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"IkesT", I agree with you on all the excellent points that you just made in your above post!
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As one who I think knows Eisenhower dollars well, you must find it remarkable to compare the "SP-65+" prototype (bearing its vintage pilofilm hazing) with the images of it post-conservation, and newly-graded as a "SP-67" example.
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While this is pure speculation on my part, I would like to think that Frank Gasparro managed to sneak a few of the best prototype Ikes into the population of regular blue ikes.
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The prototype Ikes are stunning to look at - perhaps the finest Ikes ever made - and I suspect he would have been loath to see all of them destroyed, which is what was supposed to have happened.
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I am in full agreement, "IkesT" (and you certainly know your Ikes)!
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David
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Hey guys, it's the moon! The moon is slightly more poorly engraved on this one. It helps to have an image 200 or 300% normal. And you kind of have to squint to see it.
But that's it! The moon is barely different.
So there you go.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
@DFrohman said
As one who I think knows Eisenhower dollars well, you must find it remarkable to compare the "SP-65+" prototype (bearing its vintage pilofilm hazing) with the images of it post-conservation, and newly-graded as a "SP-67" example.
Yes, it really turned out terrifically well - congratulations on the transformation!
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I am in full agreement, "IkesT" (and you certainly know your Ikes)!
Well, that's why they call me IkesT - Thanks, David!
@cladking said:
OK. I already checked all my '71 Ikes but for the life of me I don't remember what the PUP is.
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It depends where you get your puppy from, and whether it has had its shots! I am actually partial to the "Philadelphian Bald-Headed Prototypius" variety myself (but make sure that it has been carefully inspected and de-pilofilmed first)!
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@DFrohman What are the pick up points we can use to identify one of these?
@crypto said
Open minded about it though, where am i wrong?
Everywhere, but let me explain
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I believe it is really just an unusual die combo that used what ended up as a proof die on one side. The dies imparted an unusual finish which is hardly unprecedented.
The coin has neither a business strike nor a proof finish - it has a specimen finish, hence the "SP" designation on the PCGS grade. Some modern mint set coins are made with a specimen finish (e.g., special mint set coins), but outside of those sets, any U.S. coin with a specimen finish is extremely rare.
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That said I don't think there is any real evidence that proves this to be a prototype and in my mind is more closely related to the type B and C Washington quarters.
The Type B and C reverses on Washington quarters are reverse design varieties that are found regularly on business strike and/or proof coins. On some dates, these reverse designs can be hard to find.
In contrast, the obverse and reverse of the prototype Ikes are both of a unique design that is not found on any business strike or proof coins.
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The 2000 Sacajaweas tail feathers might not be a bad comparison although we know those were preproduction. There is a lot of assumptions about an unusual die pair with these.
Yes, the 2000 P Cheerios dollar is in the same category, because both it and the 1971-S Ike prototypes are examples of pattern coins with designs that differ from normal business strike & proof coinage. In the case of the Cheerios dollar, only the reverse has a pattern design - the obverse design matches normal business strike & proof coins.
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I would think finding them in blue packs would discredit the theory but like with many coins, the story just bends to incorporate the few facts.
No. A very small number of prototype Ikes (only 3 known, so far) somehow made their way into blue packs. If the prototype dies were put into regular production for making blue ikes, hundreds of thousands of coins would have been minted, and every Ike collector would have found them by now.
How and why these very few prototype Ikes got into blue packs is a real mystery, and one of the most facinating parts of this story.
While this is pure speculation on my part, I would like to think that Frank Gasparro managed to sneak a few of the best prototype Ikes into the population of regular blue ikes. The prototype Ikes are stunning to look at - perhaps the finest Ikes ever made - and I suspect he would have been loath to see all of them destroyed, which is what was supposed to have happened.
All you know for sure is that it is a unusual die pair. Everything else is speculation based off Circumstantial evidence that ignores evidence to the contrary.
One could also say definitively
-They were found in circulation channels and should be consider cut coins until proven otherwise
-in general population blue packs
-the only official document to the “prototype theory” presented states that all prototypes were destroyed by law.
-no provenance or linkage to mint officials
-no proof they were even early 71
A rare die type is cool, a unusual finish is cool as there are PL Ike’s too. Your story is cool, but none of that makes it facts.
The sacs are cool because we know they came out of the mint early for a special reason and they have a unique die pair. If they just had a unique die pair and no story they wouldn’t be worth nearly as much. But I suspect all here know that which is why they circulate the story of the Ike as fact instead of theory. I read it all and see creative speculation and correlation.
But rare die pairs typically have some story so it is fun to guess
Hey guys, it's the moon! The moon is slightly more poorly engraved on this one. It helps to have an image 200 or 300% normal. And you kind of have to squint to see it.
But that's it! The moon is barely different.
So there you go.
Why are you so determined to have this smark aleck attitude toward this coin and the OP?
Why are you so determined to have this smark aleck attitude toward this coin and the OP?
Someone with 30+/- posts making claims unsubstantiated at best, outrageous at worst, defended by two other posters with post counts in the 30s and teens, respectively.
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smark
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I'm jealous.
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Take your pick.
I prefer #2, but I'm funny that way.
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We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
Hey guys, it's the moon! The moon is slightly more poorly engraved on this one. It helps to have an image 200 or 300% normal. And you kind of have to squint to see it.
@DFrohman said
As one who I think knows Eisenhower dollars well, you must find it remarkable to compare the "SP-65+" prototype (bearing its vintage pilofilm hazing) with the images of it post-conservation, and newly-graded as a "SP-67" example.
Yes, it really turned out terrifically well - congratulations on the transformation!
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I am in full agreement, "IkesT" (and you certainly know your Ikes)!
Well, that's why they call me IkesT - Thanks, David!
I would also submit that although knowing the exact origin of the coins with 100% certainty would be very interesting from a historical and numismatic perspective (I'd certainly love to know the full story), it doesn't particularly matter in terms of the great numismatic value of the few surviving specimens we have left.
Say the coins were minted to be sold as blue ikes, but production was abruptly stopped. Say hundreds of thousands were minted, but the mistake was discovered, and most of them were dumped. Say they are prototypes that were accidentally or intentionally mixed into the population of regular blue ikes, or were released in small numbers as samples.
We may never find out exactly what happened, but the fact is, only a tiny number of them survived, and they are all that is left of those unique Ike designs. They are going to be greatly appreciated by numismatists no matter what.
Comments
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"IkesT", I agree with you on all the excellent points that you just made in your above post!
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As one who I think knows Eisenhower dollars well, you must find it remarkable to compare the "SP-65+" prototype (bearing its vintage pilofilm hazing) with the images of it post-conservation, and newly-graded as a "SP-67" example.
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Thanks for your feedback!
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David
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@IkesT said:
While this is pure speculation on my part, I would like to think that Frank Gasparro managed to sneak a few of the best prototype Ikes into the population of regular blue ikes.
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The prototype Ikes are stunning to look at - perhaps the finest Ikes ever made - and I suspect he would have been loath to see all of them destroyed, which is what was supposed to have happened.
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I am in full agreement, "IkesT" (and you certainly know your Ikes)!
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David
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OH! NOW I SEE IT!
Hey guys, it's the moon! The moon is slightly more poorly engraved on this one. It helps to have an image 200 or 300% normal. And you kind of have to squint to see it.
But that's it! The moon is barely different.
So there you go.
--Severian the Lame
Yes, it really turned out terrifically well - congratulations on the transformation!
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Well, that's why they call me IkesT
- Thanks, David!
@DFrohman What are the pick up points we can use to identify one of these?
@thisistheshow
@cladking
The pickup points are discussed here:
http://www.ikegroup.info/chapter34/chapter34.pdf
Note that the Lydston and Chatham prototypes have a different obverse design with different pickup points.
All you know for sure is that it is a unusual die pair. Everything else is speculation based off Circumstantial evidence that ignores evidence to the contrary.
One could also say definitively
-They were found in circulation channels and should be consider cut coins until proven otherwise
-in general population blue packs
-the only official document to the “prototype theory” presented states that all prototypes were destroyed by law.
-no provenance or linkage to mint officials
-no proof they were even early 71
A rare die type is cool, a unusual finish is cool as there are PL Ike’s too. Your story is cool, but none of that makes it facts.
The sacs are cool because we know they came out of the mint early for a special reason and they have a unique die pair. If they just had a unique die pair and no story they wouldn’t be worth nearly as much. But I suspect all here know that which is why they circulate the story of the Ike as fact instead of theory. I read it all and see creative speculation and correlation.
But rare die pairs typically have some story so it is fun to guess
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Why are you so determined to have this smark aleck attitude toward this coin and the OP?
My Eisenhower Dollar Complete Variety Set, Circulation Strikes and Proof (PCGS Registry):
https://www.PCGS.com/SetRegistry/dollars/eisenhower-dollars-specialty-sets/eisenhower-dollars-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-proof-1971-1978/publishedset/119137
Darth Morgan - "The Other Ike Dollars" Showcase: https://www.PCGS.com/setregistry/showcase/3354
The Eisenhower Dollar Meeting Room: https://www.facebook.com/groups/933585237044733
Someone with 30+/- posts making claims unsubstantiated at best, outrageous at worst, defended by two other posters with post counts in the 30s and teens, respectively.
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smark
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I'm jealous.
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Take your pick.
I prefer #2, but I'm funny that way.
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--Severian the Lame
Ahhh... my limited Ike PUP skills are returning.
I remember looking for this PUP at some point but don't remember why.
Surely some Ike expert will want the coin.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
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Thank you!
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I would also submit that although knowing the exact origin of the coins with 100% certainty would be very interesting from a historical and numismatic perspective (I'd certainly love to know the full story), it doesn't particularly matter in terms of the great numismatic value of the few surviving specimens we have left.
Say the coins were minted to be sold as blue ikes, but production was abruptly stopped. Say hundreds of thousands were minted, but the mistake was discovered, and most of them were dumped. Say they are prototypes that were accidentally or intentionally mixed into the population of regular blue ikes, or were released in small numbers as samples.
We may never find out exactly what happened, but the fact is, only a tiny number of them survived, and they are all that is left of those unique Ike designs. They are going to be greatly appreciated by numismatists no matter what.