Neat new 8 Reales variety addition

TwoKopeiki

Always neat to find a late die state die pair match. Top one is a recent pick-up from Katz auctions and bottom one is already in my collection in an PCGS AU50 holder. Yonaka lists this variety as R2 (very rare with 4-5 examples observed) although i think it's a bit more common since there are 3 certified at PCGS and 4 at NGC.

Abuelo

Nice!

jgenn

So the area above the assayer's initials, where the dentils transition from clearly struck to not quite there, is a die effect? I would love to see the edge at that point.

TwoKopeiki

@jgenn said:
So the area above the assayer's initials, where the dentils transition from clearly struck to not quite there, is a die effect? I would love to see the edge at that point.

It's a pretty deteriorated die and i'm sure the die clash didn't help things. I'll post the edge and measurements of the Katz coin (top) once i receive it.

Boosibri

Very cool!

realeswatcher

Interesting matched pair, Roman. BTW, The new piece is higher grade when judging strictly by wear, I'd say.

Comment, though... I don't know if that necessarily has to be an overassayer. Looking at that area specifically and the decay of the die's detail around the legend in general, that might just be shmugm masquerading as underlying lettering. If we're considering what presents as a vertical stem as the left side of "H" of an underneath "TH", isn't that too squooshed up the dot ornament to be plausible??

Do you have any images of what can be confirmed as an earlier state of that same die??

TwoKopeiki

Thanks guys.> @realeswatcher said:

Interesting matched pair, Roman. BTW, The new piece is higher grade when judging strictly by wear, I'd say.

Thanks and I agree in terms of the grade. Hoping also for some luster in-hand.

Comment, though... I don't know if that necessarily has to be an overassayer. Looking at that area specifically and the decay of the die's detail around the legend in general, that might just be shmugm masquerading as underlying lettering. If we're considering what presents as a vertical stem as the left side of "H" of an underneath "TH", isn't that too squooshed up the dot ornament to be plausible??

I believe the dot was also moved. If you look at the top example to the left of the dot you see what could have been the original dot placement and now looks like a little bump. The remains of the "T" on my existing example is pretty clear, IMO. Very unlikely to be a die scratch / rust due to the angle.

Do you have any images of what can be confirmed as an earlier state of that same die??

Not yet, but I'm sure I'll find it

TwoKopeiki

@realeswatcher said:

BTW, great to see you posting over here, Brian! Hope to see more discussions / comments in the weeks to come. What do you think about this one? https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1035273/whats-the-date-on-this-mexico-8-reales#latest

TwoKopeiki

Received the coin and pretty happy with it. Lots of luster in-hand and just a small wipe in front of the bust that should not preclude it from grading AU58 with our host. The edge was interesting. While there are overlaps present, one of the edging dies seems to have also been pretty damaged. You can cleanly see the transitions from the undamaged to damaged edging die in this coin, which I found fascinating enough to want to crack my existing AU50 example out to see if the edge displays the same characteristics. Which i did. And saw that both dies were undamaged in the example I already had. The weight of both coins was within .02g of each other at 26.95 and 26.93, respectively. Apologies for crappy pictures (and lack of SG measurement) as I'm in the process of renovating my home office and have most of my equipment packed away.

Ex PCGS AU50:

New addition from Katz

TwoKopeiki

A few raw shots before sending it to the slab factory.

bidask

Congratulations let us know how is grades

Im guessing a 58-61

Boosibri

I have found PCGS to be extremely tight these days. Hope the grades make sense when you get it back.

TwoKopeiki

Thanks - will do. @Boosibri I also noticed PCGS's recent change. Hope it's just a phase.

bidask

@TwoKopeiki said:
Thanks - will do. @Boosibri I also noticed PCGS's recent change. Hope it's just a phase.

Don’t we we want them to be generally tight in their standards ?

Boosibri

@bidask said:

@TwoKopeiki said:
Thanks - will do. @Boosibri I also noticed PCGS's recent change. Hope it's just a phase.

Don’t we we want them to be generally tight in their standards ?

I mean body bagging reasonable coins and putting 65’s in 63 holders. I think we want consistent standards.

TwoKopeiki

@Boosibri said:

@bidask said:

@TwoKopeiki said:
Thanks - will do. @Boosibri I also noticed PCGS's recent change. Hope it's just a phase.

... I think we want consistent standards.

This.

PCGS was already stricter on certain criteria (hairlines, luster). It's the consistency with which they did it that made it my preferred TPG. I like the fact that I can take 2 of my recently graded NGC coins, crack them out, and pretty accurately guess the PCGS grades they would get. And I would be happy, even with one of them taking a 2 grade hit, because it would be consistent with other coins with the same grades in my collection.

bidask

And I would be happy, even with one of them taking a 2 grade hit, because it would be consistent with other coins with the same grades in my collection.

Gee whiz TwoKopeiki if your willing to take a 2 point hit I hope you did not pay
much higher than what PCGS ultimately
grades the coin .

PCGS is my preference as well.

I have a bunch of NGC coins ( mostly cap and rays 8 reales ) that have not crossed .... and I’m on the fence whether to keep them in NGC plastic or just be happy with whatever PCGS grade is given .

However there are grades given by PCGS on coins I have not agreed with too .

TwoKopeiki

@bidask said:

Gee whiz TwoKopeiki if your willing to take a 2 point hit I hope you did not pay
much higher than what PCGS ultimately
grades the coin .

Thankfully in this case the hit would be 61 to 58, which is what it should have been in the first place at PCGS. I buy most of my coins raw and in this case I paid what I consider a good price for a nice un-messed with AU.

I have had NGC MS63's go down as much as 61 at PCGS and I've lost money on those when It came time to upgrade, but I'm in it for the long run. I'm also considering not selling my duplicates / upgrades anymore if they fit all of my conditions for originality, eye-appeal and scarcity.

johnny9434

Nice reales I like

jayPem

Very cool!
I've always loved late die states.
I get it that some collectors stay away from the eye appeal "issues" these coins come with..to me it's just the history, the story of minting copper silver and gold into coinage and putting it to work.

TwoKopeiki

Surprisingly PCGS bodybagged as cleaned a couple of months ago. Sent it to NGC and they just put it in the correctly attributed (and graded, IMO) MS61 holder.

bidask

good for you to resend to NGC

Boosibri

Are you going to now try and cross?

TwoKopeiki

@Boosibri said:
Are you going to now try and cross?

Maybe down the road as I do want all my primary set pieces in the same holders. Probably when our hosts have another crossover special next year.

Boosibri

@TwoKopeiki said:

@Boosibri said:
Are you going to now try and cross?

Maybe down the road as I do want all my primary set pieces in the same holders. Probably when our hosts have another crossover special next year.

Good call. I find that for some tougher to grade coins, getting it in NGC plastic first and crossing over offers a better chance to straight cross than raw grading.

TwoKopeiki

@Boosibri said:

@TwoKopeiki said:

@Boosibri said:
Are you going to now try and cross?

Maybe down the road as I do want all my primary set pieces in the same holders. Probably when our hosts have another crossover special next year.

Good call. I find that for some tougher to grade coins, getting it in NGC plastic first and crossing over offers a better chance to straight cross than raw grading.

That has been my experience, as well.

brg5658

@bidask said:

@TwoKopeiki said:
Thanks - will do. @Boosibri I also noticed PCGS's recent change. Hope it's just a phase.

Don’t we we want them to be generally tight in their standards ?

By definition, a standard should be consistent. Neither tight nor loose - but replicable if resubmitted.

brg5658

@TwoKopeiki said:
Surprisingly PCGS bodybagged as cleaned a couple of months ago. Sent it to NGC and they just put it in the correctly attributed (and graded, IMO) MS61 holder.

So why is PCGS a religious experience for so many, when stuff like this happens? They are the “best” but they need NGC to do all the work for them before they’ll slab it? Weird.

TwoKopeiki

@brg5658 said:

@TwoKopeiki said:
Surprisingly PCGS bodybagged as cleaned a couple of months ago. Sent it to NGC and they just put it in the correctly attributed (and graded, IMO) MS61 holder.

So why is PCGS a religious experience for so many, when stuff like this happens? They are the “best” but they need NGC to do all the work for them before they’ll slab it? Weird.

With the whole grading game, I noticed that more often than not the coin will end up in the holder it's ultimately suppose to. It might take a few tries and you may no longer be the owner when it does, but it will. The additional problem is that as collectors we also have a TPG preference.

brg5658

@TwoKopeiki said:

@brg5658 said:

@TwoKopeiki said:
Surprisingly PCGS bodybagged as cleaned a couple of months ago. Sent it to NGC and they just put it in the correctly attributed (and graded, IMO) MS61 holder.

So why is PCGS a religious experience for so many, when stuff like this happens? They are the “best” but they need NGC to do all the work for them before they’ll slab it? Weird.

With the whole grading game, I noticed that more often than not the coin will end up in the holder it's ultimately suppose to. It might take a few tries and you may no longer be the owner when it does, but it will. The additional problem is that as collectors we also have a TPG preference.

You can have any preference you’d like, but it doesn’t speak too highly of that “preferred” TPG if they can’t figure out for themselves whether a coin is problem free or not.

I’m glad NGC got it right and put it in an MS61 holder. It’s a very nice coin.

Boosibri

@brg5658 said:

@TwoKopeiki said:

@brg5658 said:

@TwoKopeiki said:
Surprisingly PCGS bodybagged as cleaned a couple of months ago. Sent it to NGC and they just put it in the correctly attributed (and graded, IMO) MS61 holder.

So why is PCGS a religious experience for so many, when stuff like this happens? They are the “best” but they need NGC to do all the work for them before they’ll slab it? Weird.

With the whole grading game, I noticed that more often than not the coin will end up in the holder it's ultimately suppose to. It might take a few tries and you may no longer be the owner when it does, but it will. The additional problem is that as collectors we also have a TPG preference.

You can have any preference you’d like, but it doesn’t speak too highly of that “preferred” TPG if they can’t figure out for themselves whether a coin is problem free or not.

I’m glad NGC got it right and put it in an MS61 holder. It’s a very nice coin.

Is it possible that the coin falls somewhere on the spectrum of cleaned and gradeable, and if gradeable it is an MS61? If submitted the NGC 10x, it would be graded 61 7 of 10 times and cleaned 3 of 10 times. Perhaps PCGS would grade it 50/50. Is either right or wrong?

brg5658

@Boosibri said:

@brg5658 said:

@TwoKopeiki said:

@brg5658 said:

@TwoKopeiki said:
Surprisingly PCGS bodybagged as cleaned a couple of months ago. Sent it to NGC and they just put it in the correctly attributed (and graded, IMO) MS61 holder.

So why is PCGS a religious experience for so many, when stuff like this happens? They are the “best” but they need NGC to do all the work for them before they’ll slab it? Weird.

With the whole grading game, I noticed that more often than not the coin will end up in the holder it's ultimately suppose to. It might take a few tries and you may no longer be the owner when it does, but it will. The additional problem is that as collectors we also have a TPG preference.

You can have any preference you’d like, but it doesn’t speak too highly of that “preferred” TPG if they can’t figure out for themselves whether a coin is problem free or not.

I’m glad NGC got it right and put it in an MS61 holder. It’s a very nice coin.

Is it possible that the coin falls somewhere on the spectrum of cleaned and gradeable, and if gradeable it is an MS61? If submitted the NGC 10x, it would be graded 61 7 of 10 times and cleaned 3 of 10 times. Perhaps PCGS would grade it 50/50. Is either right or wrong?

Possible, yes. But your previous comments were that you had experienced that PCGS was more likely to sometimes straight grade a coin if it was already in an NGC holder. Which brings us back to the question of why? If they can’t come to the same decision on a raw coin when it isn’t in a holder is odd.

asheland

Nice find!