Carbon spots on CAC’d gold
Collect4fun
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I’ve been looking at a few CAC’d coins that have carbon spots. Obviously, JA is ok with them. Do they say something about the originality of the surface? I wasn’t sure if dipping removed them.
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I asked this very question to John the day of the CAC launch in front of a room full of people. He said he is fine with “some” copper spots and it did speak to the originality. Of course if one doesn’t like it then don’t buy it
Don’t dip.
mark
Edited for clarity
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I appreciate that feedback, Mark. I don’t think it’s always distracting, but I was surprised by a few of the coins I have seen. I figured it had to lend itself to the originality.
I wouldn’t try to remove a carbon spot on my own. In would do professional conservation if I really wanted it removed. I think only small ones can be mitigated.
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Carbon spots won't just rinse off. An acidic chemical dip might remove them, but probably not cleanly so there would be a lighter discolored spot left behind.
Gold coins are far more likely to exhibit copper spots than carbon spots. I’m just checking to be clear that you’re speaking about the latter?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don’t have them in hand, but they were black, or very dark.
If the coin is totally original, it could still have a lot of eye appeal with spots. Of course there are some buyers, a significant percentage who would never buy copper spot gold let alone carbon spots which tend to be smaller.
What is YOUR opinion? That is what is important.
Copper spots on gold are perfectly fine, save your $$$, skip the cacs
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I think they are part part of the history and uniqueness of the coin. During my learning process, I’ve heard more than once that some people don’t want spots. I’m not sure if it’s personal preference or that the spots get worse over time.
It’s typically a matter of the spots being distracting, not concerns about them getting worse.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agree, I don't recall seeing carbon on Gold, at least none come to mind.
My favorite: Wearing war paint
@Collect4fun IMHO stick to CAC for numismatic gold.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Sorry, I've never been a fan of copper spots on gold !!!
It's a personal preference. I pass on gold with spots.
No spot = I buy
Copper spot = I buy if I cannot find a “no spot.” Doesn’t generally slow me down too much.
Carbon spot = I wait until one of two above is available. Why spend $ on something that will nag me regardless of any slab or sticker.
If it’s bullion then it doesn’t matter.
My buying opinion.
The vast majority of gold collectors and coin dealers agree with you. I tolerate minor copper spots if they don't adversely affect eye appeal too much.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I just don't like the gold spots on my copper.
I've never seen gold spots on copper. Anyone have pics of this?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This is my best guess on carbon.
There appear to be tiny bits embedded in the gold surrounded by discoloration.
I actually think the coin is rather nice looking.
https://www.mintstategold.com/us-20-saint-gaudens-1925-pcgs-ms66-11999.html?utm_source=collectors&utm_medium=listings&utm_campaign=products
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"carbon spots" are freckles. Some have them and some don't.
They are actually naturally occurring elements waiting for their place on the periodic table.
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That isn't carbon on that 1925 Saint. Those are copper spots. They can be anywhere from light brown to black.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Did you see the tiny little round things in the center of each spot?
I've never seen anything like it before.
Interesting.
Possibly a tiny ball of copper? (I thought it might be carbon)
My Saint Set
Is this carbon?...Maybe a small copper spot?
1925-D MS65 6/2 Simpson (non CAC in case you were wondering)
My Saint Set
I am ok with copper spots... personal preference is no carbon spots....Cheers, RickO
It's not unusual for a copper spot to be much darker in the center and gradually getting lighter around the edges. Sometimes a tiny spot of debris on the surface of the coin starts a chemical reaction with the copper alloy that radiates out from the center with the color gradually getting lighter as it moves away from the center where the tiny spot of debris resides.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I once had a very rare gold coin that was CAC approved and had dark copper spot on it. I bought it because I needed the date and didn't think the spot would be an issue with me. However, It really bothered me and I could not look at anything but the spot when I looked at the coin. I realized I would never be happy with it and asked CAC for a quote---it was fair and sold it to them.
I believe they do say something about the originality of the coin, but for me copper and carbon spots will bother me. JA may be okay with them, but I am not. I am easily distracted by what I don't like and my eyes seem to be drawn to them when they are on a coin ruining the look of the coin for me. As far as removing them, I have experimented with some gold bullion and removing the dark spots tend to leave a lighter spot behind. To me it looks better, but still bothersome and I would not do it to a coin that has more than bullion value.
Donato
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One of the gold pieces I experimented on had a dark black spot. I wish I had photographed it to show the before and after, but unfortunately I did not. After a dip and rinse, the black spot was removed and underneath it revealed a light copper spot. I believe the black spots on the gold coins you are referring to are likely copper spots that have turned black with time.
Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
Successful transactions: Shrub68 (Jim), MWallace (Mike)
PCGS will downgrade your gold coin if it has copper spotting.
I don’t believe that’s necessarily the case. I’ve seen a fair number of copper-spotted PCGS gold coins whose grades did not appear to be negatively impacted. As just one example, I viewed an MS66 saint with a number of conspicuous copper spots. And it did not look like it would have been graded higher, without them.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Not a big fan of copper or carbon spots on gold. I always pass on such coins. Just a personal hangup, I guess.
Dave
That's very interesting.
No mention of the note on the cert page
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/11605850
Collector, occasional seller
I don't mind copper spots if they aren't too distracting. Sometimes they actually look cool!
There was a member on here that showed a Saint with a copper spot on the torch. That was actually really cool!
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I’m glad I said “not necessarily the case” and not “never the case”. 😄
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That example is indeed excessive
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Some spots are relatively innocent and some are The Kiss of Death (like the one posted just above). That thing has horrible eye appeal and I don’t care what the grade is. There are plenty of others to chose from.
As far as what JA likes...... in my book he’s allowed to have some personal preferences. Not everyone has to agree.
Back about 20 years ago at a Boston show I was offered a PCGS $2 1/2 or $5 Liberty, 1866-s in AU58 with a noticeable copper spot on the head. It was a tough sell, but would have been seriously discounted. I did not have the imagination to see potential value in the coin. It did not look to me as if the "spot" could be dipped off as they do now.
Okay, lots of talk here about spots. I think I need some clarification. What exactly is a carbon spot and what is a copper spot? And are they noticeably different? Different from some random debris on the surface? Do any of the 99.999 gold pieces ever spot? Funny how when we talk about silver, we call them "milk spots". And all these spots are totally different from tarnishing...right? I had a pocket piece ASE for a few years, didn't really give it any special attention, left it out on the bureau for a few years....that silver turned into all shades of dark browns/blacks, harsh tarnish, I'll never do that again!
I like it...
After looking at zillions of boring saints, I find stuff like this very interesting.
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Here's my understanding. There is a carbon spot on this San Diego silver commem. It's a bit over Liberty's belly button. As you can see, it's pretty innocuous and the coin got a green sticker. (There's another small one under Liberty's left armpit.)
A tiny bit of spittle on the surface of a silver coin will sometimes do this, and sometimes it's a bit of something else that settled on the surface and caused a little area of corrosion (toning). Sometimes it's a small impurity that was incompletely mixed in the alloy. Maybe once in a while it's even a bit of actual carbon????
Carbon spots are the color of carbon........ black. Funny thing, in reality they're probably not carbon.
There is a milk spot on this Peace dollar. It's on Liberty's neck, left of "TRVST". Again, it's pretty minimal and did not preclude a green sticker. Perhaps, perhaps this is a bit of dip residue, but it looks like a typical milk spot to me:
There is a small copper spot on this double eagle. It's very small, but it's to the right of Liberty's eye, at the very edge of the hair curl. If you look with a loupe, it's the color of copper and is not black.
Here's a coin with a much larger copper spot. This time it's on the reverse, in "MER" of "AMERICA". This coin wasn't worthy of a green sticker........ but it did get a gold sticker.
Finally, here's a Dan Carr Peace dollar strike that grew a couple of ugly spots after I bought it. If you look very carefully, there's a minuscule little black speck at the center of these growing spots. Some impurity was transferred from the die or host coin...... or who knows what. There's also a small lint strikethrough near "UR" in "PLURIBUS".
@BryceM I might be your Huckleberry if you ever tire of 1901-s $10
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Thank you @BryceM That was well answered! I found that very informative. You even went so far as to post photos...thanks again!~