What's the highest grade possible for a 3-legged Buffalo?
jmlanzaf
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Heritage has a gorgeous MS-66+ CAC for sale at the FUN show auction. It made me wonder, what's the highest grade possible when you've polished off a piece of a key feature of the coin?
What's the highest grade possible for a 3-legged Buffalo?
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
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Comments
Note that two posters who graded coins professionally long before MS?PR-70 was ever used INDEPENDENTLY came up with the same grade that a "technically" perfect coin could reach BECAUSE - that coin would have left the press without a leg AS STRUCK. That's why long ago a fully struck virtually perfect coin (back then 65 was the highest grade) could be graded exactly the same as a virtually flatly struck coin - MS-65! That's the way each coin was made. The fact that the coins were worth different prices on the commercial market did not influence the coin's as struck condition.
Therefore, in this hypothetical discussion, I respectfully DISAGREE with anyone posting a grade lower than MS-70 and look forward to reading a defense of their very informed opinions.
With all due respect, I don't know that it is that simple. At least not to me.
Strike is an issue in gem grades. Eye appeal is an issue. I'm not so sure that JUST ANYTHING goes on the die with no affect on the grade.
But, I'm torn, which is why I asked the question.
As struck from the mint should be MS-70 from a technical point of view. Given that grading nowadays is a market grade, and not strictly technical, I’d imagine there would be some form of cap that a reputable TPG would assign. Maybe 66 or 67?
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Hmmm... good question. If the 3-legged Buff can get to MS70, then a 1922 Plain Lincoln Cent should too... regardless of Strong or Weak Reverse... right?
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Yes.
The way I understand it is that a fully stuck coin as it left the die is a 70 whatever the condition of the die.
The problem arises when one tries to assign a market price to such a coin grade MS 70. An MS 68 3 leg struck from heavily polished dies would sell for far more than an MS 68 coin struck from full detail 1937 nickel dies for obvious reasons to me but what would newcomer outsiders think ?
But it's the "fully struck" part that gives me slight pause. What if it's a grease-filled die?
@jmlanzaf said: "With all due respect, I don't know that it is that simple. At least not to me. Strike is an issue in gem grades. Eye appeal is an issue. I'm not so sure that JUST ANYTHING goes on the die with no affect on the grade. But, I'm torn, which is why I asked the question.
Say is isn't so....you have made something that is extremely simple into an extended discussion.
Your QUESTION: "What's the highest grade possible for a 3-legged Buffalo?"
The ONLY Answer: 70.
Why: because in order to attain the "highest grade" the coin would need to be perfect. That eliminates everything you mentioned like eye appeal, strike, planchet flaws, etc.
Now, what about the missing leg? Well the coin would not be a 3-leg specimen if it were present. Therefore, a perfect MS-70 could exist for that variety when teaching folks how to grade.
Try this: More than 30% of MS-70 SE are actually not perfect because tiny MINT MADE DEFECTS (like the over-polished die in your example) and tiny spots (no longer covered by a grading guarantee) are tolerated!
This to; What technically graded 3-leg nickel would be worth more in the commercial market? It is not a correctly graded 67, 68, or 69 or any of the pluses or stars. EASY - It is the correctly graded MS-70!
Are you actually telling me to ignore strike in assigning a 70? Or is it just ambiguous sentence construction where you're trying to say that if you have perfect strike it's a 70?
There was an artificial cap on coin grading until around (? 1998, 1999, 20000 when grads like 69 and 70 started to be used. Decades ago there were no 70's! In fact, when I started grading MS-65 was the highest a coin could grade even if it were perfect.
What if I rephrase the question?
Is it possible to get a full, sharp strike from a worn, polished die?
Sorry, I'm not going to waste any more time with you! I believe my posts have been watered down enough (suitable for a YN in Basic grading 101) that I cannot be any clearer. Perfect coins of any type can THEORETICALLY EXIST. Perfect coins are considered to be 70's. You asked about a 3-leg nickel. Go look up what is needed for an MS-70 grade with regard to strike. Just because this is NOT FOLLOWED TO THE LETTER in every case does not change the definition of a 70!
Would that coin be considered for a highest grade - either in actuality or in THIS fanciful DISCUSSION!
who thinks he has a 1958 DDO. 
LOL, I feel like I'm posting with the newbie
YOU posted the discussion. You got the answer.
The definition of a 70 REQUIRES A FULL, SHARP STRIKE. That seems impossible (to ignorant little old YN me) with a worn, heavily polished die.
And, I'm not the only one:
https://reedededge.com/components-grading-mint-state-coins/
You really missed your true calling. You should have been a teacher. LMFAO
A perfect strike right out of the dies before it's dropped into the bit bucket could still be a 70. Even with a leg polished off, it's still can be perfect from the dies that were used...Once it's in a bucket/bag it "may" get bag marks. Once it's stored it can be environmentally damaged (toned/tarnished) and is no longer a 70 (IMO)
I voted "70" because anything can happen in the grading room, and;
I don't have a leg to stand on
From our hosts:
https://pcgs.com/news/strike-wear-grading-tips
I highlight the following:
One of the most difficult nuances in grading high-grade coins is detecting the difference in a weak strike, and light wear. Often to the untrained eye they appear quite similar – a lack of detail in the high points of the coin. However the difference in the grade is substantial for the coin can either be circulated or mint state. (Weakly struck uncirculated coins seldom grade above MS64.)
What causes weakly struck coins? The most frequent cause is a worn die. As a die is used, the sharp details are slowly flattened, so that by the end of the die's life, the fine details are often gone. Other reasons for poor strikes are inadequate striking pressure in the coining press, and on earlier coins, irregularities in the planchets or blanks can contribute to irregular or weakly struck coins. The spacing of the dies is also important – too far apart will cause a weak strike, but longer die life. Too close will create a sharp strike, but will shorten die life.
Since @insider2 is checking out of the discussion: if "fine details" being gone due to wear restrict a coin to MS64, how is it possible that "fine details" being gone due to wear and polishing allow a coin to be an MS70?
Anyone?
@jmlanzaf said: "You really missed your true calling. You should have been a teacher. LMFAO
Something I really enjoy. I wish you had been to one of my classes. You would better understand what I posted.
Perhaps if two long-time Professionals and several members would have read your question differently you would have gotten a different answer to the poll - more to your liking.
I've seen strongly struck 3-leg nickels in my very limited and very short career. Just about all of them (even the gems) have some weakness. Anything over 65 is probably very rare and costly so I'll guess 68, 68+, or perhaps even a 69 might exist somewhere. So there CAN NEVER BE a perfect 3-leg coin inREAL LIFE!
@jmlanzaf posted: "One of the most difficult nuances in grading high-grade coins is detecting the difference in a weak strike, and light wear. Often to the untrained eye they appear quite similar – a lack of detail in the high points of the coin. However the difference in the grade is substantial for the coin can either be circulated or mint state."
LOL. I've learned not to believe everything I read. This was probably written by someone before coins that were formerly graded AU are now commonly graded in the low MS ranges.
I ain't buying any 70's.
I remember. Anything above 65 was exceedingly rare. But the prices of the coins certainly varied a lot. Personally, the Sheldon grading system wasn’t designed for the modern era. I don’t know what the right answer is but a completely different grading scheme is really needed now.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
I agree,,,, MS70 is the highest grade possible for a 3-Leg Buffalo Nickel. MS70 is also the highest grade possible for any Mint State coin.
However just because it is possible doesn't mean that it exists. By the same token just because one hasn't been graded YET doesn't mean that it does not exist.
I remember when NO MS70 coins existed and then WALL-AHHHHH MS70 coins started appearing. The 1st MS70 coins I made were the Wright Bros Half Dollars. I made 6 or 7 of them on one submission.
If a 70 must be fully struck and it is impossible to get a full strike from a worn, heavily polished die, how is it possible to ever get a 70?
If you actually read the link, you would see it was written in 2012 by Mike Sherman in "Tips from the Grading Room" at PCGS.
This variety rarely shows great luster due to the nature of the die that struck it, so that alone would limit the top attainable grade.
I agree with @insider2.
I’ve seen coins with less than “full strikes” and/or less than blazing luster, graded at least as high as 68. My answer is
hypothetically MS70, but realistically (even though incredibly unlikely) MS68.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You're confusing weak strike and overpolishing of dies. Weak strike refers to the strength at which an individual coin was struck against the dies. Overpolishing of the dies is just that, overpolishing of the dies. in other words, one is planchet-based and one is die-based. You can have a strongly struck overpolished die, because those two things are not related. You can also have a weakly detailed die that is strongly struck, or a strongly detailed die that is weakly struck. What if the original design of the Buffalo nickel was to have three legs with one polished out? Could you have an MS70? Of course.
The "weak strike" you're referring to when saying that it may affect the grades of coins above MS64, means "weakly struck planchets or worn dies, in comparison to normal coins of that issue". When looking at three-legged Buffalos, normal coins of that issue are other three-legged Buffalos, because it is a variety.
As for grease-filled dies, that's something entirely different (an error), and while yes, theoretically there COULD be an MS70 grease-filled die, it just would be very difficult to grade a coin as such because there would by nature be very few surface details to work with when determining the grade.
For the record, there are currently exactly ZERO coins graded MS70 by PCGS that were released for circulation. The oldest PCGS PR70 (not DCAM), I believe, belongs to a few 1960 Roosevelt dimes. There was once a 2003 cent in MS70, but it was downgraded later. This is not to say any circulation coinage cannot receive grades of MS70 (theoretically any date and issue can), but that PCGS will likely avoid assigning the grade to any.
@jmlanzaf @Insider2
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
You can't have a strongly struck overpolished die when the polishing has removed design elements.
So, your thesis is that if I polish a die enough to dull the strike, the coin maxxes at 64 but then if I keep polishing the die until I've lost a leg, then it is a variety that grades 70. Doesn't that strike anyone as somewhat illogical?
70 for sure.
You're not interpreting what I wrote as I wrote it.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
I think you can. Why do “strongly struck” and fully detailed need to be synonymous?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Correct, they're not synonymous. As I wrote, one is planchet-based and one is die-based.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
LOL, give "gradflation" a chance. YOU are a (long time & very experienced ?) coin dealer. I'm certain that you remember a time when a Morgan dollar w/o fully struck hair lines over the ear due to various reasons and various mints COULD NOT BE GRADED OVER MS-64!
That "standard" is long gone.
YOU WIN! A COMMERCIALLY GRADED coin of any date, mint, or type cannot grade MS-70 if it is not fully struck.
Ah, except for Silver Eagles. LOL.
@jmlanzaf posted: "You can't have a strongly struck overpolished die when the polishing has removed design elements. So, your thesis is that if I polish a die enough to dull the strike, the coin maxxes at 64 but then if I keep polishing the die until I've lost a leg, then it is a variety that grades 70. Doesn't that strike anyone as somewhat illogical?
LOL, NEWS FLASH for all experienced numismatists who have become successful in the commercial marketplace while skipping BASIC COIN GRADING THEORY as being discussed here...
There is nothing "LOGICAL" about commercial or "net" coin grading - NOTHING!
Ah, there MUST BE something but I cannot think of it at the moment.
Maybe, but it conflicts with the PCGS paper.
At the risk of being pedantic ... the Sheldon 'grading system' was designed specifically for 1794 Large cents in the second quartile of the 20th century. It was an attempt to correlate a coin's selling price with the generally accepted grades from 'well-known' Large cent dealers and auction houses.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Pffft. Seems to me that was an Old wive’s tale. It wasn’t over polished - it was lapped thus removing the lowest relief feature. But do carry on - there are too many electrons in the world anyway ...
My Morgans don't get credit when missing hair details or breast feathers are gone, missing or polished off by the mint.
66+
The concept that anything hot off of the mint's press should be a MS70 is beyond the pale. Even freshly encapsulated slabs are 60-70% 69 and only the remainder 70's. In fact I own a few PR68 DCAM which are fresh from the Mint. So, to think that a coin minted in 1937 can have the lack of minting imperfections of modern coins should limit the maximum grade to 67. Top grade now is 66+. Top Pop Buffs are 69 max. and probably only in proof.
Realistically, a MS coin should never have a technical grade higher than a PR coin. This would obviously limit the grade on MS coins to 68-69 max even for modern coins. The technical grade should not be based upon the assumption of perfection "as minted". PR coins will always be 1-2 points above a MS coin.
OINK
Exactly.
My guess is that your Morgans are not otherwise nearly perfect and that the missing detail might not play as large of a role as you assume.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
PCGS' Mike Sherman wrote:
** (Weakly struck uncirculated coins seldom grade above MS64.)**
Published grading guidelines includes strength of strike above 65 as a key element. One of several reasons cited for weak strikes are worn dies where the fine details are lost. Again, per Mike Sherman:
As a die is used, the sharp details are slowly flattened, so that by the end of the die's life, the fine details are often gone
That makes it impossible, despite the prevailing winds on this thread, for a heavily worn die with minimal fine details to result in a grade of 70. Arguably, it should be hard to be above 66.
I can find it nowhere in anyone's grading guidelines that you can "fully strike" with a die that lacks details.
The argument, as presented by many here, would seem to suggest the following scenario:
[Let us assume there is a clear way to distinguish the two scenarios by looking at the coin.]
The "degree of preservation" is the sole criteria below gem grade. At gem or above, luster and strength of strike become critical components of grading.
And you're ignoring PCGS' words on the subject. While it might help you to think of the polishing and the strike as being unrelated - planchet-based vs. die-based - that is not strictly true. One of the reason PCGS cites for a weak strike is the flattening of the die from use. Again, quoting from the Mike Sherman article:
"What causes weakly struck coins? The most frequent cause is a worn die. As a die is used, the sharp details are slowly flattened, so that by the end of the die's life, the fine details are often gone. Other reasons for poor strikes are inadequate striking pressure in the coining press, and on earlier coins, irregularities in the planchets or blanks can contribute to irregular or weakly struck coins. The spacing of the dies is also important – too far apart will cause a weak strike, but longer die life. Too close will create a sharp strike, but will shorten die life."
Note, he specifically says that THE MOST FREQUENT CAUSE [of a weak strike] is a worn die where the "FINE DETAILS ARE OFTEN GONE". He then cites "other reasons" that can include striking pressure, alignment, etc.
That suggests, contrary to the assertion of the self-assured stubborn individuals on this thread, that loss of detail (like, say a leg) results in a "weakly struck" coin no matter how hard you smash the dies together. As such, that should limit the grade of any coin struck from such worn dies to a maximum grade somewhere below 70.
I saw what was written. Surely you know that what is written with respect to grading "standards", is by no means. always practiced/followed.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@heatherboyd @BrettPCGS
Can PCGS weigh in on their standard here? Is it possible to get an MS70 coin from a heavily worn die lacking fine details? The Mike Sherman article from 2012 implies but does not explicitly state that a worn die should be grade limited because its strength of strike is limited.
As some wag in the software industry once said: "The great thing about standards is there are so many to choose from". Furthermore, they evolve and are revised. I've seen top pop Roosevelt dimes graded MS68 with strike weakness, FWIW.
I know, that’s why it needs to be replaced.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars