Could this 1965 Kennedy Half be eligible for a First Day of Issue Label? Major Variety?

Texast

@HeatherBoyd , could you point this thread to the right party that could opine or PM me about this, it would be easier than trying to explain on the phone. Thanks.
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I got this at a Coin Show in Dearborn Michigan in 1979 (The big Detroit show), I seem to remember buying it from a dealer among a bunch of miscellaneous items.

This is sealed with an end flap where the Stamp is the seal, there is no way to get the coin out without destroying the envelope.

It shows a March 9th 1966 postal mark. I remember that the 1965 half came out very late due to the demand for the 1964 which was still in production until 1966. Wikipedia shows that the first 1965 Half was not struck until December 30, 1965. Along with the major coin shortage with the switch to clad it seems possible. Is this Kennedy half the first day, first issue?, could it be that the Stamp was also first day? Being as the postmark was San Clemente CA that's just about in PCGS's back yard. Prominence? Value? I have no way of knowing right now. I would love to submit it for consideration.

I did notice the Hair is more detailed than the MS67'S in Coin Facts, and Price guide, the FG on the rev is also different, possible variety?

It would be great to get that first day label.

Close ups blurred by cellophane.

Information on the Trade Mark for First Day First Issue. Deleated for space.

OPA

Good luck. Unlikely. I believe it has got to be in a US Mint issued packaging.

jmlanzaf

That stamp was issued in May 29, 1964

TurtleCat

Very intriguing. An argument could be made that PCGS would accept but I don’t think they will since it’s not in something that couldn’t be faked now.

Texast

@jmlanzaf said:
That stamp was issued in May 29, 1964

So that would leave the Half for First Day - First Issue.

One interesting point is the TM trade mark next to the "First Day - First Issue" meaning it may have been a company puting this out. A primitive slab? The wording is awfully close to the First Day of Issue, maybe issued by some who wound up associated with PCGS?

Texast

@OPA said:
Good luck. Unlikely. I believe it has got to be in a US Mint issued packaging.

The Mint only issued Special Mint Sets for the 1965 coins, this is a regular business strike.

Maybe someone in the know with PCGS would like to see it.

CaptHenway

Much more interesting as is than in a slab.

Texast

@CaptHenway said:
Much more interesting as is than in a slab.

I was wondering if they could slab the whole thing?

1Bufffan

Our host will not recognize the VIP Sacagawea why then would they want to slab this as a first day issue is beyond me, but then what do I know, Good luck in your endeavors.

JBK

Why slab it at all? It stands on its own as is.

Texast

@JBK said:
Why slab it at all? It stands on its own as is.

Better value at auction with a pop 1 FDOI label. As is not much more than BU value. I working on my Morgan set and there is still a lot of open spots when the minimum is MS64 and better.

ernie11

I recall something vaguely similar in a 1964 Kennedy Half that sold back in 1969 for $18,000.

https://numismaticnews.net/article/kennedy_sold_for_18000_at_1969_auction

Oldhoopster

Since it appears to be a privately issued collectable and not an official mint issue, I believe it’s going to take a lot more research to determine when the coin was really struck (if it’s even possible). Assuming the postmark is accurate and the wiki info on the start date is correct, the best you can say is that it was struck during the first 2 months of production

I also don’t think a major TPG will slab the whole thing as is. How can they verify that the paper or plastic window won’t degrade and/or damage the coin? I think you have an interesting piece, but since it’s a private issue, the value may be limited. Now if you can prove that it’s a new variety of 1965 halves, that could make a difference. Looks like you have a research project to work on.

Texast

@ernie11 said:
I recall something vaguely similar in a 1964 Kennedy Half that sold back in 1969 for $18,000.

https://numismaticnews.net/article/kennedy_sold_for_18000_at_1969_auction

Thank you for the information, unfortunately it does not say where this occurred but apparently the practice may have been accurately documented. There is no way to see if there is other information on the insert card, I'm sure there is, also the trademark would be traceable to a name and business.

JBK

As far as I know there are strict requirements that TPGs use for determining what constitutes FDOI or merits a special label.

I don't think that a privately issued collectable from 55 years ago will meet any of those requirements, especially if its origin and issuer are undocumented.

Crack it out and you have a bullion value coin. Leave it as is and you have at least some premium for the packaging.

jmlanzaf

@Texast said:

@jmlanzaf said:
That stamp was issued in May 29, 1964

So that would leave the Half for First Day - First Issue.

One interesting point is the TM trade mark next to the "First Day - First Issue" meaning it may have been a company puting this out. A primitive slab? The wording is awfully close to the First Day of Issue, maybe issued by some who wound up associated with PCGS?

There's nothing that guarantees that even the Half is 1st day of anything, for a couple reasons:

1. It could just be marketing hype.

2. The 1st release occurred in California???

CaptHenway

It looks like an early issue of "The 99 Company," but I cannot find it online.

Texast

@jmlanzaf said:

@Texast said:

@jmlanzaf said:
That stamp was issued in May 29, 1964

So that would leave the Half for First Day - First Issue.

One interesting point is the TM trade mark next to the "First Day - First Issue" meaning it may have been a company puting this out. A primitive slab? The wording is awfully close to the First Day of Issue, maybe issued by some who wound up associated with PCGS?

There's nothing that guarantees that even the Half is 1st day of anything, for a couple reasons:

1. It could just be marketing hype.

2. The 1st release occurred in California???

I have to believe that the coin politics at the time had releases all over the country, you also have to think of the real politics, for those that don't know or don't remember it was that San Clemente was the home of then former Vice President Nixon.

I'm sure the grading companies have run into similar situations before. That was the way it was done back then before TPG's, plastics like you find in the old capital holders were not cheap if it existed at all, and you would not pay that kind of money when an envelope stamp and postmark would do. This was a much different country then.

JBK

@Texast said:

One interesting point is the TM trade mark next to the "First Day - First Issue" meaning it may have been a company puting this out. A primitive slab? The wording is awfully close to the First Day of Issue, maybe issued by some who wound up associated with PCGS?

That "TM" indicator actually hurts the case, in my opinion. It means the term is a trademark and not a simple statement of fact.

Some years ago there was a company that advertised all manner of things in the backs of magazines and advertising supplements (a hunting knife was one item I recall) and always headlined the ads with "Famous Nationally Advertised...". But, that term had a trademark symbol next to it, so that line was simply a registered slogan, not a statement that the items were actually famous or nationally advertised.

Also, the filings you posted are inconclusive - the first one has a status of "abandoned", and the second one pertains to a postmark in its entirely that included the words "First Day of Issue".

The US Post Office (later the USPS) began using the words ""First Day of Issue" within postmarks many decades ago.

Texast

@JBK said:

@Texast said:

One interesting point is the TM trade mark next to the "First Day - First Issue" meaning it may have been a company puting this out. A primitive slab? The wording is awfully close to the First Day of Issue, maybe issued by some who wound up associated with PCGS?

That "TM" indicator actually hurts the case, in my opinion. It means the term is a trademark and not a simple statement of fact.

Some years ago there was a company that advertised all manner of things in the backs of magazines and advertising supplements (a hunting knife was one item I recall) and always headlined the ads with "Famous Nationally Advertised...". But, that term had a trademark symbol next to it, so that line was simply a registered slogan, not a statement that the items were actually famous or nationally advertised.

Also, the filings you posted are inconclusive - the first one has a status of "abandoned", and the second one pertains to a postmark in its entirely that included the words "First Day of Issue".

The US Post Office (later the USPS) began using the words ""First Day of Issue" within postmarks many decades ago.

The only reason for showing the Trade Mark information is to show that the search for information is taking place and that it is continuing, right now this is a work in progress that is much easier to do now than 41 years ago when I bought this. Someone here may have knowledge about it and we can track this down.

If anyone knows about a Coin Club in San Clemente I would appreciate it if the will PM me. Part of the fun is the dream, isn't it?

jmlanzaf

@Texast said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Texast said:

@jmlanzaf said:
That stamp was issued in May 29, 1964

So that would leave the Half for First Day - First Issue.

One interesting point is the TM trade mark next to the "First Day - First Issue" meaning it may have been a company puting this out. A primitive slab? The wording is awfully close to the First Day of Issue, maybe issued by some who wound up associated with PCGS?

There's nothing that guarantees that even the Half is 1st day of anything, for a couple reasons:

1. It could just be marketing hype.

2. The 1st release occurred in California???

I have to believe that the coin politics at the time had releases all over the country, you also have to think of the real politics, for those that don't know or don't remember it was that San Clemente was the home of then former Vice President Nixon.

I'm sure the grading companies have run into similar situations before. That was the way it was done back then before TPG's, plastics like you find in the old capital holders were not cheap if it existed at all, and you would not pay that kind of money when an envelope stamp and postmark would do. This was a much different country then.

I doubt LBJ felt the need to release a coin in Nixon's home town.

This also was NOT a major release. The 64 coin was the big release. This was just the debased version and I doubt they did any First Day ceremonies at all. If they did, there would have been one or two.

ricko

It is an interesting item.... with more interest in the package as a whole, than in the coin alone....Good luck with your research... I hope you can discover something of value. Cheers, RickO

Texast

@jmlanzaf said:

@Texast said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Texast said:

@jmlanzaf said:
That stamp was issued in May 29, 1964

So that would leave the Half for First Day - First Issue.

One interesting point is the TM trade mark next to the "First Day - First Issue" meaning it may have been a company puting this out. A primitive slab? The wording is awfully close to the First Day of Issue, maybe issued by some who wound up associated with PCGS?

There's nothing that guarantees that even the Half is 1st day of anything, for a couple reasons:

1. It could just be marketing hype.

2. The 1st release occurred in California???

I have to believe that the coin politics at the time had releases all over the country, you also have to think of the real politics, for those that don't know or don't remember it was that San Clemente was the home of then former Vice President Nixon.

I'm sure the grading companies have run into similar situations before. That was the way it was done back then before TPG's, plastics like you find in the old capital holders were not cheap if it existed at all, and you would not pay that kind of money when an envelope stamp and postmark would do. This was a much different country then.

I doubt LBJ felt the need to release a coin in Nixon's home town.

This also was NOT a major release. The 64 coin was the big release. This was just the debased version and I doubt they did any First Day ceremonies at all. If they did, there would have been one or two.

I guess I have worked around to many politicians in my time, I'm not going to say anymore about politics. I'm searching for help in finding out about this item, it would have stayed buried in a box in my safe If it had not been for another thread that talked about problems with mint sets and I went through to check mint sets and ran across this.

Maybe it should have stayed at the bottom of the box.

I will just call PCGS next week and talk with someone who does know some answers. If nothing else I will get to talk with someone about a group of coins I'm getting ready for submission.

I'm done here for the day...

SanctionII

There used to be a coin shop in San Clemente on the main street leading to the beach (Del Mar).

I shopped their many times over the years. The shop owner and his wife had owned and operated the shop for decades. The shop owner was 15-20 years older than me and may have been in the hobby as a collector or dealer in the 1960's or 1970's.

10 + years ago the shop closed. I do not recall the name of the owner, but if you can look him and and track him down he may be a source of information about your 1965 Kennedy and the packaging it is in.

You definitely should keep the coin as it is in the packaging. It has a story to it that may yet be revealed and told.

amwldcoin

It is neat!

Jimnight

Is that a hit on the rim above the B in Liberty?

Texast

@Jimnight said:
Is that a hit on the rim above the B in Liberty?

No that's light reflecting, no hits on the coin, I will say it has it share of normal production wear, I'm sure it would have a problem making 64, so MS63 at best, yet it's the most detail on the hair of any 1965 I have seen pictures of. Extreme full strike.

Jimnight

It would be nice if it all worked out for you. Good luck.

ms70

@Texast said:

@CaptHenway said:
Much more interesting as is than in a slab.

I was wondering if they could slab the whole thing?

I'd just put it in a nice frame.

CaptHenway

Here are some examples of The 99 Company's work:

https://www.coinsbullionsilvergold.com/ussr-rouble/99-company-pnc.html

JBK

Definitely one of theirs.

A bit suspicious that they have all these first day coins including foreign.

Texast

@JBK said:
Definitely one of theirs.

A bit suspicious that they have all these first day coins including foreign.

I use to see that a lot back in the day, you have to remember there were no slabs, no TPG's to grade them.I still remember when the Ike Dollar was released in 71 and the $2 bill was released in 76, the line at the banks and then the post office were incredible.

Today's generations will never truly appreciate how easy they have it with what PCGS has done for the coin market.

CaptHenway

@JBK said:
Definitely one of theirs.

A bit suspicious that they have all these first day coins including foreign.

Hey, they needed product to sell. How many U.S. "First Day" coins were there back then?

JBK

Part of the PNC craze - mid 60s was early for that, though. Maybe they helped start that area of collecting.

I wonder if anyone is left from that company who can attest to their process. They seemed to be very well organized with the overseas connections and all.

USSID17

Looks like they did 66's as well. Great thread. I've been wondering about this issue. Thanks for the info!

MWallace

Here is a 1979 SBA First Day of Issue in a TPG Holder. I've had it for several years. When I got it I inquired (via email) with NGC on how they knew it was a FDOI. They replied it had been removed from a privately made FDC.

Klif50

@CaptHenway said:
Here are some examples of The 99 Company's work:

https://www.coinsbullionsilvergold.com/ussr-rouble/99-company-pnc.html

@CaptHenway Thank you for posting about the 99 company. Quite a few years back I was an avid (rabid) stamp collector and then branched out to FDC and in the process started to pick up a lot (LOT) of these covers from the 99 Company. They have all long since been relegated to a storage shed but I do remember some amazing covers and I also remember being subscribed to a service that sent me the new PNC covers.

Thank you and the OP for letting me drift back in time to that usually cloudy time of sorting through thousands of FDC and PNC covers.

coinkat

Nixon was a resident of New York in 1966. He acquired the San Clemente property in 1969. His home town was Yorba Linda and that is the location of the Nixon Library.

While I cannot explain the San Clements post mark, it has nothing to do with Nixon.

The item in question is likely better off as it currently stands- The stamp was issued as a commem in 1964. I suspect that the 1965 dated 40% silver half would have had an earlier release date than March of 1966- however, I did not check any sources

CaptHenway

@coinkat said:
Nixon was a resident of New York in 1966. He acquired the San Clemente property in 1969. His home town was Yorba Linda and that is the location of the Nixon Library.

While I cannot explain the San Clements post mark, it has nothing to do with Nixon.

The item in question is likely better off as it currently stands- The stamp was issued as a commem in 1964. I suspect that the 1965 dated 40% silver half would have had an earlier release date than March of 1966- however, I did not check any sources

1964-dated halves were struck into calendar year 1966 to fight hoarding.

coinkat

CaptHenway... Thanks as I did not check any reliable sources.

Jillmv

I have same it came in a book with another coin about man landing in on the moon. Having trouble figuring out how to share photo…
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0c2rvrO9OFrwK2tllzUO-Ln8w

dcarr

Here is another type of product from 99 Company:

dcarr

@MWallace said:
Here is a 1979 SBA First Day of Issue in a TPG Holder. I've had it for several years. When I got it I inquired (via email) with NGC on how they knew it was a FDOI. They replied it had been removed from a privately made FDC.

That is interesting. There could potentially be a lot of other US & world coins certified as First Day of Issue if NGC still does that from 99 Company covers. Will PCGS do the same ? I hope we can find out.