@MFeld said:
I saw what was written. Surely you know that what is written with respect to grading "standards", is by no means. always practiced/followed.
This is certainly true. That doesn't, however, mean that they are unknowable. I find it really hard to believe that even a mark-free 3-legged Buffalo would grade 70.
But look at the broader picture. If you are saying that strike weakness is irrelevant to grading, then the distinction between gem grades becomes very different.
In some sense, it is a moot point, at least with the 3-legged Buffalo. But the more common implication would be for commonly weakly struck coins like O mint Morgans. Can you really have an MS69 Morgan that has virtually no feathers on the eagle's breast and no hair visible above the ear?
I just looked at the PCGS population report, and it looks like they have never graded ANY Buffalo Nickel MS-70 or even MS-69.
So far as I'm concerned, a die that was in the condition that the 1937-D Three Legged die was could not strike an MS-70 grade coin. It lacks the detail by definition. The MS-66+ coin that is featured in "Coin Facts" looks to be as good as it gets to me.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@MFeld said:
I saw what was written. Surely you know that what is written with respect to grading "standards", is by no means. always practiced/followed.
This is certainly true. That doesn't, however, mean that they are unknowable. I find it really hard to believe that even a mark-free 3-legged Buffalo would grade 70.
But look at the broader picture. If you are saying that strike weakness is irrelevant to grading, then the distinction between gem grades becomes very different.
In some sense, it is a moot point, at least with the 3-legged Buffalo. But the more common implication would be for commonly weakly struck coins like O mint Morgans. Can you really have an MS69 Morgan that has virtually no feathers on the eagle's breast and no hair visible above the ear?
I've already addressed this, and your point in the previous post. The "weak strike" is considered in comparison to other coins of that issue. Whether "other coins of that issue" for normal circulation coinage such as Morgans means other coins of that specific date and mintmark, or other coins of that entire type, is up to PCGS. But when you're considering a 3-legged Buffalo, you're comparing the strike against other 3-legged Buffalos (and it's not strike weakness anyway, but an overly polished die, as stated before). By our current standards there can theoretically be any grade of any type of coin, but that does not mean that a) such a coin exists, or b) that if such a coin exists, it will be given that grade. End of story.
Much was lost when "Grading" changed from the study of what has happened to a coin from the moment it was struck (Technical Grading) to the calculating of what a coin is worth (Market Grading). This is part of the reason why a PF-40 1804 Dollar is now slabbed as a PF-58.
A theoretically perfect three-legged nickel, with all the detail that a three-legged nickel could possibly have, is possible per the OP's question. By technical grading standards the coin could be graded as an MS-70. Your mileage may vary.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said: "Much was lost when "Grading" changed from the study of what has happened to a coin from the moment it was struck (Technical Grading) to the calculating of what a coin is worth (Market Grading)."
This change was made by coin dealers! Technical grading is easy to understand, easy to teach, logical, and VERY PRECISE. Therefore, it does not change over time if the coin stays in the same condition. Dealers did not like the fact that coins they were grading MS were actually AU's. Once a coin's value became a part of the grading process only knowledgeable, up to the hour, market watchers (mostly major coin dealers and market makers) could determine what a coin was worth (its commercial grade at that time). These are the folks who started PCGS and later NGC and captured practically all of the authentication/grading business in a very short amount of time.
It is still easy to teach all the basics that go into a coin's grade EXCEPT for its value. That takes major study but it pays big dividends when you can do it when a coin is either raw or slabbed.
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This is certainly true. That doesn't, however, mean that they are unknowable. I find it really hard to believe that even a mark-free 3-legged Buffalo would grade 70.
But look at the broader picture. If you are saying that strike weakness is irrelevant to grading, then the distinction between gem grades becomes very different.
In some sense, it is a moot point, at least with the 3-legged Buffalo. But the more common implication would be for commonly weakly struck coins like O mint Morgans. Can you really have an MS69 Morgan that has virtually no feathers on the eagle's breast and no hair visible above the ear?
I just looked at the PCGS population report, and it looks like they have never graded ANY Buffalo Nickel MS-70 or even MS-69.
So far as I'm concerned, a die that was in the condition that the 1937-D Three Legged die was could not strike an MS-70 grade coin. It lacks the detail by definition. The MS-66+ coin that is featured in "Coin Facts" looks to be as good as it gets to me.
I've already addressed this, and your point in the previous post. The "weak strike" is considered in comparison to other coins of that issue. Whether "other coins of that issue" for normal circulation coinage such as Morgans means other coins of that specific date and mintmark, or other coins of that entire type, is up to PCGS. But when you're considering a 3-legged Buffalo, you're comparing the strike against other 3-legged Buffalos (and it's not strike weakness anyway, but an overly polished die, as stated before). By our current standards there can theoretically be any grade of any type of coin, but that does not mean that a) such a coin exists, or b) that if such a coin exists, it will be given that grade. End of story.
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Much was lost when "Grading" changed from the study of what has happened to a coin from the moment it was struck (Technical Grading) to the calculating of what a coin is worth (Market Grading). This is part of the reason why a PF-40 1804 Dollar is now slabbed as a PF-58.
A theoretically perfect three-legged nickel, with all the detail that a three-legged nickel could possibly have, is possible per the OP's question. By technical grading standards the coin could be graded as an MS-70. Your mileage may vary.
@CaptHenway said: "Much was lost when "Grading" changed from the study of what has happened to a coin from the moment it was struck (Technical Grading) to the calculating of what a coin is worth (Market Grading)."
This change was made by coin dealers! Technical grading is easy to understand, easy to teach, logical, and VERY PRECISE. Therefore, it does not change over time if the coin stays in the same condition. Dealers did not like the fact that coins they were grading MS were actually AU's. Once a coin's value became a part of the grading process only knowledgeable, up to the hour, market watchers (mostly major coin dealers and market makers) could determine what a coin was worth (its commercial grade at that time). These are the folks who started PCGS and later NGC and captured practically all of the authentication/grading business in a very short amount of time.
It is still easy to teach all the basics that go into a coin's grade EXCEPT for its value. That takes major study but it pays big dividends when you can do it when a coin is either raw or slabbed.