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Civil War Token Pedigrees

ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited December 27, 2022 4:58PM in U.S. Coin Forum

This is a thread to list and keep track of notable Civil War Token pedigrees / provenances. I collect Civil War Tokens and have a number from various noted collectors but don't know much about them so I figured I'd start a list and try to find out something about these notable collectors and collections.

Some names that appear in my collection include Bowers, Ford, Newman, Rossa, South, Tanenbaum, and Zabriski.

Here's an initial list from the links below. The ones with stars are the ones mentioned as notable by Hayden and in the Mark Glazer collection article, both linked below, along with QDB and Rossa.

  1. Robert N "Bob" Adams
  2. Dr. Herman Aqua
  3. Ken Bauer
  4. Mark Bendett
  5. Alan Bleviss
  6. Q. David Bowers *
  7. Dale Cade *
  8. Benj Fauver
  9. John Ford *
  10. George Fuld *
  11. Mark Glazer *
  12. Richard Gross
  13. Jon Harris *
  14. Rich Hartzog
  15. James Holtel *
  16. Bryon Kanzinger *
  17. Walter Korzick
  18. Joe Kuehnert *
  19. Ernie Latter
  20. Eric P. Newman
  21. Michael Parkoff (Tampa Collection?)
  22. Donald Groves Patrick
  23. Fred Reed *
  24. Tom Reed
  25. Ed Rosen *
  26. Rich Rossa *
  27. Len Rothstein
  28. Donald Schramm
  29. Henry South *
  30. Wayne Stafford
  31. Ben Swanson
  32. Steve Tanenbaum *
  33. Clifton Temple
  34. Charles Thobaben
  35. Susan Trask
  36. Charles Urquart *
  37. Doug Watson
  38. Cindy Wibker *
  39. Larkin Wilson *
  40. Andrew Zabriski *

Notable collections mentioned by Steve Hayden / @SteveHayden

@SteveHayden said:
I have had the pleasure (with and without Steve) of selling many important collections over the years including Charles Urquart, Larkin Wilson, James Holtel, Ed Rosen, Henry South, Bryon Kanzinger and more recently Steve Tanenbaum's Civil War Sutler token collection.

A lists of pedigrees / provenances in Mark Glazer's collection is noted to be like a Who’s Who of Patriotic Civil War tokens:

Comments

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for sharing

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020 9:28AM

    It would be nice to have some info on each of these collectors.

    Here's some:

    • Q. David Bowers: certified and sold a reference set collection, some of which was acquired from Tanenbaum's estate, including Rich Rossa's collection
    • Mark Glazer: a top collection featuring specimens from George Fuld, Henry South, Cindy Wibker, Jon Harris, Joe Kuehnert, Dale Cade, Andrew Zabriski, John Ford. Fred Reed, and Steve Tanenbaum. Portions of his collection were sold to Bret Palser and Rick Snow while others were sold by Steve Hayden.
    • Richard Rossa: specialized in New York Civil War Tokens.
    • Steve Tanenbaum: collection was sold by his estate for over $2M to Steve Hayden and Q. David Bowers separately. Hayden purchased the patriotic, Indiana, Michigan and Wisconsin portions and Bowers purchased the Ohio, New York, Illinois and Tennessee portions.
  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    People have pedigrees. Tokens/coins/paintings, etc. have provenances.

    thefinn
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2020 9:56AM

    @thefinn said:
    People have pedigrees. Tokens/coins/paintings, etc. have provenances.

    I mentioned both terms in the original post, but PCGS uses pedigree. Part of the reasoning for using the PCGS term is to get PCGS more involved in updating this info. I'll change the title when our host changes. For example:

    https://www.pcgs.com/cert/85120720

  • CWT1863CWT1863 Posts: 316 ✭✭✭✭

    Great list! Looking at the spreadsheet for my collection, here are some that are not listed:

    • Dr. Herman Aqua
    • Doug Watson
    • Wayne Stafford
    • Rich Hartzog
    • Susan Trask
    • Ernie Latter
    • Ken Bauer
    • Walter Korzick
    • Len Rothstein
    • Ben Swanson
    • Tom Reed
    • Donald Schramm
    • Charles Thobaben
    • Clifton Temple

    ANA-LM, CWTS-LM, NBS, TAMS, ANS

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,973 ✭✭✭✭✭

    David Schenkman is another all time great collector of civil war tokens, especially Sutlers.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @thefinn said:
    People have pedigrees. Tokens/coins/paintings, etc. have provenances.

    I mentioned both terms in the original post, but PCGS uses pedigree. Part of the reasoning for using the PCGS term is to get PCGS more involved in updating this info. I'll change the title when our host changes. For example:

    https://www.pcgs.com/cert/85120720

    I know that many people know the difference, and sometimes it is unfortunate when incorrect terms are used in reference materials and publications. Then the error is perpetuated in perpetuity. ;)

    thefinn
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CWT1863 said:
    Great list! Looking at the spreadsheet for my collection, here are some that are not listed:

    Thanks and added! :+1::+1:

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is the Maumee Valley Collection notable?

  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    At least the bulk part of The Maumee Valley Collection is infamous among a certain group of wholesale buyers with the name invoked when groups of semi-slick and physically filthy coins are encountered.

    To the point, no it is not noteworthy in regards to CWTs at all.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2020 6:02AM

    Added Michael Parkoff of Coinco Investments. He's collected since the 1960s. Anyone know him?

    Based on his inventory, it looks like he may also be the "Tampa Collection" that just sold on Stack's as there is an overlap of pieces.

    https://www.collectorscorner.com/dealer/default.aspx?dealerId=1005&pt=1

    I started collecting civil war tokens in the early 1960’s with the help of a little black Patriotic Civil Token Guide and little black Civil War Storecard Guide by the Fulds. From there I turned it into what I thought was a pretty nice collection of about 3000 slabbed patriotic and civil war tokens. I have sold a group of them to help my daughter purchase her 4th dental office and have about 800 remaining which I feel are the cream of the crop and now, being retired, it is time to let them to go to their next home and I have created this website to share these tokens with the rest of the collecting community.

    I have included many rare tokens across the various states. I have followed the sale of my former tokens and have noticed the market for those Civil War tokens was and continues to be extremely strong, and I think that now, early in 2020, it is even more dynamic. With the government giving away all this free money there HAS TO BE INFLATION NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE WILL TELL YOU and these tokens as rare as they are, will ALWAYS RETAIN THEIR PREINFLATION VALUE and rise with or greater than the rate of inflation. That is a virtual guarantee.

    At this point in time I have not stopped purchasing tokens in the higher grades and will continue to do so. They are cheap at today’s prices.

    Over the years, I have purchased the cream of the collections of Steve Tanenbaum and Richard Rossa, Dave Bowers, Henry South, and private collectors such as Walter Korzick, Richard Hartzog, Steve Hayden and Ernie Latter, to name a few, and there remain many R-10 (unique) pieces, many mint errors, double strikes, strikeover cents/dimes and brockages. I fondly remember the auctions bidding against Steve Tanenbaum for the double strikes and brockages. Please review the list and if you have any questions or comments please feel free to call, text or email me:

    Phone: 1.561.254.2868
    Email: info@civilwartokens.net

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2021 9:35AM

    I just picked up the following token that's attributed to "R. Williams". My first thought was that it would be great to have a token owned by Robin Williams, but I think it's supposed to be Robert Williams who has been mentioned as a collector by Steve Hayden. Anyone know Robert Williams?

    General McClellan - United States Copper - White Metal - F-138/434e - R8 - PCGS MS64 - Ex Robert Williams, Steve Hayden

    https://www.pcgs.com/cert/40250886

  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bob Williams was a long time token & coin dealer from Ferndale, Michigan who was in his 90's (IIRC) when he died within the past year. He worked in the auto industry for many years and also was a major dealer in small auto related collectibles. Bob was one of the first people I met when I ventured to my first IKO token show (Indiana-Kentucky--Ohio) many years ago. We developed a long friendship and did a ton of business together. He was mild mannered and got along well with the Michigan dealers giving him access to much of the exonumia that came on the market in that region. He did a lot of business with the well known JIm Curto among others.

    Bob & I talked frequently on the phone about tokens, college basketball, some of the other goofy dealers and everything in between. At shows he always had a 24 or 48 slot stock book waiting behind his table with items of interest that he put back for me. He was one of those magnets where the good material always seemed to find its way to him mostly because he did things the right way. He had some personal collections (more automotive than exonumia) which he sold to various dealers later in his life. Bob was another one of the good guys in my end of the business that have left us too frequently over the past several years.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2021 12:47AM

    1863 Frank B. Orr Washington Token - Copper Nickel - Fuld OH505B-2d - R9 - PCGS MS65+ - Ex. B. Adams, Steve Hayden (d)

    Steve Hayden sold this token for $555.05 on Jan 24, 2021.

    The label on the reverse indicates it was owned by B. Adams. Anyone know him? Did he author a reference book?

    Is this Bob Adams mentioned here:

    https://www.civilwartokens.com/Event/LotDetails/2762442/246-MI845A1a-R6-Raw-EF-Saginaw-City-Michigan-Civil-War-token

  • truebloodtrueblood Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭

    Can we add Bushnell to the list?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2021 9:35PM

    @trueblood said:
    Can we add Bushnell to the list?

    Do you mean Charles I. Bushnell or Ira S. Bushnell? Do you have an example Civil War token attributed to him?

    Here's a token for Charles that was done by August Sage.

    Charles I. Bushnell - A.B. Sage's Numismatic Gallery - Ex. James Curto, Q. David Bowers

  • truebloodtrueblood Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2021 8:29AM

    @Zoins said:

    @trueblood said:
    Can we add Bushnell to the list?

    Do you mean Charles I. Bushnell or Ira S. Bushnell? Do you have an example Civil War token attributed to him?

    Here's a token for Charles that was done by August Sage.

    Charles I. Bushnell - A.B. Sage's Numismatic Gallery - Ex. James Curto, Q. David Bowers

    You got that right , Charles I. Bushnell of course. Is he worthy of your list?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2021 8:44AM

    @trueblood said:

    @Zoins said:

    @trueblood said:
    Can we add Bushnell to the list?

    Do you mean Charles I. Bushnell or Ira S. Bushnell? Do you have an example Civil War token attributed to him?

    Here's a token for Charles that was done by August Sage.

    Charles I. Bushnell - A.B. Sage's Numismatic Gallery - Ex. James Curto, Q. David Bowers

    You got that right , Charles I. Bushnell of course. Is he worthy of your list?

    Generally, I like to be able to identify at least one specimen from the person’s collection. That’s more of a hard rule on the SCD list but I’d like to make it a rule here too. Can you point to any tokens from his collection?

  • truebloodtrueblood Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭

    Charles I Bushnell owned for one the Silver 1861 Fort Sumter medal, and a copper and white metal examples too.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @trueblood said:
    Charles I Bushnell owned for one the Silver 1861 Fort Sumter medal, and a copper and white metal examples too.

    That's a nice, large medal, but I've yet to see a Civil War Token attributed to him yet.

    This hard times token was thought to be commissioned by Bushnell but is now thought to be done by J. N. T. Levick and Henry Davenport.

    https://www.civilwartokens.com/Event/LotDetails/2683417/419-LOW-24-HT38-R7-UNC-Details-Bushnell-Hard-Times-token

  • Bruce7789Bruce7789 Posts: 397 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2021 9:31PM

    I'm sure most of you know this already, but will post it for any newbies to the forum:

    There is a Civil War tokens Society based here in Tucson, AZ. Membership is only $17.00 and for that you get access to numerous Quarterly Journals, Books and research. For those interested, the address is:

    Civil War Token Society
    P.O. Box 32891
    Tucson, AZ 85751
    When I joined, I received everything shown in the picture below to include the Quarterly journals as shown.

    Lots of information for little bucks!

  • CWT1863CWT1863 Posts: 316 ✭✭✭✭

    @Bruce7789 said:
    I'm sure most of you know this already, but will post it for any newbies to the forum:

    There is a Civil War tokens Society based here in Tucson, AZ. Membership is only $17.00 and for that you get access to numerous Quarterly Journals, Books and research. For those interested, the address is:

    Civil War Token Society
    P.O. Box 32891
    Tucson, AZ 85751
    When I joined, I received everything shown in the picture below to include the Quarterly journals as shown.

    Lots of information for little bucks!

    Thanks for mentioning the CWTS! It is a great organization and as you mentioned you get a lot of bang for you buck with dues currently at $18 a year. The Society's website is cwtsociety.com. If anyone is considering joining, feel free to reach out via PM with any questions. In addition to the Rhode Island and Die Sinker books by Q. David Bowers, I believe his book on the Wealth of the South tokens should be coming out in the near future.

    ANA-LM, CWTS-LM, NBS, TAMS, ANS

  • Bruce7789Bruce7789 Posts: 397 ✭✭✭✭

    They have a large book available for $40.00 (I think) that lists about 300 CWT's, rarity and I think values. Meant to get one the other day when I went by, but they were closed. Heck of a thing for a coin shop to be closed before 11:00 PM!

  • SimpleCollectorSimpleCollector Posts: 536 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am curious, are there any top either collections or collectors of civil war tokens now that are publicly collecting. It would be interesting to see some top collections.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 24, 2021 9:28PM

    @SimpleCollector said:
    I am curious, are there any top either collections or collectors of civil war tokens now that are publicly collecting. It would be interesting to see some top collections.

    I vote for @DCW, @CWT1863 and @BillJones!

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2022 3:17AM

    Here's an IOOF token that sold from Benj Fauver's collection:

    https://www.civilwartokens.com/Event/LotDetails/3296009/7-58439-a-R3-PCGS-MS65-RB-Odd-Fellows-Patriotic-Civil-War-token

    Steve Hayden said:
    7 - 58/439 a R3 PCGS MS65 RB Odd Fellows Patriotic Civil War token
    7 - 58/439 a R3 PCGS MS65 RB 40% Red more so on the obverse and nicely toned. 1863 Indian Head with popular Odd Fellows reverse die featuring bow and arrows, all seeing eye and heart in palm of hand. We sold a PCGS MS63 BN example on eBay for $380.50 in September 2021. From the Benj Fauver collection and from our April 1999 auction. (500-750)

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2022 5:01PM

    Here's another one from Bob Williams per Steve Hayden:

    https://www.civilwartokens.com/Event/LotDetails/3299397/35-181343-b-R8-PCGS-MS65-Brass-Franz-Sigel-Patriotic-Civil-War-token

    Steve Hayden said:
    35 - 181/343 b R8 PCGS MS65 Brass Franz Sigel Patriotic Civil War token
    35 - 181/343 b R8 PCGS MS65 70% Bright. Franz Sigel Union For Ever 1864. Rare obverse die where seven stars replace the Hero Of Pea Ridge motto. Quite nice for this die combination which often comes with a variety of issues. From the Robert Williams collection. (750-1000)

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's another from George Fuld and QDB:

    https://www.civilwartokens.com/Event/LotDetails/3303027/65-481493B-b-R8-PCGS-MS63-Patriotic-Civil-War-token

    Steve Hayden said:
    65 - 481/493B b R8 PCGS MS63 Patriotic Civil War token
    65 - 481/493B b R8 PCGS MS63 30% Bright. 1844 Hope and anchor muled with Fremont & Dayton The Peoples Choice around eagle struck in Brass. The reverse die was only used in this die combination. We sold a Raw EF Details with significant planchet crack on eBay in October 2021 that realized $568.88. From the Dave Bowers and George Fuld collections, earlier from us via a want list. (2000-3000)

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And one from Larkin Wilson:

    https://www.civilwartokens.com/Event/LotDetails/3302543/61-287520-b-R9-PCGS-MS63-Brass-Silver-Mine-Patriotic-Civil-War-token

    Steve Hayden said:
    61 - 287/520 b R9 PCGS MS63 Brass Silver Mine Patriotic Civil War token
    61 - 287/520 b R9 PCGS MS63 30% Bright, very well struck and early die state. Silver Mine Token with 1860 Capped Bust Liberty struck in Brass. Both dies are attributed to die sinker Escherich of Chicago. His dies are often crudely struck. This is the current Fuld plate for 520 die which is normally seen well worn with problems. This example is head and shoulders above any others we have seen from any combination. While die 287, when seen, is usually high grade, it also almost invariably has a large cud at the upper right that completely or partially obliterates three or four letters. We sold a Raw MS63 example of 287/417 d in our July 2007 sale that brought $4,408.54. From the Dave Bowers, Steve Tanenbaum, Larkin Wilson and George Fuld collections, earlier from Bowers and Merena's November 1995 sale. (4000-6000)

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,473 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This PA 765 J-1a, is not that important from the standpoint of condition, but it was owned by George Fuld and was the plate token in the Fulds' store card book.


    I have a number of pieces from the Cindy Wibker collection. When she decided to sell her collection, which was over 5,000 pieces, she consigned them to Steve Tannenbaum. I sold a lot of them as a dealer and kept some for my collection.

    Her tastes were similar to mine. She liked R&B Uncs., sometimes with more brown than red, with stable, original surfaces. This Indiana Primitive came from her collection.

    I don't know that too many people knew this, but Steve Tannenbaum had a degree from MIT. He was brilliant man who got to make his passion into a business.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,473 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2022 8:17AM

    Here is another ex Cindy Wibker token. When I was dealer, I could never find this piece with any red on it. This one was the best I had seen up to that time.

    The dies for this piece were made by John Marr, who is my favorite Civil War token die maker. There has been speculation that Charles Kleinsteuber stuck Marr's tokens. This is one of those CWTs that is about the size of a quarter.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,973 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Donald Partrick is also a big name that is missing. His vast collection was just sold off a couple years back.
    Here is a lovely piece I just picked up from Hayden's auction that was ex. Partrick

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • MWallaceMWallace Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Formerly in @DCW collection.

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,973 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MWallace
    Nice one! I love how when you rotate that token the dual Indian faces are always looking opposite from each other. A real Escher piece!

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • MWallaceMWallace Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DCW said:
    @MWallace
    Nice one! I love how when you rotate that token the dual Indian faces are always looking opposite from each other. A real Escher piece!

    Agreed. I'm happy to have it in my collection as my only overstruck example.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tokenpro said:
    Bob Williams was a long time token & coin dealer from Ferndale, Michigan who was in his 90's (IIRC) when he died within the past year. He worked in the auto industry for many years and also was a major dealer in small auto related collectibles. Bob was one of the first people I met when I ventured to my first IKO token show (Indiana-Kentucky--Ohio) many years ago. We developed a long friendship and did a ton of business together. He was mild mannered and got along well with the Michigan dealers giving him access to much of the exonumia that came on the market in that region. He did a lot of business with the well known JIm Curto among others.

    Bob & I talked frequently on the phone about tokens, college basketball, some of the other goofy dealers and everything in between. At shows he always had a 24 or 48 slot stock book waiting behind his table with items of interest that he put back for me. He was one of those magnets where the good material always seemed to find its way to him mostly because he did things the right way. He had some personal collections (more automotive than exonumia) which he sold to various dealers later in his life. Bob was another one of the good guys in my end of the business that have left us too frequently over the past several years.

    Thanks for posting this. It's great to have first hand information on great collectors. His pieces really stand out in quality to me and I'm glad you knew him and are able to write this. I'm sorry to hear of his passing. He sounds like a great person to know!

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    Here is another ex Cindy Wibker token. When I was dealer, I could never find this piece with any red on it. This one was the best I had seen up to that time.

    The dies for this piece were made by John Marr, who is my favorite Civil War token die maker. There has been speculation that Charles Kleinsteuber stuck Marr's tokens. This is one of those CWTs that is about the size of a quarter.

    Very nice token Bill! I looked up Cindy and found some good articles on her including the following:

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2023 5:30PM

    @Greynick63 said:


    @Greynick63 This is a pedigree thread. I see you posted some photographs without a name.

    What collector or dealer name is associated with this token?

    If there's no pedigree, it doesn't belong here.

  • This is not counterfeit this is a white metal cross cannon our country.
    Its on way back from NGC As genuine

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2023 8:21PM

    @Greynick63 said:
    This is not counterfeit this is a white metal cross cannon our country.
    Its on way back from NGC As genuine

    Congrats on the result! That may be relevant for one of the other threads this has been posted in, but that's immaterial to this thread which is focused on pedigrees. Even counterfeits can have pedigrees.

    Is there any collector/collection or dealer name that can be associated with this token? If so, please post it, or it will unfortunately be off-topic for this thread.

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