in late 70's and early 80's only third party grading was ANACS. They issued photo certificates and used "split grading" obverse and reverse were graded separately. I remember seeing tons of Morgan Dollars graded MS63/65. Not surprising as the obverse of a Morgan is a magnet for bag marks. Problem was that most of these had been sold as MS 65. A lot of these would probably certify as MS 64 today. (64 grade hadn't been defined yet). Third party grading as we know it today started in 1986 with the advent of PCGS. Tended to be VERY conservative. Had a well known dealer appraise some coins for me. He pronounced them MS 63 at best. Didn't agree and had them submitted to PCGS. ALL came back at higher grades (including one that made MS 66). So even though i'm an "old guy" it's just as true now as it was then. You have to and always did have to have (and always will) need a basic knowledge of grading.
The ANA Grading Guide had been published in 1977. It listed three Mint State grades, MS-60, MS-65 and MS-70. MS-70 was by definition a perfect coin, which as a rule does not exist outside of Proof coinage. We did not expect to be grading modern coinage, so when I was hired in late 1978 that left me with two Mint State grades I could use.
I had been cherrypicking and collecting, and occasionally selling to cover college tuition costs, Morgan Dollar die varieties ever since Ted Clark published a series of articles on the various 1880/79 Morgan Dollar overdates in Coin World's Collectors Clearinghouse page in 1970. This actually led to me working at Clearinghouse by 1974, but that is another story.
I looked through a lot of BU rolls of dollars while looking for overdates and varieties. While looking I could see that some coins were nicer than others. The actual grade was not important in cherrypicking, but I learned a lot about dollars while doing it.
During the four months while we were preparing to open the grading service on March 1, 1979, we asked every major dealer in the country to send us a package of ten or so coins in ungraded holders, with the dealers' grades sealed in an envelope that we did not look at until the other two Authenticators and I had graded each coin. Many dealers participated, while others declined. It was a great learning experience, but none of them sent a common Morgan dollar. They sent classic U.S. numismatic coins from the 1790's to the early 20th Century.
The main thing I learned was that we needed more grades, so I added AU-58, MS-63 and MS-67 before we started accepting coins for grading. I don't remember anybody complaining about these numbers when they got their coins back. Eventually other numbers were added as well.
This was the situation when we launched the grading service. Silver, which had crept from $5 to $6 during all of 1978, was between $7 and $8 in March and still under $10 by August. Then it started really jumping in September and the coin market exploded as well.
(End of Part 2)
YOU Sir, are indeed, THE walking talking embodiment, and definition of an OG.
Nothing but respect for you.
"Today the crumbs, tomorrow the
loaf. Perhaps someday the whole damn boulangerie." - fictional Jack Rackham
@rodepetdinosaur said: in late 70's and early 80's only third party grading was ANACS. They issued photo certificates and used "split grading" obverse and reverse were graded separately. I remember seeing tons of Morgan Dollars graded MS63/65. Not surprising as the obverse of a Morgan is a magnet for bag marks. Problem was that most of these had been sold as MS 65. A lot of these would probably certify as MS 64 today. (64 grade hadn't been defined yet). Third party grading as we know it today started in 1986 with the advent of PCGS. Tended to be VERY conservative. Had a well known dealer appraise some coins for me. He pronounced them MS 63 at best. Didn't agree and had them submitted to PCGS. ALL came back at higher grades (including one that made MS 66). So even though i'm an "old guy" it's just as true now as it was then. You have to and always did have to have (and always will) need a basic knowledge of grading.
Welcome to the forum. You are in good company. In addition to a basic knowledge of grading you need a basic knowledge of what is going on around you. Let me just say that the first sentence in your post is incorrect.
Per the previous two segments, you can see that ANACS launched its grading service in March of 1979 just a few months before the Hunt Brothers attempt to corner the silver market poured billions of dollars into coin shops, and the profits on those billions of dollars drove coin prices, and grading standards, through the roof. While we were trying to hold the grading standards as steady and consistent as possible, as we interpreted the ANA Grading Guide, "Gradeflation" (though nobody called it that back then) ran riot. The coins we were grading MS-63's were selling in the marketplace as MS-65's. The coins we were grading as MS-65's were selling in the marketplace as MS-67's. The prices in the Coin Dealer Newsletter for an MS-65 common date Morgan Dollar such as an 1881-S, which we would have graded as an MS-65, would reflect the "gradeflated" prices that those coins were bringing as MS-67's.
Certain elements of the market started loudly complaining that ANACS was undergrading coins. Basically they were saying that since the marketplace was calling the textbook MS-65 1881-S dollar an MS-67, well then ANACS should call it an MS-67 too, published grading standards be damned! They complained that it was hurting their business when they sold a coin as an MS-67 and the buyer sent it to ANACS and we only called it an MS-65. Many a fiery letter was published attacking us.
The Hunt Brothers corner collapsed in January of 1980, but by then the marketplace had developed considerable momentum. Even without the influx of money into the coin shops from the bullion trade, prices held strong and even continued to rise for a few months. The four Garrett Collection sales, starting with the first one in November of 1979 and the second one in late March of 1980, were bringing many wonderful numismatic rarities to the marketplace that had not seen the light of day for decades. Many Garrett I & II prices set records, and the coin market looked like it would continue in a tulip bulb frenzy indefinitely. Then came the Central States Numismatic Society convention in Lincoln, Nebraska right after Tax Day, 1980.
On the PNG Day that opened the show, a certain very large coin company from New England immediately began panic selling coins to raise money to cover the taxes owed on their 1979 profits and due two days earlier. Highly identifiable pieces from Garrett II were being offered at steep discounts to the high, and well-known, prices they had realized just three weeks earlier. Rather than snapping up these discounted bargains, the marketplace shuddered and everybody else tried to sell as well. Equally as important, everybody stopped buying.
In real terms, coins in general probably lost 75% of their value over the next few months. The losses were not dissimilar to those of stocks in 1929. However, there was one huge difference: a share of U.S. Steel in September of 1929, before the crash, was exactly the same share of U.S. Steel in November of 1929. It was merely worth a lot less. This was not the case with coins because of grading.
In the coin market, Gradeflation changed to Grade-DEflation. Nobody would buy coins back at the same grades that they had sold them at before the crash. In most cases the grading point drop was scandalous. Our textbook MS-65 1881-S dollar, which the Gradeflators had insisted was an MS-67 before the crash, was now suddenly an MS-63, if they were buying at all.
Meanwhile, ANACS kept on calling that textbook MS-65 coin an MS-65, and now the same people who had been screaming just a few months earlier that ANACS was undergrading were now screaming that we were overgrading, because we would not change our published grading standards to match their new, and much stricter, so-called "grading standards." The problem was exacerbated when the Coin Dealer Newsletter inexplicably did not lower their published prices to reflect the perhaps 75% loss in value. The price for an MS-65 1881-S dollar barely changed, but it was generally understood that a coin had to be a textbook MS-67 coin to merit that CDN MS-65 price, and not just a lustrous MS-63 as before.
End of Part 3
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Pricing guide prices always have to be looked at with a critical eye. That was true in the 1980s and is still true today. Owners of coins and other collectibles are very reluctant to admit their "product" has dropped in value.
The contributions here of CaptHenway should be reread and treasured. Those of us who lived through it recognize parts . . .but were NOT involved in the minutiae that brings the context of the 1980s as he was.
Bravo . . . thank you for adding depth and context to the post . . . . . . .
You're correct PerryHall. My previous post was a typo. It was the 1911 Strong D, $2.5 gold Indian , not 1909-D....
Since this thread's inception.... and re-reading it has brought a lot of good memories back. Good catch.
@Insider2 said: @50cCOMMEMGUY asked: "What was it like getting something slabbed back then?"
Are you sure you want to go there? Perhaps we should stick to AFTER 1986 to keep it real simple and not poke the dragon.
You see, now I REALLY do want to know 😀
There must be a lot to learn because I didn’t know there was anything so “controversial,” (would that be the proper term?). 🤔 Of course from a scholarly, historical perspective of course.
I often watch old videos thru the Newman Numismatic Portal and David Lisot video library. Two parts to this link. In particular was a debate on slabbing and investing vs collectors. On one side was David Hall and a couple others on the other side the curmudgeonly John Ford and a few supporters. It was the dawn of this explosion and ALOT of debate.
Welcome to the forum. You are in good company. In addition to a basic knowledge of grading you need a basic knowledge of what is going on around you. Let me just say that the first sentence in your post is incorrect.
@rodepetdinosaur said: in late 70's and early 80's only third party grading was ANACS. They issued photo certificates and used "split grading" obverse and reverse were graded separately. I remember seeing tons of Morgan Dollars graded MS63/65. Not surprising as the obverse of a Morgan is a magnet for bag marks. Problem was that most of these had been sold as MS 65. A lot of these would probably certify as MS 64 today. (64 grade hadn't been defined yet). Third party grading as we know it today started in 1986 with the advent of PCGS. Tended to be VERY conservative. Had a well known dealer appraise some coins for me. He pronounced them MS 63 at best. Didn't agree and had them submitted to PCGS. ALL came back at higher grades (including one that made MS 66). So even though i'm an "old guy" it's just as true now as it was then. You have to and always did have to have (and always will) need a basic knowledge of grading.
insider 2: Would love to learn what's incorrect. Please enlighten since you obviously know something I don't or don't remember
I was at the Central States Show in Lincoln, in 1980 ,but did not know that the market had crashed. A leading currency dealer had a $50 1882 Brown Back in XF. that I wanted. He had owned it since at least 1978. It was originally priced at $3100. At each show when I saw him we would talk about the note. The price slowly came down over a couple of years. At the Lincoln show I asked how much it was now. He asked what was the lowest price that he had quoted me. I said $2400. He said the price was now $2200. I said that I would flip a coin for it at $2200 or $2000. He pulled out a quarter and flipped it. I called heads. Heads it was and I bought it for $2000. I still have the note and it is now worth many,many times what I paid. I am glad that I did not know that the market had crashed because I might not have had the nerve to buy the note.
1972 ANACS - authentication only, paper photo certificates
1976 INSAB - authentication only, paper photo certificates
1978 INSAB - authentication and grading, paper photo certificates
1979 ANACS - authentication and grading, paper photo certificates
1985 Accugrade - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1985 Global - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1986 PCGS - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1987 NGC - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1989 ANACS - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
I would take large briefcases full of morgan dollars , 500+, to anacs in 1984, for grading for Martin Paul. He would acquire “slots” from graders that sold them to assure one day turn around . Most would grade 64 or 65. Almost every one had been washed in chlorox and would be sold to telemarketers in mass and New Jersey. I would go twice a month from natick.
I remember in 1989 or thereabout when coins were actually graded and not averaged like today. ANACS introduced their photo certificates with both the obverse and reverse graded. Today you get a single grade of the two, averaged I guess, more or less. I liked having both sides graded as both sides actually have a grade and not very likely the same. JMO.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
the 80's was my youth but I didn't get into coins until 2015, mostly from the stacker perspective via Mike Maloney videos. My reselling experience so far has reinforced my 1oz gold coin stacker mentality over all else. When JMB starts offering 280 under spot for Palladium it is hard to win even when you call the bubble right, geez. If I just stack, I don't have to worry about spots, aging, ratings, or get cheesy offers from LCS or online vendors. I can comparison shop bullion coin offers online so I just walk in and and say I'll take your online offer and not have to stand around while they put their mitts on my collectable coin then low-ball. Who needs it?! Stacking seems to cut out the middle men who take a cut like ratings agencies, Ebay, LCS bid/ask gap, etc. Another benefit of stacking - easy to assess value in real time. Who knows what my 2009 MS69PL Double Eagle would fetch at any moment. Random year AGE and Gold Buffalo, I can comparison shop 8 places without picking up the phone. I understand I'm in a collectors forum and I'm in the minority on sticking with 1oz BU gold.
1972 ANACS - authentication only, paper photo certificates
1976 INSAB - authentication only, paper photo certificates
1978 INSAB - authentication and grading, paper photo certificates
1979 ANACS - authentication and grading, paper photo certificates
1985 Accugrade - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1985 Global - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1986 PCGS - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1987 NGC - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1989 ANACS - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
Many thanks yosclimber i missed that earlier in the thread. Always thought INS was authentication only. Got re-involved in the hobby in 1979 after filling Whitman folders for Indian and Lincoln cents as a kid in the 60's.
One tiny clarification to this summary. ANACS continued offering Authentication only during and after 1979. We did ancient and foreign coins that we did not feel qualified to grade, and some people simply do not care what their coins grade. They are called "collectors."
As to the express grading "slots" that could be bought and sold, Dwight was kind enough to clarify to me that that practice began in July of 1984, after I left. I have checked with former Office Manager Mary Thompson, and she confirmed that it never happened on our watch. All coins were processed in the order that they were received, except for certain pieces that were held back pending authentication, certain pieces where another Department (such as the Museum) needed a quick decision on, and a certain 1804 Dollar.
1972 ANACS - authentication only, paper photo certificates
1976 INSAB - authentication only, paper photo certificates
1978 INSAB - authentication and grading, paper photo certificates
1979 ANACS - authentication and grading, paper photo certificates
1985 Accugrade - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1985 Global - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1986 PCGS - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1987 NGC - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1989 ANACS - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I am simply astounded at the success of this thread. As has been previously stated by myself and others, sincere thanks to CaptHenway. His posts here are documentary quality recollections and provide insight that is just mind blowing. You sir are a gem and a real OG.
A final thanks to everyone who participated. Please feel free to add more as time goes on! In the meantime, let’s get those 70’s bumping. Please. See. Next. Thread!
"Today the crumbs, tomorrow the
loaf. Perhaps someday the whole damn boulangerie." - fictional Jack Rackham
@rodepetdinosaur asked: "Would love to learn what's incorrect. Please enlighten since you obviously know something I don't or don't remember.
This: In late 70's and early 80's only third party grading was ANACS.
There were several authentication services during this time period. Once the ANA started grading coins (they were the SECOND TPGS) the others did also. PCGS and NGC took over most of the market.
@Insider2 said: @rodepetdinosaur asked: "Would love to learn what's incorrect. Please enlighten since you obviously know something I don't or don't remember.
This: In late 70's and early 80's only third party grading was ANACS.
There were several authentication services during this time period. Once the ANA started grading coins (they were the SECOND TPGS) the others did also. PCGS and NGC took over most of the market.
ANACS was and is the FIRST Authentication Service in America, still going strong after 48 years.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I unloaded a bunch of Barber Dimes in the silver run up because their melt value was higher than their numismatic value. Got an obscene amount for junk silver. There was a line around the block at the bulion place, people both buying and selling.
As another posted mentioned, I got some of my GSA $s in 1980, the earlier batch in 1979.
In the mid 80s, not so special Unc. Morgans were marketed to death and their prices reached absurd levels. There was a market crash in the late 80s. You could find all sorts of bargains then if you had the cash and attended a large show.
I actually met Bill Noyes and Walter Breen at a Long Beach show, spoke with both of them, and bought their books there.
What amazes me the most with all major rock groups back in the 80's. Nowadays, those same bands and how much revenue they made in all their careers, they now can make in ONE YEAR! Amazing. I am aware of inflation but what a ticket goes for today to see a famous 80's group is nearly $200-$300. When in the 1980's it was $15-$20! Lol
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
During my early US Air Force career, I was assigned to 24 NORAD located on Malmstrom Air Force Base, Montana. Nothing much one can do there during the winter (especially being from Hawaii). This is where I honed my skills in the hobby of all hobbies. Montana is silver country and there were dealers with bags/rolls full of silver dollars tucked away in their safe deposit boxes at the local banks.
A coin/jewelry dealer befriended me after I would look at his rotating display cases and not make a purchase. He asked me what coin interest me, my answer was silver dollars. He told me to go to the book store and buy a specific book and study it before I visited his shop again. The book was The Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace Dollars by Leroy C. Van Allen and A. George Mallis.
After completing my reading assignment I visited his shop. He pulled out a box of silver dollars and said to pick out a few silver dollars that I would like to buy. I picked out 10. He reviewed my chosen coins and said that I made some good choices and all had exceptional eye appeal. Each mint state silver dollar was $30 each. I paid him and went home to identify any VAMs from my purchase.
To my surprise I picked two 1900 O/CC Morgans. I went to another coin dealer and sold it for a handsome profit. I kept going to the original coin dealer and made periodic purchases. At one point I was putting my coins up for collateral for a loan to make more purchases. I then started to submit my Morgans to ANACS for grading, then reselling them to East Coast dealers.
At one point I was enthralled with proof-like Morgans. I drove up to Deer Lodge, Montana and visited the coin shop of Dean Tavenner (later became the cofounder of the Silver Dollar Round Table). In the shop I asked if he has any proof-like Morgans for sale. He asked me if I ever handled a proof Morgan dollar. He handed me one to look at. I was in awe. Then he brought out a tray of proof-like Morgan dollars. I cherry picked 8. They were later sent to ANACS to be graded (back then there was no PL designation).
My reseller business ended after I volunteered to cross-train into a new USAF specialty code (off to training and another duty station). I had many good memories and friendships in Montana.
Here are a few Xerox images of ANACS certificates that I could find (I know I have more packed away).
One of the first coin shops I went too here in town was between the up & down escalators in the sears dept store. I remember buying mostly pennies first, but then when i got my first BU mercury dime I was real excited . If I recall was about 4 bucks. My family would go to sears , and I hit the coin shop with my older brother(who had some intrest) and then the candy section. I do rememeber when i bought that merc dime, examaning it closely for over an hour while my older brother tried on clothes.
No coin activity for me back in the 80's. I partied like a rock star every night that I wasn't working. If only I bought gold instead I'd be partying like a rock star NOW.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
@ms70 said:
No coin activity for me back in the 80's. I partied like a rock star every night that I wasn't working. If only I bought gold instead I'd be partying like a rock star NOW.
@ms70 said:
No coin activity for me back in the 80's. I partied like a rock star every night that I wasn't working. If only I bought gold instead I'd be partying like a rock star NOW.
I partied AND bought gold. It was easy.
Then you didn't party like I did!
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Here's a Game token from Chamelot Gaming Center from about 1984 which is now Chamelot Golfland in Anaheim California (I just googled it). I saved this in my very first original Whitman box for those plastic 2x2s...
it turned up 35 years later in one of my moving boxes!
This beautiful little token represents the 10's of 1000's of quarters we spent on Pacman, Donky Kong, Xevious, Duck Hunter, Galaga, Asteroids, Q-Bert, Track & Field (you needed a plastic utensil to kick-ass at that one! Who remembers that lol!), Bezerk, Joust, Dragon Quest... I missed a few lol!!!
It didn't tone at all...but a another token from the same time sitting in the box with it all those years toned beautifully (the only coin I've ever truly toned myself!?) and I attached it below as well just for fun.
Also in the 80's we used to have a lot of air guitar "competitions" while wearing brutally ugly pants. I didn't understand it either lol...because my friends and I were busy dressing ourselves to look just like Crockett and Tubbs from Miami Vice!
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
@ms70 said:
No coin activity for me back in the 80's. I partied like a rock star every night that I wasn't working. If only I bought gold instead I'd be partying like a rock star NOW.
I partied AND bought gold. It was easy.
Then you didn't party like I did!
Yea, you're probably right. The 70's were the rip roarin' decade around here. Then the Lovely Mrs. Hydrant got a hold and took control of the situation. I owe it all to her. 💃 + 🏃= 👨👩👧👧
I don't remember buying one coin in the 80's. Two kids born in late 70's kept us busy and broke through the 80's. I do remember selling all my silver about a month too soon, but still made out very well. 90's were much better for coins for me. Back to business as usual finally!
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
In the 80's, I hid my coin collection from myself because I was very "distracted". Found it in 2015, talk about deja vu all over again. I am grateful for my life today. Peace Roy
Comments
Some of us OG's were once this age:
in late 70's and early 80's only third party grading was ANACS. They issued photo certificates and used "split grading" obverse and reverse were graded separately. I remember seeing tons of Morgan Dollars graded MS63/65. Not surprising as the obverse of a Morgan is a magnet for bag marks. Problem was that most of these had been sold as MS 65. A lot of these would probably certify as MS 64 today. (64 grade hadn't been defined yet). Third party grading as we know it today started in 1986 with the advent of PCGS. Tended to be VERY conservative. Had a well known dealer appraise some coins for me. He pronounced them MS 63 at best. Didn't agree and had them submitted to PCGS. ALL came back at higher grades (including one that made MS 66). So even though i'm an "old guy" it's just as true now as it was then. You have to and always did have to have (and always will) need a basic knowledge of grading.
YOU Sir, are indeed, THE walking talking embodiment, and definition of an OG.
Nothing but respect for you.
"Today the crumbs, tomorrow the
loaf. Perhaps someday the whole damn boulangerie." - fictional Jack Rackham
Welcome to the forum. You are in good company. In addition to a basic knowledge of grading you need a basic knowledge of what is going on around you. Let me just say that the first sentence in your post is incorrect.
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
@1630Boston Hey look, Rick Allen with two arms! (presumably)
Collector of randomness. Photographer at PCGS. Lover of Harry Potter.
(Part 3)
Per the previous two segments, you can see that ANACS launched its grading service in March of 1979 just a few months before the Hunt Brothers attempt to corner the silver market poured billions of dollars into coin shops, and the profits on those billions of dollars drove coin prices, and grading standards, through the roof. While we were trying to hold the grading standards as steady and consistent as possible, as we interpreted the ANA Grading Guide, "Gradeflation" (though nobody called it that back then) ran riot. The coins we were grading MS-63's were selling in the marketplace as MS-65's. The coins we were grading as MS-65's were selling in the marketplace as MS-67's. The prices in the Coin Dealer Newsletter for an MS-65 common date Morgan Dollar such as an 1881-S, which we would have graded as an MS-65, would reflect the "gradeflated" prices that those coins were bringing as MS-67's.
Certain elements of the market started loudly complaining that ANACS was undergrading coins. Basically they were saying that since the marketplace was calling the textbook MS-65 1881-S dollar an MS-67, well then ANACS should call it an MS-67 too, published grading standards be damned! They complained that it was hurting their business when they sold a coin as an MS-67 and the buyer sent it to ANACS and we only called it an MS-65. Many a fiery letter was published attacking us.
The Hunt Brothers corner collapsed in January of 1980, but by then the marketplace had developed considerable momentum. Even without the influx of money into the coin shops from the bullion trade, prices held strong and even continued to rise for a few months. The four Garrett Collection sales, starting with the first one in November of 1979 and the second one in late March of 1980, were bringing many wonderful numismatic rarities to the marketplace that had not seen the light of day for decades. Many Garrett I & II prices set records, and the coin market looked like it would continue in a tulip bulb frenzy indefinitely. Then came the Central States Numismatic Society convention in Lincoln, Nebraska right after Tax Day, 1980.
On the PNG Day that opened the show, a certain very large coin company from New England immediately began panic selling coins to raise money to cover the taxes owed on their 1979 profits and due two days earlier. Highly identifiable pieces from Garrett II were being offered at steep discounts to the high, and well-known, prices they had realized just three weeks earlier. Rather than snapping up these discounted bargains, the marketplace shuddered and everybody else tried to sell as well. Equally as important, everybody stopped buying.
In real terms, coins in general probably lost 75% of their value over the next few months. The losses were not dissimilar to those of stocks in 1929. However, there was one huge difference: a share of U.S. Steel in September of 1929, before the crash, was exactly the same share of U.S. Steel in November of 1929. It was merely worth a lot less. This was not the case with coins because of grading.
In the coin market, Gradeflation changed to Grade-DEflation. Nobody would buy coins back at the same grades that they had sold them at before the crash. In most cases the grading point drop was scandalous. Our textbook MS-65 1881-S dollar, which the Gradeflators had insisted was an MS-67 before the crash, was now suddenly an MS-63, if they were buying at all.
Meanwhile, ANACS kept on calling that textbook MS-65 coin an MS-65, and now the same people who had been screaming just a few months earlier that ANACS was undergrading were now screaming that we were overgrading, because we would not change our published grading standards to match their new, and much stricter, so-called "grading standards." The problem was exacerbated when the Coin Dealer Newsletter inexplicably did not lower their published prices to reflect the perhaps 75% loss in value. The price for an MS-65 1881-S dollar barely changed, but it was generally understood that a coin had to be a textbook MS-67 coin to merit that CDN MS-65 price, and not just a lustrous MS-63 as before.
End of Part 3
Pricing guide prices always have to be looked at with a critical eye. That was true in the 1980s and is still true today. Owners of coins and other collectibles are very reluctant to admit their "product" has dropped in value.
The contributions here of CaptHenway should be reread and treasured. Those of us who lived through it recognize parts . . .but were NOT involved in the minutiae that brings the context of the 1980s as he was.
Bravo . . . thank you for adding depth and context to the post . . . . . . .
Drunner
You're correct PerryHall. My previous post was a typo. It was the 1911 Strong D, $2.5 gold Indian , not 1909-D....
Since this thread's inception.... and re-reading it has brought a lot of good memories back. Good catch.
I often watch old videos thru the Newman Numismatic Portal and David Lisot video library. Two parts to this link. In particular was a debate on slabbing and investing vs collectors. On one side was David Hall and a couple others on the other side the curmudgeonly John Ford and a few supporters. It was the dawn of this explosion and ALOT of debate.
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/548830
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
d:
1. *
insider 2: Would love to learn what's incorrect. Please enlighten since you obviously know something I don't or don't remember
I was at the Central States Show in Lincoln, in 1980 ,but did not know that the market had crashed. A leading currency dealer had a $50 1882 Brown Back in XF. that I wanted. He had owned it since at least 1978. It was originally priced at $3100. At each show when I saw him we would talk about the note. The price slowly came down over a couple of years. At the Lincoln show I asked how much it was now. He asked what was the lowest price that he had quoted me. I said $2400. He said the price was now $2200. I said that I would flip a coin for it at $2200 or $2000. He pulled out a quarter and flipped it. I called heads. Heads it was and I bought it for $2000. I still have the note and it is now worth many,many times what I paid. I am glad that I did not know that the market had crashed because I might not have had the nerve to buy the note.
@CaptHenway and @Insider2 posted the info on the first page of the current thread -
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12579373/#Comment_12579373
Here's my summary:
Authentication and Grading Service Timeline
1972 ANACS - authentication only, paper photo certificates
1976 INSAB - authentication only, paper photo certificates
1978 INSAB - authentication and grading, paper photo certificates
1979 ANACS - authentication and grading, paper photo certificates
1985 Accugrade - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1985 Global - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1986 PCGS - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1987 NGC - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
1989 ANACS - grading and implied authentication, hard slab
I would take large briefcases full of morgan dollars , 500+, to anacs in 1984, for grading for Martin Paul. He would acquire “slots” from graders that sold them to assure one day turn around . Most would grade 64 or 65. Almost every one had been washed in chlorox and would be sold to telemarketers in mass and New Jersey. I would go twice a month from natick.
I remember in 1989 or thereabout when coins were actually graded and not averaged like today. ANACS introduced their photo certificates with both the obverse and reverse graded. Today you get a single grade of the two, averaged I guess, more or less. I liked having both sides graded as both sides actually have a grade and not very likely the same. JMO.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Perms were big in the 80's.
Lance.
the 80's was my youth but I didn't get into coins until 2015, mostly from the stacker perspective via Mike Maloney videos. My reselling experience so far has reinforced my 1oz gold coin stacker mentality over all else. When JMB starts offering 280 under spot for Palladium it is hard to win even when you call the bubble right, geez. If I just stack, I don't have to worry about spots, aging, ratings, or get cheesy offers from LCS or online vendors. I can comparison shop bullion coin offers online so I just walk in and and say I'll take your online offer and not have to stand around while they put their mitts on my collectable coin then low-ball. Who needs it?! Stacking seems to cut out the middle men who take a cut like ratings agencies, Ebay, LCS bid/ask gap, etc. Another benefit of stacking - easy to assess value in real time. Who knows what my 2009 MS69PL Double Eagle would fetch at any moment. Random year AGE and Gold Buffalo, I can comparison shop 8 places without picking up the phone. I understand I'm in a collectors forum and I'm in the minority on sticking with 1oz BU gold.
Many thanks yosclimber i missed that earlier in the thread. Always thought INS was authentication only. Got re-involved in the hobby in 1979 after filling Whitman folders for Indian and Lincoln cents as a kid in the 60's.
One tiny clarification to this summary. ANACS continued offering Authentication only during and after 1979. We did ancient and foreign coins that we did not feel qualified to grade, and some people simply do not care what their coins grade. They are called "collectors."
As to the express grading "slots" that could be bought and sold, Dwight was kind enough to clarify to me that that practice began in July of 1984, after I left. I have checked with former Office Manager Mary Thompson, and she confirmed that it never happened on our watch. All coins were processed in the order that they were received, except for certain pieces that were held back pending authentication, certain pieces where another Department (such as the Museum) needed a quick decision on, and a certain 1804 Dollar.
TD
I am simply astounded at the success of this thread. As has been previously stated by myself and others, sincere thanks to CaptHenway. His posts here are documentary quality recollections and provide insight that is just mind blowing. You sir are a gem and a real OG.
A final thanks to everyone who participated. Please feel free to add more as time goes on! In the meantime, let’s get those 70’s bumping. Please. See. Next. Thread!
"Today the crumbs, tomorrow the
loaf. Perhaps someday the whole damn boulangerie." - fictional Jack Rackham
@rodepetdinosaur asked: "Would love to learn what's incorrect. Please enlighten since you obviously know something I don't or don't remember.
This: In late 70's and early 80's only third party grading was ANACS.
There were several authentication services during this time period. Once the ANA started grading coins (they were the SECOND TPGS) the others did also. PCGS and NGC took over most of the market.
Dumbest hair ever.
Fascinating thread. Like the OP, I'm 41 (1978). Got into coins at LCS in 1988 but quickly shifted to baseball cards.
Gonna get me a $50 Octagonal someday. Some. Day.
Summer seminar 1982 I believe. Possibly 1981
Awesome! Thanks for posting
I wonder how many are still in numismatics?
ANACS was and is the FIRST Authentication Service in America, still going strong after 48 years.
Coin Grading in the 1980's:
@CaptHenway , I presume a bullseye was worth 70??
But of course!
I drank to much beer in those days, don't remember to much about it! LOL
Short shorts were money.....
I unloaded a bunch of Barber Dimes in the silver run up because their melt value was higher than their numismatic value. Got an obscene amount for junk silver. There was a line around the block at the bulion place, people both buying and selling.
As another posted mentioned, I got some of my GSA $s in 1980, the earlier batch in 1979.
In the mid 80s, not so special Unc. Morgans were marketed to death and their prices reached absurd levels. There was a market crash in the late 80s. You could find all sorts of bargains then if you had the cash and attended a large show.
I actually met Bill Noyes and Walter Breen at a Long Beach show, spoke with both of them, and bought their books there.
What amazes me the most with all major rock groups back in the 80's. Nowadays, those same bands and how much revenue they made in all their careers, they now can make in ONE YEAR! Amazing. I am aware of inflation but what a ticket goes for today to see a famous 80's group is nearly $200-$300. When in the 1980's it was $15-$20! Lol
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Was the dart thrown wearing a blindfold?
It appears that some of the basement slabbers of the time were much better dart players than ANACS
If I remember right, $15 or $20 went a lot farther then. My new truck payment was just $88 a month. And I thought that was high!
Shame this thread stopped back in June. A lot of great history here! @CaptHenway
During my early US Air Force career, I was assigned to 24 NORAD located on Malmstrom Air Force Base, Montana. Nothing much one can do there during the winter (especially being from Hawaii). This is where I honed my skills in the hobby of all hobbies. Montana is silver country and there were dealers with bags/rolls full of silver dollars tucked away in their safe deposit boxes at the local banks.
A coin/jewelry dealer befriended me after I would look at his rotating display cases and not make a purchase. He asked me what coin interest me, my answer was silver dollars. He told me to go to the book store and buy a specific book and study it before I visited his shop again. The book was The Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan and Peace Dollars by Leroy C. Van Allen and A. George Mallis.
After completing my reading assignment I visited his shop. He pulled out a box of silver dollars and said to pick out a few silver dollars that I would like to buy. I picked out 10. He reviewed my chosen coins and said that I made some good choices and all had exceptional eye appeal. Each mint state silver dollar was $30 each. I paid him and went home to identify any VAMs from my purchase.
To my surprise I picked two 1900 O/CC Morgans. I went to another coin dealer and sold it for a handsome profit. I kept going to the original coin dealer and made periodic purchases. At one point I was putting my coins up for collateral for a loan to make more purchases. I then started to submit my Morgans to ANACS for grading, then reselling them to East Coast dealers.
At one point I was enthralled with proof-like Morgans. I drove up to Deer Lodge, Montana and visited the coin shop of Dean Tavenner (later became the cofounder of the Silver Dollar Round Table). In the shop I asked if he has any proof-like Morgans for sale. He asked me if I ever handled a proof Morgan dollar. He handed me one to look at. I was in awe. Then he brought out a tray of proof-like Morgan dollars. I cherry picked 8. They were later sent to ANACS to be graded (back then there was no PL designation).
My reseller business ended after I volunteered to cross-train into a new USAF specialty code (off to training and another duty station). I had many good memories and friendships in Montana.
Here are a few Xerox images of ANACS certificates that I could find (I know I have more packed away).
One of the first coin shops I went too here in town was between the up & down escalators in the sears dept store. I remember buying mostly pennies first, but then when i got my first BU mercury dime I was real excited . If I recall was about 4 bucks. My family would go to sears , and I hit the coin shop with my older brother(who had some intrest) and then the candy section. I do rememeber when i bought that merc dime, examaning it closely for over an hour while my older brother tried on clothes.
Bid boards...
No coin activity for me back in the 80's. I partied like a rock star every night that I wasn't working. If only I bought gold instead I'd be partying like a rock star NOW.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I partied AND bought gold. It was easy.
incredible thread
Then you didn't party like I did!
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Here's a Game token from Chamelot Gaming Center from about 1984 which is now Chamelot Golfland in Anaheim California (I just googled it). I saved this in my very first original Whitman box for those plastic 2x2s...
it turned up 35 years later in one of my moving boxes!
This beautiful little token represents the 10's of 1000's of quarters we spent on Pacman, Donky Kong, Xevious, Duck Hunter, Galaga, Asteroids, Q-Bert, Track & Field (you needed a plastic utensil to kick-ass at that one! Who remembers that lol!), Bezerk, Joust, Dragon Quest... I missed a few lol!!!
It didn't tone at all...but a another token from the same time sitting in the box with it all those years toned beautifully (the only coin I've ever truly toned myself!?) and I attached it below as well just for fun.
Also in the 80's we used to have a lot of air guitar "competitions" while wearing brutally ugly pants. I didn't understand it either lol...because my friends and I were busy dressing ourselves to look just like Crockett and Tubbs from Miami Vice!
Coins are Neato!
"If it's a penny for your thoughts and you put in your two cents worth, then someone...somewhere...is making a penny." - Steven Wright
Yea, you're probably right. The 70's were the rip roarin' decade around here. Then the Lovely Mrs. Hydrant got a hold and took control of the situation. I owe it all to her. 💃 + 🏃= 👨👩👧👧
I don't remember buying one coin in the 80's. Two kids born in late 70's kept us busy and broke through the 80's. I do remember selling all my silver about a month too soon, but still made out very well. 90's were much better for coins for me. Back to business as usual finally!
bob
In the 80's, I hid my coin collection from myself because I was very "distracted". Found it in 2015, talk about deja vu all over again. I am grateful for my life today. Peace Roy
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I remember going to a few coin shows in the late 1970's and early 1980's and in the whole coin show, you wouldn't find one toned coin.
'Brilliant white' was in fashion and you could see a jar of coin dip 'at the ready' of every coin dealer's booth.
So when collectors talk of 'original blast white condition' of an older coin, you'll understand my strong skepticism of their claim.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)