degree of effort that forgers are willing to put into everyday chopmarked coins. Always have put a premium on provenance, this only reinforces that.
Not at all!
When you are talking to someone who's willing to buy raw, there really can be no more important topic 😬
But your comment on another thread got me thinking...would "Plata agria" indicate an authentic coin, or are they able to fake that as well??
Here is another 1819 Ferdinand with chops...and plenty of Plata agria.
Jgenn... I'm limited to our kitchen scale at the moment. My friend down the street with the proper scale isn't seeing visitors right now🙁
But both of these are 27g
As to the edges. I found the spot with 3 rectangles but unfortunately the edges are quite dinged up and there's not much to see on the opposite side.
The 2nd 1819 I posted has even worse edges..
How effective are the TPG's are identifying these counterfeits?
Latin American Collection
From above, it sounds like some are getting through..?
A couple of close ups of an area the two coins don't match up.
Pretty sure this is just a case of different reverse dies?
A slight improvement in my carppy pics for anyone who wants to look a bit closer in.
Given the brief time the "graders" look at a coin, I don't think they spend the effort to check many key diagnostics for authentication unless we are talking about a scarce or valuable item. I don't think they even weigh a common coin unless it's a cob.
I think the OPs coin would easily get into a TPG's slab. Afterall, what does it cost them to honor a "details" guarantee and who would take the effort to "prove" to the TPG that the coin is not genuine.