I believe Ali knew exactly what he was doing against Foreman. He wanted Foreman to get exhausted. Surely Ali knew that if he drained the battery, the car would die. He set Foreman up, and it worked brilliantly.
@doubledragon said:
I believe Ali knew exactly what he was doing against Foreman. He wanted Foreman to get exhausted. Surely Ali knew that if he drained the battery, the car would die. He set Foreman up, and it worked brilliantly.
I have watched a lot of Ali's fights. In the early years he could keep up a very fast pace and could outbox everyone while not getting hit much.
An older wiser Ali realized he couldn't keep up that pace and would score a lot of punches and then rest awhile, usually coming on strong near the ends of rounds.
He was a super smart fighter. George was not, he kept whaling away at Ali and should have paced himself.
BTW Ali was way ahead on all the scorecards when he knocked George out.
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@coolstanley said:
Its a shame there never was a Ali/Foreman II.
That is definately a shame, and I don't understand why George didn't seek a rematch. If Foreman would have made some adjustments from the first fight, he might have been able to beat Ali the second time around. It's kind of like Marvin Hagler. I don't understand why Hagler never seeked a rematch against Leonard.
@coolstanley said:
Its a shame there never was a Ali/Foreman II.
That is definately a shame, and I don't understand why George didn't seek a rematch. If Foreman would have made some adjustments from the first fight, he might have been able to beat Ali the second time around. It's kind of like Marvin Hagler. I don't understand why Hagler never seeked a rematch against Leonard.
Leonard probably didnt agree to a rematch against Hagler. Just like he refused to fight Duran for a 3rd fight until Duran got old.
@coolstanley said:
Its a shame there never was a Ali/Foreman II.
I thought this was interesting;
Reflecting on the fight, George Foreman later said: "I thought Ali was just one more knockout victim until, about the seventh round, I hit him hard to the jaw and he held me and whispered in my ear: 'That all you got, George?' I realized that this ain't what I thought it was."
I'm pretty sure Ali wasn't too interested in any more fights with George. He had one last fight with Frazier and Norton. He didn't really fight anyone of Foreman's ability, although he did beat Earnie Shavers, that would have been a good time to retire.
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Joe Louis in his prime was supposed to be a pretty special fighter. Power and speed and could take punishment and keep coming.
Sonny Liston was a total bruiser. If he wasn’t all mobbed up and fought on the level, he also had incredible punching power and perhaps would be better remembered.
I like Ali as the GOAT as well.
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@coolstanley said:
Its a shame there never was a Ali/Foreman II.
It would have ended the same.
I don't know about that. Ali was getting old and Foreman would have fought a smarter fight. Ali needed money at the time and another fight with George would have been a big payday. Ali had other guys who were less dangerous and still get him a good payday.
I like Ali as the GOAT, but sooner or later a young guy is going to beat you. Spinks beat Ali and he wasn't a very good boxer.
What I would have loved to see was Ali from March 1967 until October 1970. Joe Frazier was the only great boxer during that time. Jimmy Ellis, Ernie Terrell, Quarry, Chuvallo? Ali beat all these guys and they were the best of the rest 1967-70.
Ali would have beaten Fraizer during that time, he nearly beat him after the almost 4 year layoff. Ali, of course beat smokin' Joe 2 out of 3 times.
Ali fought 5 times in 1966, so we're looking at almost 20 more wins for Ali, IF he could have found someone to fight.
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Some younger folks may look at his fight record on Wiki, and ask why it took him so long in the fight to knock out those tomato cans? Maybe Ali wasn't all that good?
Well, a number of Ali's fights back then were televised for free, before the advent of cable pay TV, and Ali intentionally played with the fighter for a number of rounds before deciding to knock him out. It made for better air time and getting more commercials in if the fight lasted longer, and Ali was cognizant of all that. Every fight fan knew that back then.
So if he so desired, Ali could have easily had a considerable amount of first round knockouts on his record.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
Joe Louis in his prime was supposed to be a pretty special fighter. Power and speed and could take punishment and keep coming.
Sonny Liston was a total bruiser. If he wasn’t all mobbed up and fought on the level, he also had incredible punching power and perhaps would be better remembered.
I like Ali as the GOAT as well.
Oh yeah, Louis vs Ali would have been one heck of a fight, just check out Joe Louis's statement on the cover of "The Ring" magazine back in 1967 about Cassius Clay. I don't know who would've won, but we all know who I would have been rooting for.
It should be noted that Joe Louis still holds the record for the most heavyweight title defenses, he defended his title 25 times, and he was the heavyweight champion from 1937-1949, a ridiculous streak of domination, therefore, Joe must be a candidate for the GOAT status, and in fact, I proclaim to the world, that Joe Louis is the GOAT, and would have indeed clobbered Clay!!
@doubledragon said:
It should be noted that Joe Louis still holds the record for the most heavyweight title defenses, he defended his title 25 times, and he was the heavyweight champion from 1937-1949, a ridiculous streak of domination, therefore, Joe must be a candidate for the GOAT status, and in fact, I proclaim to the world, that Joe Louis is the GOAT, and would have indeed clobbered Clay!!
Two words; Billy Conn.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@doubledragon said:
It should be noted that Joe Louis still holds the record for the most heavyweight title defenses, he defended his title 25 times, and he was the heavyweight champion from 1937-1949, a ridiculous streak of domination, therefore, Joe must be a candidate for the GOAT status, and in fact, I proclaim to the world, that Joe Louis is the GOAT, and would have indeed clobbered Clay!!
@stevek said:
Another thing when analyzing Ali as the GOAT.
Some younger folks may look at his fight record on Wiki, and ask why it took him so long in the fight to knock out those tomato cans? Maybe Ali wasn't all that good?
Well, a number of Ali's fights back then were televised for free, before the advent of cable pay TV, and Ali intentionally played with the fighter for a number of rounds before deciding to knock him out. It made for better air time and getting more commercials in if the fight lasted longer, and Ali was cognizant of all that. Every fight fan knew that back then.
So if he so desired, Ali could have easily had a considerable amount of first round knockouts on his record.
Ali wasn't a slugger, he was a boxer. He was never going to be a first round KO guy.
Look at his first 29 fights, only 5 guys were able to go 10 rounds with Ali. In 12 of those fights opponents didn't make it to round 5.
The only guys who went the 15 round distance were Ernie Terrell and George Chuvalo, Ernie was a World Champion and George was almost that good.
Every one of his fights were KO's TKO's or Unanimous Decisions.
I'm certainly not knocking Joe Louis, he might be right behind Ali in my opinion in the GOAT debate............and he was a Joe! ;-)
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@doubledragon said:
It should be noted that Joe Louis still holds the record for the most heavyweight title defenses, he defended his title 25 times, and he was the heavyweight champion from 1937-1949, a ridiculous streak of domination, therefore, Joe must be a candidate for the GOAT status, and in fact, I proclaim to the world, that Joe Louis is the GOAT, and would have indeed clobbered Clay!!
Two words; Billy Conn.
All great champions have an off night!!
True.
This discussion is kind of bittersweet, it reminds me of talking about this with my Dad, who did some boxing as a young man.
He didn't care for Ali_ AT ALL_, but he thought that if a light heavyweight like Conn could outbox Louis (until foolishly going for the KO) a guy like Ali, who was bigger faster and stronger would not make that mistake.
It was said that Louis dropped his left hand after throwing a jab, if he did this against Ali, he wouldn't have had a chance. Of course if Ali did too much clowning Louis would have dropped him like a bad habit.
There's no way of knowing, but Ali, before his exile from boxing, was in my mind the closest thing to the "perfect" boxer ever.
Conservatively Ali missed 16 fights because of his refusal to be drafted. That would have added to his totals immensely.
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@doubledragon said:
I'm biased when it comes to Joe Louis, so of course I'm going to say Joe Louis is going to win, but what about Ali vs Marciano, the superfight.
Ali would knock out Marciano in almost any round he wanted.
All my comparisons are prime for prime, which is the only way in my opinion that boxers of different eras should be compared for hypothetical boxing matches.
Even Marciano knocking out Joe Louis and anyone boasting that Marciano was therefore better, isn't being fair of course because Louis was well past his prime when that occurred. Louis was an over-the-hill 37 years old at the time. In fact, Louis was actually retired, but came out of retirement to fight Marciano only because he owed the IRS a lot of money.
@doubledragon said:
I'm biased when it comes to Joe Louis, so of course I'm going to say Joe Louis is going to win, but what about Ali vs Marciano, the superfight.
Ali would knock out Marciano in almost any round he wanted.
All my comparisons are prime for prime, which is the only way in my opinion that boxers of different eras should be compared for hypothetical boxing matches.
Even Marciano knocking out Joe Louis and anyone boasting that Marciano was therefore better, isn't being fair of course because Louis was well past his prime when that occurred. Louis was an over-the-hill 37 years old at the time. In fact, Louis was actually retired, but came out of retirement to fight Marciano only because he owed the IRS a lot of money.
Marciano was very tough, I would predict a later round KO for Ali. Certainly would dominate the fight if it went the distance.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@doubledragon said:
I'm biased when it comes to Joe Louis, so of course I'm going to say Joe Louis is going to win, but what about Ali vs Marciano, the superfight.
Ali would knock out Marciano in almost any round he wanted.
All my comparisons are prime for prime, which is the only way in my opinion that boxers of different eras should be compared for hypothetical boxing matches.
Even Marciano knocking out Joe Louis and anyone boasting that Marciano was therefore better, isn't being fair of course because Louis was well past his prime when that occurred. Louis was an over-the-hill 37 years old at the time. In fact, Louis was actually retired, but came out of retirement to fight Marciano only because he owed the IRS a lot of money.
Marciano was very tough, I would predict a later round KO for Ali. Certainly would dominate the fight if it went the distance.
I'm not saying that Marciano wasn't a great fighter because of course he obviously was. But frankly, Marciano at around 185 pounds, and the films i've watched of him including the Louis fight, Rocky didn't exactly seem "fast" out there.
I think a number of heavyweights who came along in later years would have beaten him without too much problem. I just can't see him beating Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, etc.
Comments
I believe Ali knew exactly what he was doing against Foreman. He wanted Foreman to get exhausted. Surely Ali knew that if he drained the battery, the car would die. He set Foreman up, and it worked brilliantly.
I have watched a lot of Ali's fights. In the early years he could keep up a very fast pace and could outbox everyone while not getting hit much.
An older wiser Ali realized he couldn't keep up that pace and would score a lot of punches and then rest awhile, usually coming on strong near the ends of rounds.
He was a super smart fighter. George was not, he kept whaling away at Ali and should have paced himself.
BTW Ali was way ahead on all the scorecards when he knocked George out.
Its a shame there never was a Ali/Foreman II.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
That is definately a shame, and I don't understand why George didn't seek a rematch. If Foreman would have made some adjustments from the first fight, he might have been able to beat Ali the second time around. It's kind of like Marvin Hagler. I don't understand why Hagler never seeked a rematch against Leonard.
Leonard probably didnt agree to a rematch against Hagler. Just like he refused to fight Duran for a 3rd fight until Duran got old.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
I thought this was interesting;
Reflecting on the fight, George Foreman later said: "I thought Ali was just one more knockout victim until, about the seventh round, I hit him hard to the jaw and he held me and whispered in my ear: 'That all you got, George?' I realized that this ain't what I thought it was."
I'm pretty sure Ali wasn't too interested in any more fights with George. He had one last fight with Frazier and Norton. He didn't really fight anyone of Foreman's ability, although he did beat Earnie Shavers, that would have been a good time to retire.
It would have ended the same.
Joe Louis in his prime was supposed to be a pretty special fighter. Power and speed and could take punishment and keep coming.
Sonny Liston was a total bruiser. If he wasn’t all mobbed up and fought on the level, he also had incredible punching power and perhaps would be better remembered.
I like Ali as the GOAT as well.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I don't know about that. Ali was getting old and Foreman would have fought a smarter fight. Ali needed money at the time and another fight with George would have been a big payday. Ali had other guys who were less dangerous and still get him a good payday.
I like Ali as the GOAT, but sooner or later a young guy is going to beat you. Spinks beat Ali and he wasn't a very good boxer.
What I would have loved to see was Ali from March 1967 until October 1970. Joe Frazier was the only great boxer during that time. Jimmy Ellis, Ernie Terrell, Quarry, Chuvallo? Ali beat all these guys and they were the best of the rest 1967-70.
Ali would have beaten Fraizer during that time, he nearly beat him after the almost 4 year layoff. Ali, of course beat smokin' Joe 2 out of 3 times.
Ali fought 5 times in 1966, so we're looking at almost 20 more wins for Ali, IF he could have found someone to fight.
Another thing when analyzing Ali as the GOAT.
Some younger folks may look at his fight record on Wiki, and ask why it took him so long in the fight to knock out those tomato cans? Maybe Ali wasn't all that good?
Well, a number of Ali's fights back then were televised for free, before the advent of cable pay TV, and Ali intentionally played with the fighter for a number of rounds before deciding to knock him out. It made for better air time and getting more commercials in if the fight lasted longer, and Ali was cognizant of all that. Every fight fan knew that back then.
So if he so desired, Ali could have easily had a considerable amount of first round knockouts on his record.
Oh yeah, Louis vs Ali would have been one heck of a fight, just check out Joe Louis's statement on the cover of "The Ring" magazine back in 1967 about Cassius Clay. I don't know who would've won, but we all know who I would have been rooting for.
It should be noted that Joe Louis still holds the record for the most heavyweight title defenses, he defended his title 25 times, and he was the heavyweight champion from 1937-1949, a ridiculous streak of domination, therefore, Joe must be a candidate for the GOAT status, and in fact, I proclaim to the world, that Joe Louis is the GOAT, and would have indeed clobbered Clay!!
Two words; Billy Conn.
All great champions have an off night!!
Ali wasn't a slugger, he was a boxer. He was never going to be a first round KO guy.
Look at his first 29 fights, only 5 guys were able to go 10 rounds with Ali. In 12 of those fights opponents didn't make it to round 5.
The only guys who went the 15 round distance were Ernie Terrell and George Chuvalo, Ernie was a World Champion and George was almost that good.
Every one of his fights were KO's TKO's or Unanimous Decisions.
I'm certainly not knocking Joe Louis, he might be right behind Ali in my opinion in the GOAT debate............and he was a Joe! ;-)
True.
This discussion is kind of bittersweet, it reminds me of talking about this with my Dad, who did some boxing as a young man.
He didn't care for Ali_ AT ALL_, but he thought that if a light heavyweight like Conn could outbox Louis (until foolishly going for the KO) a guy like Ali, who was bigger faster and stronger would not make that mistake.
It was said that Louis dropped his left hand after throwing a jab, if he did this against Ali, he wouldn't have had a chance. Of course if Ali did too much clowning Louis would have dropped him like a bad habit.
There's no way of knowing, but Ali, before his exile from boxing, was in my mind the closest thing to the "perfect" boxer ever.
Conservatively Ali missed 16 fights because of his refusal to be drafted. That would have added to his totals immensely.
I've seen Ali fights and I've seen Louis fights. If they fought....Ali wins.
I completely agree IF Ali plays it straight. Ali clowned around a lot in the ring, he does that against Joe, he's TOAST.
A lot of boxing is about styles. Foreman destroyed Frazier and Norton, two guys who fought Ali very well, yet Ali KOed George.
Most experts rank Ali and Louis as #1 and #2.
Louis was the better puncher, but it's BOXING, not just punching. If you can't hit the other guy, your punching advantage is meaningless.
Frankly, i don't think it's even close.
I'm biased when it comes to Joe Louis, so of course I'm going to say Joe Louis is going to win, but what about Ali vs Marciano, the superfight.
Ali would knock out Marciano in almost any round he wanted.
All my comparisons are prime for prime, which is the only way in my opinion that boxers of different eras should be compared for hypothetical boxing matches.
Even Marciano knocking out Joe Louis and anyone boasting that Marciano was therefore better, isn't being fair of course because Louis was well past his prime when that occurred. Louis was an over-the-hill 37 years old at the time. In fact, Louis was actually retired, but came out of retirement to fight Marciano only because he owed the IRS a lot of money.
Marciano was very tough, I would predict a later round KO for Ali. Certainly would dominate the fight if it went the distance.
I'm not saying that Marciano wasn't a great fighter because of course he obviously was. But frankly, Marciano at around 185 pounds, and the films i've watched of him including the Louis fight, Rocky didn't exactly seem "fast" out there.
I think a number of heavyweights who came along in later years would have beaten him without too much problem. I just can't see him beating Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, etc.
Foreman was 45 yrs old when he won the title.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21