Heads up on Apmex (and probably a few others)
jmski52
Posts: 22,849 ✭✭✭✭✭
This should probably apply to all bullion dealers at this point. We know that they all have shipping delays, but this is the same sort of thing that has happened before - right before they stop delivering and go into bankruptcy, i.e., Tulving, NW Territorial Mint.
Here's my experience. I've had an order in place for awhile - some coins on "pre-order" with a ship date of 3/20. Specifically, some Queens Beasts. Pre-order means that you should get the coins when they arrive at the dealer, right?
Now, they all show "sold out" even though my pre-order was placed in early March. I've messaged them 3 days running and am getting a runaround, with zero followup on their part.
Heads-up.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I knew it would happen.
I knew it would happen.
8
Comments
Interesting, thanks
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
You already paid? what would possess you to do that?
this is not a good look for you , you are always saying to protect yourself and you pre order bullion?
You can't lecture people about these thing then be all FOMO over some random trinkets
BE BETTER !
seriously maybe I have just never felt the FOMO . I got a flyer from the US mint the other day about basketball coins , I saw they were asking $44 for a clad half
, I would repeatedly smash myself in the head with a hammer before I sent them my money
Ive heard there is no counter-party risk with PMs?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Ive heard there is no counter-party risk with PMs?
Not if you pay attention, which is exactly why I posted this heads-up. I have no concerns about my order being fulfilled because the situation hasn't gone full course, yet.
It's just a heads-up. Same as the heads-up that's been going on with the banking system for years. The difference is that Apmex isn't the darling of tptb.
I knew it would happen.
May not just be an Apmex issue, there may be a delay in the supply chain.
ou already paid? what would possess you to do that?
this is not a good look for you , you are always saying to protect yourself and you pre order bullion?
You can't lecture people about these thing then be all FOMO over some random trinkets
BE BETTER !
lol, tell me where you can order any bullion without pre-paying.
what's "FOMO"? try to excuse my basic ignorance.
yup, these random trinkets are just part of a collection, not really on the speculating side although they weren't particularly high premium.
baseball, moon landing and basketball coins don't stack very well with my other stuff, so I pass on them.
I knew it would happen.
there's always counter-party risk when a promise is traded for money. Doesn't matter what the promise is for.
Counter party risk involves trust in your trading partner.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
to the OP, sounds like the dealer is still awaiting delivery from the supplier. Don't forget he's also depending on a promise to be fulfilled.
What brought down dealers like Tulving was their belief that they had access to unlimited supply. We all know that physical supply has its limits.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
May not just be an Apmex issue, there may be a delay in the supply chain.
to the OP, sounds like the dealer is still awaiting delivery from the supplier. Don't forget he's also depending on a promise to be fulfilled.
Most likely, it IS a snag in the supply chain. What's inexcusable is the runaround and unwillingness to provide the facts. That's a yellow flag.
I knew it would happen.
a pre-order with a ship date is a promise that is fully dependent on the seller getting inventory when his supplier promised it to him. A broken promise anywhere in the supply chain breaks all promises based on it.
Anyone buying "Pre-order" should understand the risk of delay. I would never "pre-order" again. Did it once on ebay and learned my lesson.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Fomo is fear of missing out , there is no legitimate logic to pre paying for queens beast coins. You speculate on the idea that you might lock in at a lower price is all.
you have locked yourself in a box of your own art !
There is no proof that any of that stuff will be anything but melt value .
Its the story of the tortise and the hare all over again , whatever you spend on that stuff over an equal amount of generic gold should be spent on lottery tickets its a better return
Ive not looked into it too far, but do remember that all cargo/freight/airlines routes from UK have been closed off for a few weeks now.
Part of your delay?
They may have marked them as sold out because they are sold out of their allotted pieces and dont want to run the risk of running further in the red on them.
As someone who sells pms dont you agree all of this random dreck is melt value 3 years out ?
These series never go anywhere the underlying metal doesnt take them
You speculate on the idea that you might lock in at a lower price is all.
you have locked yourself in a box of your own art !
I preordered for convenience. It's a collection that is intentionally-related to bullion pricing, but not really a bullion speculation.
I do that with larger quantities.
I collect for enjoyment, and I do enjoy the Queens Beasts series that I collect. Same as with Large Cents, and even ancients or foreign stuff. Yeah, I like those Britannia & Germania issues too.
I knew it would happen.
What does a business going under have to do with PMs and inherent counter party risk?
Why must some always throw an irrelevant turd in the punch bowl?
There is nothing convienent about pre ordering. Not in coins or iphones or the newest video game .
its fine for things that are actually useful though , if you use a lot of something you would certainly pre order it .
You did it because you thought pms were going up and you were going to buy it anyway
I’d definitely wouldn’t pre-order with check/money order in this environment, but I wouldn’t hesitate to using a credit card if I was willing to pay the additional costs.
I do believe some, well very few of the modern market pieces will have future premium. No one in the 90's thought their silver pandas would be worth hundreds of dollars either though. So why not add some enjoyment to stacking, just to be mindful that you may not always or ever recoup the premiums paid for "cool bullion".
There is nothing convienent about pre ordering.
You're wrong. For some of us who might forget to do it, convenience means not forgetting.
You did it because you thought pms were going up and you were going to buy it anyway
Again, not true. I don't try to time my purchases. Not like I used to do. Especially now with the markets in the imaginary land of free money to support all of the various constituencies.
I stick to what I think are the fundamentals. Your mileage may vary. The only time I might be influenced by the market pricing is when the metals are spiking, which is a good time not to buy.
I knew it would happen.
I think some may have premiums but you have to minus off the initial priemiums from the duds before you get to say you are ahead
Its completely relevant DavidK. And as derryb has pointed out there is always counter-party risk. My comment was directed to the OP who has on numerous occasions stated the PMs have no counter-party risk. Ive always said there is and derryb agrees. There is another MUCH LARGER counter-party risk that most PMers dismiss, but thats a topic for another thread.
Are you stating that Apmex is going under?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Do they answer their phone?
Tulving was a tiny operation with a history of bankruptcy, as well as other questionable activity. I think you're OK with Apmex.
Would you be a dear and "tiktok" that for us if it ever happens?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
i can't guarantee how long i'll be able to proceed
are you kidding me?
No way you forget to buy stuff like this . You have a spreadsheet
I'm saying If you like it you like it , fine then wait three years and buy it at melt . It will be available. If for some reason certain ones are not melt then buy 2 of the others instead.
Think of it as a zen like approach to collecting as opposed to the OCD approach, 20 years out no one is going to care if all the holes are filled . That type of coin collecting is long over.
No one completes a set anymore and even if they do they only get paid for the keys and the rest are melt. Its too much effort for too little return..
In any case if you think the metals market is rigged then the best hedge against that is to not participate , second best hedge is to buy the tightest spread , the absolute worst is to be long the stuff whose value is mostly imaginary. Condition rarity , special surfaces or limited editions privy marks whatall are only profitable for the people that make them , they control the supply its a perfect corner on the market and the walk is all straight uphill for everyone else.
My comment was directed to the OP who has on numerous occasions stated the PMs have no counter-party risk. Ive always said there is and derryb agrees. There is another MUCH LARGER counter-party risk that most PMers dismiss, but thats a topic for another thread.
PMs have no counter-party risk once you have them in-hand. There, is that better?
Are you stating that Apmex is going under?
No, I said that they weren't providing any information on the order status and that to me, is a yellow flag.
Do they answer their phone?
My conversations with them were online. Three days running.
@bronco2078 - That type of collecting isn't over, but granted - it's phasing out. My approach is half zen-like. But never lowball scrap-metal scavenging. Talk about too much effort for too little return, that's it. But I enjoy your commentary.
Postscript - Got my shipping notification this afternoon. Pretty interesting that it took this much hell-raising to get their attention. On "sold out" items that were pre-sold weeks ago. My complaint is mainly about their secretive (or dumbstruck, I can't tell which) approach to customer service.
The yellow flag is still up, in my opinion.
I knew it would happen.
Online it looks like their sell price is over $1800! So what's going on with these monumental buy sell spreads?
what's going on with these monumental buy sell spreads?
My opinion is that it's mostly because of wide swings in market volatility. The dealers aren't sticking their necks out for nobody. (At least, the smart ones aren't.)
I knew it would happen.
I placed my order in Feb. with a estimated shipping date of 3/8. The item clearly indicated pre sale. I received my beasts on 3/6. No issues here. "Royal Mint" could be having silver supply problems, just like the US Mint.
to be clear I said there was counter party risk with any transaction where payment is exchanged for a promise. This includes "pre-ordering" PMs. PMs in themselves hold no counterparty risk, they are "as good as gold" in the hands of who holds them. Holding PM related stock certificates or ETFs backed by gold involve some counterparty risk because in reality they are a promise for future payment.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
The future of APMEX depends on the profitability in selling their products. Extremely huge current premiums (markup) are working in their favor for success. Supply chain interruptions are a bump in the road. They see an opportunity for greater profit and are, at some risk, not safely sitting on the sidelines while awaiting inventory.
Failure of such outfits is normally due to their depending on future sales to buy inventory they've already sold. I would assume that APMEX is not running a Ponzi scheme and is fully prepared to refund any purchase that will not see delivery. Their inability to do so would mean that they already spent that money on orders from their suppliers.
Tulving may have been a tiny operation but they sold boatloads of PMs. Their premiums were small. They obviously pumped all of their income into future purchases (and possibly some fraud) and were unable to make refunds when it was time to do so. I'm not sure of the timing, but it could have well involved a period of tight supply in PMs such as we are witnessing today.
Any retailer, including PMs, should think twice about selling inventory they don't hold, especially in times of known supply chain breakdowns. I get it with APMEX and their "pre-order," they want to keep the money flowing and they don't want a warehouse full of monster boxes when their orders finally arrive. However, such retailers should exercise extreme caution; even if they are fully capable of making refunds when they can't deliver, it will cost them customers and reputation.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I think apmex is the best of the online bullion dealers so if they go down the rest are in trouble
I gave up on the Big A for now. Flipping toilet paper which has become MUCH more profitable.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Yup....you still dont recognize the real counterparty risk.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
PMs in themselves hold no counterparty risk, they are "as good as gold" in the hands of who holds them.
You dont recognize the real counterparty risk either.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Well, I guess I could lose a bar or two.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
to be fair the grim reaper is a counterparty risk in every trade
There's risk in holding any asset, it's not the same thing as counterparty risk.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
A few definitions:
Counterparty risk. A counterparty risk, also known as a default risk or counterparty credit risk (CCR), is a risk that a counterparty will not pay as obligated on a bond, derivative, insurance policy, or other contract.
Varying degrees of counterparty risk exists in all financial transactions. Counterparty risk is also known as default risk. Default risk is the chance that companies or individuals will be unable to make the required payments on their debt obligations. Lenders and investors are exposed to default risk in virtually all forms of credit extensions. Counterparty risk is a risk that both parties should consider when evaluating a contract.
Counterparty risk is the risk of one or more parties in a financial transaction defaulting on or otherwise failing to meet their obligations on that trade. Counterparty risk is especially relevant to derivatives markets, where notional values can far exceed the size of the underlying securities.
Therefore, if I hold a gold or silver coin in my hot little hand, there is ZERO counterparty risk. There is no default risk. There is no credit risk. There is no contract. There is no obligation.
However, when I own a bond or a stock, especially when held by a financial entity for me in street name, there is abundant counterparty risk.
We report, you decide.
I knew it would happen.
Lol.
Just when i thought you had it figured out.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Those aren't my definitions. I found them on the internet, so they must be true.
You seem to be having trouble with the concept of "counterparty".
Gold in-hand has no counterparty. If you believe that it does, please elucidate us. Who is this mysterious counterparty?
I knew it would happen.
Gold is worthless without a counterparty. Think about it.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I've got gold, it sits in my safe. Since there is no counterparty, there is no counterparty risk.
Jmski wants my gold. I sell it to him. He gives me payment. I give him the gold. No counterparty risk.
Sometimes things are just that simple.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Lol...still dont see it
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Well, as long as I work on the other side of the counter, it's 100% risk on.
Hope I never see things the way you see them.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I assume you are referring to someone who is willing to buy your gold as being a counterparty.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
not all counterparties involve risk.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey