distrubing news (Important)

PTVETTER

A China company named DHGate.com is selling fake 20 gram bars.
The packaging looks very good, but the thickness is wrong along with the lettering.
However the most concerning is that they pass an electronic Verifier test!
Some people are buying these and trying to pass them off as real gold bars!

Something really needs to be done to stop this!!!!!!
I have NO idea what can be done???

Kliao

The website seems to be an eBay style if I’m not mistaken

blitzdude

Thanks for the heads up but just to let you know there are truckloads of fakes that pass the "electronic verifier test" assuming you are referring to tools like the sigma and the low end Chinese xrf guns.

PTVETTER

yes blitzdude, that is what I am referring to

1630Boston

I have no idea how to stop such fraud................thanks for the info.

blitzdude

@PTVETTER said:
yes blitzdude, that is what I am referring to

Well your government talks tough on trade, stopping counterfeits and all that trash. Maybe if we could get them off the golf course and start holding them accountable to do the job they were elected to do something could be done. Until then it will only get worse. I could try tweeting but it would be deemed fake news by midnight. Be careful out there and extra careful of what you purchase. Semper Fi

MilesWaits

$400 spot gold would help.

1630Boston

@blitzdude said:

@PTVETTER said:
yes blitzdude, that is what I am referring to

. Semper Fi

Like

blitzdude

@MilesWaits said:
$400 spot gold would help.

I suspect you or I wouldn't want to live in a world with $400 gold. lol

Hydrant

@MilesWaits said:
$400 spot gold would help.

If this sort of thing continues it may very well go much lower.

OPA

Not only do they sell fake 20 gr gold bars, but also gold plated counterfeit bars, ranging in weight from 5 gr - 1 oz. I would not be surprised if all of the items listed on their web site are either cheap imitations, copies or counterfeit items.

Coin Finder

Do they weigh 20 grams?

topstuf

@Hydrant said:

@MilesWaits said:
$400 spot gold would help.

If this sort of thing continues it may very well go much lower.

The retail purchasing of "stacker" gold won't move the "spot" price one penny.

Smudge

Thanks.

AUandAG

Never buy a gold bar without removing it from it's packaging for examination and testing.
Packaging adds no value to the bar and thus subtracts no value.
bob

1Mike1

One other problem I can think of is if they use tungsten in the center it has a similar density. So weighing it isn't fool proof.

Downtown1974

I steer clear of bars just for this reason. Most gold bars lack the ornate details that coins possess which makes them a soft target for counterfeiters. It makes my blood boil though that these parasites are still producing this garbage with no recourse.

Treashunt

distrubing ?

ricko

I will stick to AGE's from the mint or known source.....Cheers, RickO

Coin Finder

The website says they are made of gold plated brass, so that's why I asked about the weight..

DelawareDoons

@thebigeng said:
The website says they are made of gold plated brass, so that's why I asked about the weight..

Yes, the weight is correct. They compensate by increasing volume.

CaptHenway

People need to learn how to do specific gravity testing again. Won’t work on the tungsten fakes, but will on everything else.

Coin Finder

So we have some idea of what can be done... Look at the thickness of a real bar vs a gold one..

braddick

Wish.com offers the same type of items. Picked up a cool looking "PCGS" 1916 quarter from them just to add to my small collection of counterfeits.

Coinstartled

Have to drill them now.

Plenty of PCGS graded Saints and Libs on the market at close to melt is the better alternative. Nothing is foolproof but that adds a couple layers of difficulty for the criminals to overcome.

ShadyDave

Exact reason why I don't buy any Silver/Gold bars anymore. PAMP bars in their blister packs are heavily counterfeited these days and they are always suspect to me since their blister packs bring premium... so people don't want to break them open to test the actual bars.

https://coinweek.com/bullion-report/counterfeit-gold-silver-beware-fake-pamp-suisse-gold-bars/

Fake bars are pervasive in all forms, so that is why I stick to things I can BETTER verify: 20 Francs, $2.5's $5's ASE's, 90% and other items that are EASIER to verify...not always foolproof, but I trust myself buying those more.

MilesWaits

Yes if I had gold bars I would be quickly liquidating them given the counterfeiting issue!
I am thankful that wasn’t my niche. And how about Platinum bars?
My niche has been PCGS graded bullion or Mint issued bullion. Or rolls of PM stuff.
My “numismatic value” has only been the occasional icing on the cake of bullion. Like with the Pd Eagles.
I see the old-timers weighing in on this thread and I think we are all on the same page.

Coinosaurus

@CaptHenway said:
People need to learn how to do specific gravity testing again. Won’t work on the tungsten fakes, but will on everything else.

It's really hard to do. I bought an expensive scientific scale and got results all over the place. If there is an easier way to do it I am all ears.

CaptHenway

@Coinosaurus said:

@CaptHenway said:
People need to learn how to do specific gravity testing again. Won’t work on the tungsten fakes, but will on everything else.

It's really hard to do. I bought an expensive scientific scale and got results all over the place. If there is an easier way to do it I am all ears.

Well, do you want the hard but effective method or fake gold? Your choice.

NSP

@Coinosaurus said:

@CaptHenway said:
People need to learn how to do specific gravity testing again. Won’t work on the tungsten fakes, but will on everything else.

It's really hard to do. I bought an expensive scientific scale and got results all over the place. If there is an easier way to do it I am all ears.

You could probably just calculate the density with the volume and mass of the bar. Most generic gold bars tend to be rectangular with radiused corners, so you could derive a formula for the volume pretty easily:

Let V = volume, t = thickness of the bar, A = area of the bar’s face, m = mass of the bar, l = length of the bar, w = width of the bar, r = radius of the corners, and a = the area lost on one corner because the corners are rounded.

a = r^2 - 0.25πr^2
a = (r^2)(1 - 0.25π)

For all four corners, the excluded area is:

4a = (4)(r^2)(1 - 0.25π) = (r^2)(4 - π)

Therefore, the bar’s face’s area is:

A = l * w - a = l * w - (r^2)(4 - π)

Multiply this by the bar’s thickness to find the bar’s volume:

V = t * A = (t)(l * w - (r^2)(4 - π))

Divide by mass to get density:

Density = (t)(l * w - (r^2)(4 - π))/m

Density = (t)(l * w + (π - 4)(r^2))/m

If you really want to get the specific gravity, you can divide by this calculated density by the density of water (1.00 g/cm^3) to get the dimensionless specific gravity.

Granted, this formula won’t account for raised features on the bar or a rim, but this formula will likely provide a better specific gravity estimate than an experimental test (assuming I didn’t mess up the formula, in which case the experiment would be more accurate).

PurpleEcho

Dang! that was just what I was about to say, but NSP beat me to it...

PerryHall

This thread has me baffled. Counterfeits coming from China have been around for a very long time. DHGate and Aliexpress are both legitimate eBay style companies that are huge and trustworthy to deal with. The problem is many of their sellers/vendors sell counterfeit goods. Of course we have the same problem with some eBay vendors. In most cases these knock-off goods are obvious because they are being sold for a small percentage of what they should cost. A 1 ounce silver bar for $2.95 should be a dead giveaway.

keets

ReadyFireAim

I used to collect raw world bullion but sold it all because I didn't trust it any longer.
Now I do "old bullion" that is encapsulated, TrueViewed & guarenteed to be genuine.

The counterfeits are just getting too good to trust a dealer or individual.

CaptHenway

@NSP said:

@Coinosaurus said:

@CaptHenway said:
People need to learn how to do specific gravity testing again. Won’t work on the tungsten fakes, but will on everything else.

It's really hard to do. I bought an expensive scientific scale and got results all over the place. If there is an easier way to do it I am all ears.

You could probably just calculate the density with the volume and mass of the bar. Most generic gold bars tend to be rectangular with radiused corners, so you could derive a formula for the volume pretty easily:

Let V = volume, t = thickness of the bar, A = area of the bar’s face, m = mass of the bar, l = length of the bar, w = width of the bar, r = radius of the corners, and a = the area lost on one corner because the corners are rounded.

a = r^2 - 0.25πr^2
a = (r^2)(1 - 0.25π)

For all four corners, the excluded area is:

4a = (4)(r^2)(1 - 0.25π) = (r^2)(4 - π)

Therefore, the bar’s face’s area is:

A = l * w - a = l * w - (r^2)(4 - π)

Multiply this by the bar’s thickness to find the bar’s volume:

V = t * A = (t)(l * w - (r^2)(4 - π))

Divide by mass to get density:

Density = (t)(l * w - (r^2)(4 - π))/m

Density = (t)(l * w + (π - 4)(r^2))/m

If you really want to get the specific gravity, you can divide by this calculated density by the density of water (1.00 g/cm^3) to get the dimensionless specific gravity.

Granted, this formula won’t account for raised features on the bar or a rim, but this formula will likely provide a better specific gravity estimate than an experimental test (assuming I didn’t mess up the formula, in which case the experiment would be more accurate).

Or you can just do it the easy way, with an Ohaus scale and a beaker of water.

Or you can just get fooled and lose all your money.

Take your pick.

NSP

@NSP said:

@Coinosaurus said:

@CaptHenway said:
People need to learn how to do specific gravity testing again. Won’t work on the tungsten fakes, but will on everything else.

It's really hard to do. I bought an expensive scientific scale and got results all over the place. If there is an easier way to do it I am all ears.

You could probably just calculate the density with the volume and mass of the bar. Most generic gold bars tend to be rectangular with radiused corners, so you could derive a formula for the volume pretty easily:

Let V = volume, t = thickness of the bar, A = area of the bar’s face, m = mass of the bar, l = length of the bar, w = width of the bar, r = radius of the corners, and a = the area lost on one corner because the corners are rounded.

a = r^2 - 0.25πr^2
a = (r^2)(1 - 0.25π)

For all four corners, the excluded area is:

4a = (4)(r^2)(1 - 0.25π) = (r^2)(4 - π)

Therefore, the bar’s face’s area is:

A = l * w - a = l * w - (r^2)(4 - π)

Multiply this by the bar’s thickness to find the bar’s volume:

V = t * A = (t)(l * w - (r^2)(4 - π))

Divide by mass to get density:

Density = (t)(l * w - (r^2)(4 - π))/m

Density = (t)(l * w + (π - 4)(r^2))/m

If you really want to get the specific gravity, you can divide by this calculated density by the density of water (1.00 g/cm^3) to get the dimensionless specific gravity.

Granted, this formula won’t account for raised features on the bar or a rim, but this formula will likely provide a better specific gravity estimate than an experimental test (assuming I didn’t mess up the formula, in which case the experiment would be more accurate).

Edit: density is mass/volume, but I did volume/mass. I can’t believe I messed that up, but that’s what happens when you try to do math at night without checking it. The correct formula should be:

Density = m/[(t)(l * w + (π - 4)(r^2))]

CaptHenway

An old thread I did on how to do a specific gravity.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/842687/tutorial-on-how-to-do-specific-gravity

ShadyDave

@PerryHall said:
DHGate and Aliexpress are both legitimate eBay style companies that are huge and trustworthy to deal with.

I disagree 100%. I don't think DHGate and Aliexpress are legitimate companies. They started off by selling counterfeit items and a large portion of their current sales are still driven off of counterfeit items. They should have never been allowed by the SEC to list a "shell company" on the NYSE when they make $$$ selling counterfeit goods... most people who own BABA shares probably don't even know they're not invested in the actual company, LOL!

https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/gold-coins.html

https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/silver-coins.html

Does a legitimate company openly sell counterfeit US currency? Doing a 5 second google search gets results for tungsten modern gold and silver eagles.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Wholesale-professional-metal-souvenir-liberty-eagle_62062742526.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.201.21003c6c7caiAl

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/American-Eagle-Tungsten-Gold-Coin-Military_60798744861.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.65.1c591d1eIXnmHv

Someone should class-action them, cause its pervasive on aliexpress in many items. Here is a famous reddit thread on what you get when you buy 1TB external HD's from Alibaba:

https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/47c2qe/when_you_buy_a_1tb_hard_disk_from_china_but_its/

CoinPhysicist

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. As I understand gold counterfeiting, it is impossible to make a perfect counterfeit that passes both the physical size and weight requirement and the electrical resistivity requirement. It's possible to make a counterfeit that will pass either of those, but not both because the only material that has both the density of gold and the conductivity of gold is... gold.

Correct?

bronco2078

@ReadyFireAim said:
I used to collect raw world bullion but sold it all because I didn't trust it any longer.
Now I do "old bullion" that is encapsulated, TrueViewed & guarenteed to be genuine.

The counterfeits are just getting too good to trust a dealer or individual.

this makes no sense , if its raw you just touch it and you can tell. If its slabbed its overpriced and the packaging could be fake

bronco2078

@CoinPhysicist said:
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. As I understand gold counterfeiting, it is impossible to make a perfect counterfeit that passes both the physical size and weight requirement and the electrical resistivity requirement. It's possible to make a counterfeit that will pass either of those, but not both because the only material that has both the density of gold and the conductivity of gold is... gold.

Correct?

sure thats why packaged bars are idiotic . The packaging is there to disguise the dimensions being wrong.

sheep shear themselves all the time

blitzdude

@bronco2078 said:

@CoinPhysicist said:
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. As I understand gold counterfeiting, it is impossible to make a perfect counterfeit that passes both the physical size and weight requirement and the electrical resistivity requirement. It's possible to make a counterfeit that will pass either of those, but not both because the only material that has both the density of gold and the conductivity of gold is... gold.

Correct?

sure thats why packaged bars are idiotic . The packaging is there to disguise the dimensions being wrong.

sheep shear themselves all the time

Perhaps the same could be said for a slab? I would say it's easier to pass a fake coin in a fake slab then it is to pass a raw fake coin.

cohodk

1100 views to this thread in less than 48 hours. There are a lot of lurkers out there.

bronco2078

@blitzdude said:

@bronco2078 said:

@CoinPhysicist said:
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. As I understand gold counterfeiting, it is impossible to make a perfect counterfeit that passes both the physical size and weight requirement and the electrical resistivity requirement. It's possible to make a counterfeit that will pass either of those, but not both because the only material that has both the density of gold and the conductivity of gold is... gold.

Correct?

sure thats why packaged bars are idiotic . The packaging is there to disguise the dimensions being wrong.

sheep shear themselves all the time

Perhaps the same could be said for a slab? I would say it's easier to pass a fake coin in a fake slab then it is to pass a raw fake coin.

agree but I'd say slabbed bullion is even stupider than packaged bars.

Enclosing an identifiable coin in plastic removes any advantage to buying things because you recognize them

Ever see a 20 year old riding a bike with training wheels ? The whole point is to acquire the knowledge so you don't need to rely on others expertise.

If you threw a fake sovereign at me I'd know it because I have handled so many of them. pesos , 20 francs , ducats whatever. I could lay it on the desk next to one I have lying around and say its bigger! its thicker! it rings different!

now could I tell if you had altered the date or mintmark? probably not but why would I care ? I pay melt +x% or - x% I don't care what year it is when I buy it. If I decide to look it up and think , this is rarer or whatever then I might try to upsell it. I'm never going to upBUY it though , I just move on.

The idea is to stop thinking like a mark .

Every supposed type of protection or insurance a seller offers to comfort you is actually the path for them to rip you off. Even if they are 100% honest that won't mean the next guy is , it won't mean the guy trying to buy it from you will be safer. He doesn't know who you bought it from why should he even care?

The slab encourages stupid thinking on your part anyway. Somewhere in your mind the seed of wrong-think is planted. "this is worth a premium , duhhhh because plastic" No it really isn't , it never is, its bullion , the fool that paid to get it slabbed is an idiot , I played along , I'm an idiot too , and now I need the next fool to be an idiot too.

ShadyDave

To bronco’s point:

On top of all what he said, slabbed eagles and other garbage take up too much space in a safe/SDB.