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The real Rocky

doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

The Rocky movies were all started because of a man namedChuck Wepner, who fought Muhammad Ali back in 1975. Chuck Wepner was nicknamed the "Bayonne Bleeder" because he had a tendency to bleed a lot when he got punched. So Wepner was a small time fighter and he was given a shot to fight Ali. The fight took place in 1975, and Chuck Wepner said he just wanted to go the distance with Ali win or lose. The fight was a brutal fight for Wepner, and of course he bled a lot, but he ended up going the distance with Ali for 15 rounds. He even knocked Ali down, which is a controversial knockdown. Some people claim that Ali actually wasn't knocked down, but he actually stumbled when the two fighter feet got tangled up, but never the less, the legend grew. I believe Ali did stumble. Anyway, Sylvester Stallone based his character, Rocky Balboa, on Chuck Wepner, and in the original Rocky movie, it is evident that Rocky is based on Wepner. In the original Rocky movie, Balboa says, "all I want to do is go the distance with Creed. Also in the movie, Apollo Creed is a lot like Ali was, often talking a lot of trash before the fight. The fight ended with Ali winning in the 15th by knockout, but it was a very entertaining fight. It is quite a story indeed, and if it wasn't for Wepner, the Rocky movies wouldn't exist.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Chuck Wepner on the cover of Sports Illustrated before the fight took place.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The real Rocky.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ali vs Wepner.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ali vs Wepner.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ali vs Wepner.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wepner knocks Ali down.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ali on the canvas as Wepner walks away.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ali strikes back.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020 10:21PM

    Wepner goes down.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wepner and Ali before the fight.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Before the fight.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020 10:24PM

    Wepner with Sylvester Stallone.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wepner story on ESPN films.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wepner in his later years.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Anyway, it's a fascinating little story, and I hope you enjoyed the show! 🍻

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 23,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:
    Anyway, it's a fascinating little story, and I hope you enjoyed the show! 🍻

    It was enjoyable - Thanks!

    I wonder if Stallone ever offered or paid any money to Wepner for the inspiration, although legally i don't think that he had to do that. However considering that Wepner probably isn't wealthy, and the fact that the movie made Stallone rich, I think it would be nice if Wepner received some financial benefit from it.

  • jay0791jay0791 Posts: 2,840 ✭✭✭

    I remember watching he original fight on TV.
    Boxing was much ,much bigger then than now.
    My neighbor would buy the pay per view and invite all us kids to come over and watch. His son was my friend.
    I think it was $100 even back then

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020 5:23AM

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:
    Anyway, it's a fascinating little story, and I hope you enjoyed the show! 🍻

    It was enjoyable - Thanks!

    I wonder if Stallone ever offered or paid any money to Wepner for the inspiration, although legally i don't think that he had to do that. However considering that Wepner probably isn't wealthy, and the fact that the movie made Stallone rich, I think it would be nice if Wepner received some financial benefit from it.

    In 2003 Wepner sued Sylvester Stallone for his use of Wepner as the inspiration for the movie Rocky, and the lawsuit was settled with Stallone in 2006 for an undisclosed amount. Another interesting comparison between Wepner and Rocky, was the fact that Rocky wrestled Hulk Hogan in Rocky 3 and was thrown out of the ring in the movie, and in real life Chuck Wepner wrestled Andre the Giant and was thrown out of the ring. Crazy stuff.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jay0791 said:
    I remember watching he original fight on TV.
    Boxing was much ,much bigger then than now.
    My neighbor would buy the pay per view and invite all us kids to come over and watch. His son was my friend.
    I think it was $100 even back then

    Yes, boxing was certainly a lot better back then, than it is now. I have to watch old fights on youtube to get my boxing fix these days. It just isn't anything compared to what it was back then.

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 23,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:
    Anyway, it's a fascinating little story, and I hope you enjoyed the show! 🍻

    It was enjoyable - Thanks!

    I wonder if Stallone ever offered or paid any money to Wepner for the inspiration, although legally i don't think that he had to do that. However considering that Wepner probably isn't wealthy, and the fact that the movie made Stallone rich, I think it would be nice if Wepner received some financial benefit from it.

    In 2003 Wepner sued Sylvester Stallone for his use of Wepner as the inspiration for the movie Rocky, and the lawsuit was settled with Stallone in 2006 for an undisclosed amount. Another interesting comparison between Wepner and Rocky, was the fact that Rocky wrestled Hulk Hogan in Rocky 3 and was thrown out of the ring in the movie, and in real life Chuck Wepner wrestled Andre the Giant and was thrown out of the ring. Crazy stuff.!

    Very interesting.

    Sort of a "late" lawsuit. i mean the movie was released in 1976.

    I guess Stallone using Wepner's name like that, led to Wepner wanting money for it, and i don't blame him for that.

    Just everyone be forewarned, if anyone ever makes a movie inspired by stevek, i'm going to demand a few shekels placed in my bank account, understand? At least five or ten dollars, okay? But that amount is negotiable. 😉

  • stevekstevek Posts: 23,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:

    @jay0791 said:
    I remember watching he original fight on TV.
    Boxing was much ,much bigger then than now.
    My neighbor would buy the pay per view and invite all us kids to come over and watch. His son was my friend.
    I think it was $100 even back then

    Yes, boxing was certainly a lot better back then, than it is now. I have to watch old fights on youtube to get my boxing fix these days. It just isn't anything compared to what it was back then.

    You've probably seen it, but if you haven't, check out the George Foreman vs Ron Lyle fight.

    One for the ages.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @jay0791 said:
    I remember watching he original fight on TV.
    Boxing was much ,much bigger then than now.
    My neighbor would buy the pay per view and invite all us kids to come over and watch. His son was my friend.
    I think it was $100 even back then

    Yes, boxing was certainly a lot better back then, than it is now. I have to watch old fights on youtube to get my boxing fix these days. It just isn't anything compared to what it was back then.

    You've probably seen it, but if you haven't, check out the George Foreman vs Ron Lyle fight.

    One for the ages.

    Yes, I have seen that brutal fight before. You rarely see fights like that these days. I haven't seen that fight in some time, I'm going to have to watch it again. Check out Hagler vs Hearns, that was a pretty good war in the ring.

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 23,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @jay0791 said:
    I remember watching he original fight on TV.
    Boxing was much ,much bigger then than now.
    My neighbor would buy the pay per view and invite all us kids to come over and watch. His son was my friend.
    I think it was $100 even back then

    Yes, boxing was certainly a lot better back then, than it is now. I have to watch old fights on youtube to get my boxing fix these days. It just isn't anything compared to what it was back then.

    You've probably seen it, but if you haven't, check out the George Foreman vs Ron Lyle fight.

    One for the ages.

    Yes, I have seen that brutal fight before. You rarely see fights like that these days. I haven't seen that fight in some time, I'm going to have to watch it again. Check out Hagler vs Hearns, that was a pretty good war in the ring.

    It's funny the Foreman-Lyle fight was just a Saturday afternoon regular TV fight - nothing really supposed to be special about it. I had nothing to do, nothing else of interest on TV, so i decided to watch it. Probably wasn't much of a viewing audience, and lo and behold it turned out to be one of the best fights i ever saw.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,014 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @jay0791 said:
    I remember watching he original fight on TV.
    Boxing was much ,much bigger then than now.
    My neighbor would buy the pay per view and invite all us kids to come over and watch. His son was my friend.
    I think it was $100 even back then

    Yes, boxing was certainly a lot better back then, than it is now. I have to watch old fights on youtube to get my boxing fix these days. It just isn't anything compared to what it was back then.

    You've probably seen it, but if you haven't, check out the George Foreman vs Ron Lyle fight.

    One for the ages.

    Yes, I have seen that brutal fight before. You rarely see fights like that these days. I haven't seen that fight in some time, I'm going to have to watch it again. Check out Hagler vs Hearns, that was a pretty good war in the ring.

    It's funny the Foreman-Lyle fight was just a Saturday afternoon regular TV fight - nothing really supposed to be special about it. I had nothing to do, nothing else of interest on TV, so i decided to watch it. Probably wasn't much of a viewing audience, and lo and behold it turned out to be one of the best fights i ever saw.

    The Forman-Lyle fight was a knock-down-drag-out!! I thought each one had it won several times. They both did what Ali always avoided. They got in front of each other and wailed! Great fight!!

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020 12:46PM

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @jay0791 said:
    I remember watching he original fight on TV.
    Boxing was much ,much bigger then than now.
    My neighbor would buy the pay per view and invite all us kids to come over and watch. His son was my friend.
    I think it was $100 even back then

    Yes, boxing was certainly a lot better back then, than it is now. I have to watch old fights on youtube to get my boxing fix these days. It just isn't anything compared to what it was back then.

    You've probably seen it, but if you haven't, check out the George Foreman vs Ron Lyle fight.

    One for the ages.

    Yes, I have seen that brutal fight before. You rarely see fights like that these days. I haven't seen that fight in some time, I'm going to have to watch it again. Check out Hagler vs Hearns, that was a pretty good war in the ring.

    It's funny the Foreman-Lyle fight was just a Saturday afternoon regular TV fight - nothing really supposed to be special about it. I had nothing to do, nothing else of interest on TV, so i decided to watch it. Probably wasn't much of a viewing audience, and lo and behold it turned out to be one of the best fights i ever saw.

    That's how some of these great fights happen. I remember watching Tyson vs Douglas and thinking the fight would be over in the first or second round, and it turned out to be one heck of a show.

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  • TabeTabe Posts: 3,664 ✭✭✭✭

    The Wepner/Andre match was a live, in-person match for fans at Shea Stadium who were there to watch the Muhammad Ali vs Antonio Inoki fight.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 23,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @jay0791 said:
    I remember watching he original fight on TV.
    Boxing was much ,much bigger then than now.
    My neighbor would buy the pay per view and invite all us kids to come over and watch. His son was my friend.
    I think it was $100 even back then

    Yes, boxing was certainly a lot better back then, than it is now. I have to watch old fights on youtube to get my boxing fix these days. It just isn't anything compared to what it was back then.

    You've probably seen it, but if you haven't, check out the George Foreman vs Ron Lyle fight.

    One for the ages.

    Yes, I have seen that brutal fight before. You rarely see fights like that these days. I haven't seen that fight in some time, I'm going to have to watch it again. Check out Hagler vs Hearns, that was a pretty good war in the ring.

    It's funny the Foreman-Lyle fight was just a Saturday afternoon regular TV fight - nothing really supposed to be special about it. I had nothing to do, nothing else of interest on TV, so i decided to watch it. Probably wasn't much of a viewing audience, and lo and behold it turned out to be one of the best fights i ever saw.

    That's how some of these great fights happen. I remember watching Tyson vs Douglas and thinking the fight would be over in the first or second round, and it turned out to be one heck of a show.

    I watched that one live on TV as well. I jumped up off my couch when Tyson got knocked down. Enjoyed every second of it as Tyson was a real punk back then. I was glad to see the chit get kicked out of him.

    Tyson has mellowed over the years and actually has become a decent human being, and i give him credit for that.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 23,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @jay0791 said:
    I remember watching he original fight on TV.
    Boxing was much ,much bigger then than now.
    My neighbor would buy the pay per view and invite all us kids to come over and watch. His son was my friend.
    I think it was $100 even back then

    Yes, boxing was certainly a lot better back then, than it is now. I have to watch old fights on youtube to get my boxing fix these days. It just isn't anything compared to what it was back then.

    You've probably seen it, but if you haven't, check out the George Foreman vs Ron Lyle fight.

    One for the ages.

    Yes, I have seen that brutal fight before. You rarely see fights like that these days. I haven't seen that fight in some time, I'm going to have to watch it again. Check out Hagler vs Hearns, that was a pretty good war in the ring.

    It's funny the Foreman-Lyle fight was just a Saturday afternoon regular TV fight - nothing really supposed to be special about it. I had nothing to do, nothing else of interest on TV, so i decided to watch it. Probably wasn't much of a viewing audience, and lo and behold it turned out to be one of the best fights i ever saw.

    That's how some of these great fights happen. I remember watching Tyson vs Douglas and thinking the fight would be over in the first or second round, and it turned out to be one heck of a show.

    If I'm remembering right, Buster Douglas was around a 49-1 dog in that fight, which basically means hopeless. But Douglas proved them wrong.

  • jay0791jay0791 Posts: 2,840 ✭✭✭

    " I remember watching Tyson vs Douglas and thinking the fight would be over in the first or second round, and it turned out to be one heck of a show."

    My best buddy and I went up to Lake Placid and watched the that fight in the bar by the Olympic stadium. Screen was the size of a large wall. I remember after the first round saying to him "Douglas is going o win this fight for sure"
    His mother had just died and it was obvious he was fighting for a championship.

    Speaking of brutal fights: Holyfield Vs Lewis 3
    I have never seen anyone take the beating Holyfield did and keep standing. He has my respect for sure. Even tehh announcer Lampley was saying "heart of a Lion" even during the rounds.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @jay0791 said:
    I remember watching he original fight on TV.
    Boxing was much ,much bigger then than now.
    My neighbor would buy the pay per view and invite all us kids to come over and watch. His son was my friend.
    I think it was $100 even back then

    Yes, boxing was certainly a lot better back then, than it is now. I have to watch old fights on youtube to get my boxing fix these days. It just isn't anything compared to what it was back then.

    You've probably seen it, but if you haven't, check out the George Foreman vs Ron Lyle fight.

    One for the ages.

    Yes, I have seen that brutal fight before. You rarely see fights like that these days. I haven't seen that fight in some time, I'm going to have to watch it again. Check out Hagler vs Hearns, that was a pretty good war in the ring.

    It's funny the Foreman-Lyle fight was just a Saturday afternoon regular TV fight - nothing really supposed to be special about it. I had nothing to do, nothing else of interest on TV, so i decided to watch it. Probably wasn't much of a viewing audience, and lo and behold it turned out to be one of the best fights i ever saw.

    That's how some of these great fights happen. I remember watching Tyson vs Douglas and thinking the fight would be over in the first or second round, and it turned out to be one heck of a show.

    If I'm remembering right, Buster Douglas was around a 49-1 dog in that fight, which basically means hopeless. But Douglas proved them wrong.

    Yes, he was a huge underdog in that fight, and nobody gave him a chance to win. I remember Tyson knocked Douglas down once, and I thought uh-oh, Tyson is going to knock him out, but Douglas got up from that knockdown, and came right back after Tyson. Buster Douglas fought his heart out that night, and it was one of the most beautiful examples of boxing I've ever seen. I was rooting for Douglas, because I didn't like Tyson at the time either. I couldn't believe it when Douglas knocked Tyson out, and Tyson's mouthpiece went flying out if his mouth. It was quite a thrill to watch, and definately one if the biggest upsets in sports history.

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jay0791 said:
    " I remember watching Tyson vs Douglas and thinking the fight would be over in the first or second round, and it turned out to be one heck of a show."

    My best buddy and I went up to Lake Placid and watched the that fight in the bar by the Olympic stadium. Screen was the size of a large wall. I remember after the first round saying to him "Douglas is going o win this fight for sure"
    His mother had just died and it was obvious he was fighting for a championship.

    Speaking of brutal fights: Holyfield Vs Lewis 3
    I have never seen anyone take the beating Holyfield did and keep standing. He has my respect for sure. Even tehh announcer Lampley was saying "heart of a Lion" even during the rounds.

    Holyfield definately had a lot of heart, and he is one of my favorite fighters of all time. I actually read an article recently about how Holyfield had a pretty bad heart condition most of his career, and was actually in poor health, but refused to stop fighting. He was a warrior for sure.

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 23,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd say almost every boxing fan likes Evander Holyfield. Tremendous heart and a class act all the way.

    Don't forget that he fought many of his fights as a light-heavyweight, and it's not easy for light-heavyweights to take on and beat heavyweights, let alone become heavyweight champion. But Holyfield did it and superbly.

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great thread!

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020 10:54PM

    I watched a documentary recently about the Ali vs Foreman fight, and the documentary is called "When we were Kings" and it gives a very detailed story behind that famous fight. Before that fight, Foreman was thought of as pretty much indestructible, and Ali wasn't given much of a chance to win. It is still unbelievable that Ali was able to pull that off the way he did. He wore Foreman down on the ropes and then went in for the kill. I always thought that Foreman should have brought Ali back out to the center of the ring and forced him to fight face to face, but instead Foreman fell right into Ali's trap.

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 23,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:
    I watched a documentary recently about the Ali vs Foreman fight, and the documentary is called "When we were Kings" and it gives a very detailed story behind that famous fight. Before that fight, Foreman was thought of as pretty much indestructible, and Ali wasn't given much of a chance to win. It is still unbelievable that Ali was able to pull that off the way he did. He wore Foreman down on the ropes and then went in for the kill. I always thought that Foreman should have brought Ali back out to the center of the ring and forced him to fight face to face, but instead Foreman fell right into Ali's trap.

    Foreman "rope-a-doped" himself into submission.

    My high school football coach used to say as he was making us do extra wind sprints after practice for something that nobody was ever quite sure what we did to deserve the punishment...that "fatigue makes cowards of us all." Likely Lombardi or somebody else said it before him.

    But the phrase is right in that Foreman got so fatigued in that fight that a feather could have knocked him down at that point, let alone an Ali right cross.

    Basically the rope-a-dope was a stroke of genius on the part of Ali. The right strategy in the right fight against the right fighter at the right point in time when Foreman was a very pompous individual.

    Foreman isn't a dumb guy, and he should have figured out in ten seconds what Ali was doing. But his gigantic ego told him that he could just keep punching Ali's arms, and then get a good punch in somehow and beat Ali anyway. George thought he was invincible and then proceeded to totally punch himself out.

    A bad side effect though of Ali absorbing punishment such as that, and he used to do it in other fights as well, was developing Parkinson's like symptoms which led him to uncontrollable shaking and be almost unable to speak. I read one time where someone estimated that throughout Ali's career, including sparing, etc, that he absorbed around 175,000 punches to the head. Whatever is the exact number, it certainly led to Ali's physical deterioration.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stevek said:

    @doubledragon said:
    I watched a documentary recently about the Ali vs Foreman fight, and the documentary is called "When we were Kings" and it gives a very detailed story behind that famous fight. Before that fight, Foreman was thought of as pretty much indestructible, and Ali wasn't given much of a chance to win. It is still unbelievable that Ali was able to pull that off the way he did. He wore Foreman down on the ropes and then went in for the kill. I always thought that Foreman should have brought Ali back out to the center of the ring and forced him to fight face to face, but instead Foreman fell right into Ali's trap.

    Foreman "rope-a-doped" himself into submission.

    My high school football coach used to say as he was making us do extra wind sprints after practice for something that nobody was ever quite sure what we did to deserve the punishment...that "fatigue makes cowards of us all." Likely Lombardi or somebody else said it before him.

    But the phrase is right in that Foreman got so fatigued in that fight that a feather could have knocked him down at that point, let alone an Ali right cross.

    Basically the rope-a-dope was a stroke of genius on the part of Ali. The right strategy in the right fight against the right fighter at the right point in time when Foreman was a very pompous individual.

    Foreman isn't a dumb guy, and he should have figured out in ten seconds what Ali was doing. But his gigantic ego told him that he could just keep punching Ali's arms, and then get a good punch in somehow and beat Ali anyway. George thought he was invincible and then proceeded to totally punch himself out.

    A bad side effect though of Ali absorbing punishment such as that, and he used to do it in other fights as well, was developing Parkinson's like symptoms which led him to uncontrollable shaking and be almost unable to speak. I read one time where someone estimated that throughout Ali's career, including sparing, etc, that he absorbed around 175,000 punches to the head. Whatever is the exact number, it certainly led to Ali's physical deterioration.

    Yes, Ali was a genius with his rope a dope strategy for sure, but he definitely paid a huge price for it. He could take a punch like no other boxer that I've ever seen, and it was sad to see his ability to speak and function decline significantly. I think he probably should have retired sooner than he did. He took quite a beating in the Larry Holmes fight. It was hard to watch that fight.

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  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ali had a couple of strategies for Foreman; in the first round or two, he hit Foreman repeatedly in the head with right hand "leads" a punch seldom thrown in a fight and sparring partners never did this.

    Ali thought he might knock George out early.

    If you watch the fight it's obvious, Ali connected with some great shots, but could not knock George out.

    "Rope-a-Dope" was not invented for this fight, although Ali never used it to this extent. Ali did it from time to time in order to "rest" during a round. Pretty much all of his opponents took the opportunity to try to pound on Ali. Frazier was the best at it.

    Ali, however didn't take too many punches to the head, he sacrificed his body by (for the most part) keeping his hands up and rarely getting hit in the head. Ali took a TON of punches to the body.

    Unfortunately, Ali hung on too long, as most fighters do.

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  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,014 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ali is the GOAT and always will be!

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 23,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:
    Ali had a couple of strategies for Foreman; in the first round or two, he hit Foreman repeatedly in the head with right hand "leads" a punch seldom thrown in a fight and sparring partners never did this.

    Ali thought he might knock George out early.

    If you watch the fight it's obvious, Ali connected with some great shots, but could not knock George out.

    "Rope-a-Dope" was not invented for this fight, although Ali never used it to this extent. Ali did it from time to time in order to "rest" during a round. Pretty much all of his opponents took the opportunity to try to pound on Ali. Frazier was the best at it.

    Ali, however didn't take too many punches to the head, he sacrificed his body by (for the most part) keeping his hands up and rarely getting hit in the head. Ali took a TON of punches to the body.

    Unfortunately, Ali hung on too long, as most fighters do.

    <<< "Rope-a-Dope" was not invented for this fight >>>

    I watched a lot of heavyweight boxing during this era, and most of Ali's fights before the Foreman fight, and I don't recall him doing that before. Perhaps I'm wrong on that, but i recall watching the Foreman fight, seeing Ali do that, and saying to myself "WTF is that?" Not only had i never seen Ali do it, i never saw any other boxer do it.

    Ali definitely used it again after the Foreman fight a number of times, but it wasn't nearly as effective because of course his opponents prepared for that possibility, knew how to handle it, and not punch themselves out.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 23,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DIMEMAN said:
    Ali is the GOAT and always will be!

    I didn't particularly like Ali personally (RIP), but i have to agree that Ali is the GOAT heavyweight.

    I just can't envision any other heavyweight boxer from any other era, prime for prime, defeating Ali.

  • stevekstevek Posts: 23,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ali versus Holyfield would have been an extremely interesting fight.

    Don't even get me started on Ali versus Mike Tyson. Ali could have knocked him out in any round he chose.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,014 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stevek said:
    Ali versus Holyfield would have been an extremely interesting fight.

    Don't even get me started on Ali versus Mike Tyson. Ali could have knocked him out in any round he chose.

    Holyfield was very good, but no match for Ali. And I agree with you on Ali vs Tyson.

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 23,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DIMEMAN said:

    @stevek said:
    Ali versus Holyfield would have been an extremely interesting fight.

    Don't even get me started on Ali versus Mike Tyson. Ali could have knocked him out in any round he chose.

    Holyfield was very good, but no match for Ali. And I agree with you on Ali vs Tyson.

    Ali's jab would have been brutal against Holyfield, setting up the right cross.

    I'm not saying Holyfield would win the fight, i just still think it would have been extremely interesting to watch, particularly the tactics that Holyfield would use.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Holyfield had a tendency to headbutt opponents when he got in close to them. Hasim Rahman learned that the hard way against Holyfield.

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  • Norton gave Ali fits, so I think a fighter like Marciano could've beaten Ali.

  • jay0791jay0791 Posts: 2,840 ✭✭✭

    Looks like someone threw a George foreman grill at him and got him on the noggin.

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  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,014 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:
    Holyfield had a tendency to headbutt opponents when he got in close to them. Hasim Rahman learned that the hard way against Holyfield.

    I never understood the headbutt?? Why does it only hurt the buttee and not the butter!!??

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DIMEMAN said:

    @doubledragon said:
    Holyfield had a tendency to headbutt opponents when he got in close to them. Hasim Rahman learned that the hard way against Holyfield.

    I never understood the headbutt?? Why does it only hurt the buttee and not the butter!!??

    That's a good question. It never seemed to phase Holyfield at all.😂

    Hello, I'm a Joe Louis card addict.

  • JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 6,730 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @stevek said:

    <<< "Rope-a-Dope" was not invented for this fight >>>

    I watched a lot of heavyweight boxing during this era, and most of Ali's fights before the Foreman fight, and I don't recall him doing that before. Perhaps I'm wrong on that, but i recall watching the Foreman fight, seeing Ali do that, and saying to myself "WTF is that?" Not only had i never seen Ali do it, i never saw any other boxer do it.

    Ali definitely used it again after the Foreman fight a number of times, but it wasn't nearly as effective because of course his opponents prepared for that possibility, knew how to handle it, and not punch themselves out.

    From the article "How Muhammad Ali's Rope-A-Dope Myth Suckered America" by Michael Ezra;

    Coming back from three and a half years out of the ring, Ali retreated to the ropes in all of his toughest post-exile fights. Skill, courage, and strategy—the heroic things people associate with the rope-a-dope—did not factor significantly into Ali's decision to employ it against Foreman. Ali went to the ropes simply because he had no choice. Foreman could either cut off the ring or use his prodigious arm strength to push Ali into corners. Ali was too old to dance for more than a round or two, and it was too hot and humid for that in Zaire, anyway. Rather than a master stroke, the rope-a-dope was the product of a straightforward calculation against a fighter who couldn't be bothered to respond in kind, whose skill set went to pot when tested by ring-savvy opponents such as Gregorio Peralta and Jimmy Young.

    An Ali standard in those years, the rope-a-dope usually didn't work because it needed a sucker, an actual dope, to be effective. Joe Frazier, no dope, hurt Ali when he used the tactic. Ron Lyle, no dope, sometimes waited at ring center, and even waved Ali forward when he retreated. Only Foreman fought dopily enough for it to work, inflicting blunt-force trauma to Ali's arms, upper torso, and kidneys. This tactic has proven effective for certain fighters at certain times, battering opponents' defenses to open up clean head shots, but anyone who thinks that's what could have happened in Zaire doesn't understand the difference between Muhammad Ali and Roland La Starza.

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  • stevekstevek Posts: 23,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JoeBanzai said:

    @stevek said:

    <<< "Rope-a-Dope" was not invented for this fight >>>

    I watched a lot of heavyweight boxing during this era, and most of Ali's fights before the Foreman fight, and I don't recall him doing that before. Perhaps I'm wrong on that, but i recall watching the Foreman fight, seeing Ali do that, and saying to myself "WTF is that?" Not only had i never seen Ali do it, i never saw any other boxer do it.

    Ali definitely used it again after the Foreman fight a number of times, but it wasn't nearly as effective because of course his opponents prepared for that possibility, knew how to handle it, and not punch themselves out.

    From the article "How Muhammad Ali's Rope-A-Dope Myth Suckered America" by Michael Ezra;

    Coming back from three and a half years out of the ring, Ali retreated to the ropes in all of his toughest post-exile fights. Skill, courage, and strategy—the heroic things people associate with the rope-a-dope—did not factor significantly into Ali's decision to employ it against Foreman. Ali went to the ropes simply because he had no choice. Foreman could either cut off the ring or use his prodigious arm strength to push Ali into corners. Ali was too old to dance for more than a round or two, and it was too hot and humid for that in Zaire, anyway. Rather than a master stroke, the rope-a-dope was the product of a straightforward calculation against a fighter who couldn't be bothered to respond in kind, whose skill set went to pot when tested by ring-savvy opponents such as Gregorio Peralta and Jimmy Young.

    An Ali standard in those years, the rope-a-dope usually didn't work because it needed a sucker, an actual dope, to be effective. Joe Frazier, no dope, hurt Ali when he used the tactic. Ron Lyle, no dope, sometimes waited at ring center, and even waved Ali forward when he retreated. Only Foreman fought dopily enough for it to work, inflicting blunt-force trauma to Ali's arms, upper torso, and kidneys. This tactic has proven effective for certain fighters at certain times, battering opponents' defenses to open up clean head shots, but anyone who thinks that's what could have happened in Zaire doesn't understand the difference between Muhammad Ali and Roland La Starza.

    I disagree with some of that author's premise. I watched that fight live on TV. My recollection is that Ali didn't seem to be in any particular trouble when he initiated the rope-a-dope. The way it played out, it sure seemed well planned to me. Ali likely initiated some smack out there to hiss Foreman off and lure him in.

    Foreman took the bait like a mouse goes for cheese in a mousetrap. Ali set it up perfectly, Foreman couldn't resist, punched himself out, and got himself beat.

    i'm not saying that Foreman wasn't aware of being careful not to punch himself out. Every boxer knows that and trains for it. But Foreman just kept flailing away at the easy target, likely figuring the next punch could get in and knock out Ali. That frame of mind proved disastrous.

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