This possibility has been talked about on the forum for at least a few years and is now a reality. Sort of like chipping the newly adopted cat, I guess. Most here like the idea. I probably will as well after thinking about it for a while. Seems like a huge step towards security, with little or no downside, though I still here Ben Franklin whispering in my ear..,
@gtstang said:
Can any of the chips to be used have location technology added that can be accessed by the manufacturer and/or PCGS for anti theft protection?
No, but they could be a tool in recovering stolen property if our hosts implemented a stolen item registry that would alert someone scanning a coin that was reported stolen.
Good thing, but it if it is only at the Gold Service level, it is generally directed at high end coins. Most slabs with collector coins from say $250 to $3,000 value, won't have them then. How about adding an option for say, $10 more for regular service with chip added?
so many great questions and answers
I thinks that this is a very positive way of enhancing coin / slab security
I think that I will treat this as I do in buying a new car release: wait until the "bugs" are worked out and then go all in!
Now to research the cost of having my special coins re-slabbed with this feature.
@Batman23 said:
Interesting advancements. Some great questions already asked. A couple other questions come to mind reading through these.
Will they help cause wildly vivid toning to the coins in the holder
More realistically, since this is authenticated through your device (Which will likely have GPS technology) to the cloud for the verification... will there be a database holding each of these scans and the location of this scan? I could see this as a possible way to track physical locations of certain coins, how long certain coins are dormant, or more importantly when and where stolen coins are scanned. A lot of possibilities here, some better than others.
Good question - NFC chips CAN incorporate geolocation - but it's mostly tied into the app, but you would have had to grant permission to this. The release says if you scan a slab, it will automatically launch the PCGS Cert Verification App. I don't remember when I installed the app what permissions it asked for, if you see an updated app and it now asks for that, I would guess it is tracking.
For the older phones that can't do this natively, which the release says will require a 3rd party app - I guess it would be up to that app.
Guess the underlying question is are the slab chips enabled for this, and if so - how is this data stored within PCGS. Might be good for them to monitor this to see if a ton of scans from say... China start appearing, or as you mentioned, stolen coins.
They could also use this data to attempt to locate "Recalled" coins or god forbid I scan a coin and start getting e-mails for offers to buy the coin lol.
@spacehayduke said:
Good thing, but it if it is only at the Gold Service level, it is generally directed at high end coins. Most slabs with collector coins from say $250 to $3,000 value, won't have them then. How about adding an option for say, $10 more for regular service with chip added?
Best, SH
You can pay $5 per coin to add the Gold Shield service to any service level.
@Batman23 said:
Interesting advancements. Some great questions already asked. A couple other questions come to mind reading through these.
Will they help cause wildly vivid toning to the coins in the holder
More realistically, since this is authenticated through your device (Which will likely have GPS technology) to the cloud for the verification... will there be a database holding each of these scans and the location of this scan? I could see this as a possible way to track physical locations of certain coins, how long certain coins are dormant, or more importantly when and where stolen coins are scanned. A lot of possibilities here, some better than others.
Good question - NFC chips CAN incorporate geolocation - but it's mostly tied into the app, but you would have had to grant permission to this. The release says if you scan a slab, it will automatically launch the PCGS Cert Verification App. I don't remember when I installed the app what permissions it asked for, if you see an updated app and it now asks for that, I would guess it is tracking.
For the older phones that can't do this natively, which the release says will require a 3rd party app - I guess it would be up to that app.
Guess the underlying question is are the slab chips enabled for this, and if so - how is this data stored within PCGS. Might be good for them to monitor this to see if a ton of scans from say... China start appearing, or as you mentioned, stolen coins.
They could also use this data to attempt to locate "Recalled" coins or god forbid I scan a coin and start getting e-mails for offers to buy the coin lol.
The Cert Verification app currently does not and will not request your location for the scanning to work.
And to clarify: The PCGS Cert Verification app can act as the "3rd party app" as it will have a scan button. The difference is between newer phones that are always able to scan from anywhere in the background vs older phones which require an app to "enable" the scanning. The Cert Verification app will support both so you do not need to download an additional app. Most Android phones support background scanning, on iOS only much more recent phones support background scanning.
@spacehayduke said:
Good thing, but it if it is only at the Gold Service level, it is generally directed at high end coins. Most slabs with collector coins from say $250 to $3,000 value, won't have them then. How about adding an option for say, $10 more for regular service with chip added?
Best, SH
At only $5 per coin Gold Shield is a good value even if just for the imaging. I add it to most of my submissions and all have been in the $250-3000 range. This is just one more reason to add it to any submission at the regular service level.
I do agree that an option to add it to a single coin in a submission would be nice to have.
Need a little help here.
If I send in a coin for reholdering ( not for regrading) with the Gold Shield and the new chip security feature
my cost per coin would be:
1) insured sending shipping cost
2) a separate submission fee???
3) reholdering fee of $12.00 + $5.00 for the Gold Shield holder with new chip and
4) return insured shipping cost
Is this correct and is there a discount if I submit "X" number of coins at the same time with the same above criteria?
Thx in advance
I'm going to assume, yeah I know the saying that goes along when you say assume, that the bar code / QR code method of coin details will remain active with the PCGS Coin Cert Verification App.
The Cert Verification App makes that confirmation process much easier and much faster. Rather than typing in the coin’s certification number, simply scan the bar code (obverse) or QR code (reverse) found on the coin label.
It is a big, or even biggggger step forward, an excellent advancement and very impressive. However, how long do you think will it take our hated "friends" from the PRoC (or perhaps an other country) to come up with effective counter measures? Just like CC counterfeits...
I believe this technology, even new and best now for the application, will soon be old and vulnerable. Just MO.
@WAYNEAS said:
Need a little help here.
If I send in a coin for reholdering ( not for regrading) with the Gold Shield and the new chip security feature
my cost per coin would be:
1) insured sending shipping cost
2) a separate submission fee???
3) reholdering fee of $12.00 + $5.00 for the Gold Shield holder with new chip and
4) return insured shipping cost
Is this correct and is there a discount if I submit "X" number of coins at the same time with the same above criteria?
Thx in advance
The only "discount" for sending multiple coins for Gold Shield Reholder would be amortizing the costs of items #1, #2, and #4 across more coins. Barring a Quarterly Collector's Club special, #3 is a fixed cost per coin. Item #2 is a flat $10 charge for an order of any size. Shipping (#1 and #4) increases with more coins and higher total value, but per coin you save good money on a larger order. You can eliminate #1 altogether by dropping the coins off with PCGS at a show.
@WAYNEAS said:
Need a little help here.
If I send in a coin for reholdering ( not for regrading) with the Gold Shield and the new chip security feature
my cost per coin would be:
1) insured sending shipping cost
2) a separate submission fee???
3) reholdering fee of $12.00 + $5.00 for the Gold Shield holder with new chip and
4) return insured shipping cost
Is this correct and is there a discount if I submit "X" number of coins at the same time with the same above criteria?
Thx in advance
The only "discount" for sending multiple coins for Gold Shield Reholder would be amortizing the costs of items #1, #2, and #4 across more coins. Barring a Quarterly Collector's Club special, #3 is a fixed cost per coin. Item #2 is a flat $10 charge for an order of any size. Shipping (#1 and #4) increases with more coins and higher total value, but per coin you save good money on a larger order. You can eliminate #1 altogether by dropping the coins off with PCGS at a show.
This chip tech is scheduled to roll out in the Spring 2020, starting with our Gold Shield products. Why just Gold Shield? Simply put, between Coins, Cards, and Banknotes Collectors Universe holders about five million collectibles globally each year! While rolling out a massive, global chip integration all at once didn't seem practical, the target is to eventually integrate NFC chip technology into all coin and banknote holders on a move forward basis by 2021.
This has been a years long project by both our IT and marketing staffs and i couldn't be prouder of how this product is shaping up and the massive benefits it will have for PCGS customers. Thanks!
@spacehayduke said:
Good thing, but it if it is only at the Gold Service level, it is generally directed at high end coins. Most slabs with collector coins from say $250 to $3,000 value, won't have them then. How about adding an option for say, $10 more for regular service with chip added?
Best, SH
At only $5 per coin Gold Shield is a good value even if just for the imaging. I add it to most of my submissions and all have been in the $250-3000 range. This is just one more reason to add it to any submission at the regular service level.
I do agree that an option to add it to a single coin in a submission would be nice to have.
Did not know this until this thread. Thanks for clarification. I will start adding Gold Shield. So the chip for only $5 is worth it for sure.
One weakness here could be counterfeit slabs with NFC chips sending you to a spoof website that looks just like PCGS cert page. Most folks don’t look at the URL. Not much anyone could do other than try to get the fake page taken down which is difficult. Maybe on grounds of copyright infringement if images were borrowed.
Edit to add, great move, I’m a big fan, thank you for continuing to battle counterfeits in the market PCGS.
It's great that this is now happening, the bad part of this is having slabs coming out of PCGS without a chip.
If your going to fight counterfeit slabs your going to need every holder to have a chip, even if it only confirms the basic information.
Is there any plans to have some kind of chip verification for every slab going out?
On BS&T Now: Nothing. Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up! Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
@Texast said:
It's great that this is now happening, the bad part of this is having slabs coming out of PCGS without a chip.
If your going to fight counterfeit slabs your going to need every holder to have a chip, even if it only confirms the basic information.
Is there any plans to have some kind of chip verification for every slab going out?
Yes. Scroll up a little.
Ok I missed this part, it did not stand out as a comment from a moderator, maybe getting a highlighted line in the header of the comment would grab the attention of the reader.
I am glad to see it is going to be addressed, it strengthens the brand in many ways.
On BS&T Now: Nothing. Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up! Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
@291fifth said:
What measures have been taken to insure that the chips cannot be obtained by the makers of counterfeit coins and slabs? Where are the chips made?
Our partnership with HID allows for an authenticity check when the chip is scanned and the certification verification page is opened. A page accessed by a genuine chip will have language at the top stating that the chip has been verified as well as the coin.
Not that this isnt cool - and it does make counterfeited harder. I suspect there are still vulnerabilities
e.g.: fake slab, fake chip. When scanned, goes to a fake page that redirects with some sort of injected code that spoofs the page and inserts the fake details - possibly including a fake image. OR goes to a fake page that looks completely legit with proper wording/images of counterfeit coin. Counterfeiters will have to do this if they want to continue going after expensive widgets.
Definitely a good move making it harder, though! Good job PCGS
@291fifth said:
What measures have been taken to insure that the chips cannot be obtained by the makers of counterfeit coins and slabs? Where are the chips made?
Our partnership with HID allows for an authenticity check when the chip is scanned and the certification verification page is opened. A page accessed by a genuine chip will have language at the top stating that the chip has been verified as well as the coin.
Not that this isnt cool - and it does make counterfeited harder. I suspect there are still vulnerabilities
e.g.: fake slab, fake chip. When scanned, goes to a fake page that redirects with some sort of injected code that spoofs the page and inserts the fake details - possibly including a fake image. OR goes to a fake page that looks completely legit with proper wording/images of counterfeit coin. Counterfeiters will have to do this if they want to continue going after expensive widgets.
If you have to scan the chip from an app downloaded from PCGS, then that should cover this vulnerability. A fake QR code that translates to a website, on the other hand, could go to a spoofed web page that shows it as being real, complete with a spoofed TrueView of the fake coin.
@TradesWithChops said:
e.g.: fake slab, fake chip. When scanned, goes to a fake page that redirects with some sort of injected code that spoofs the page and inserts the fake details - possibly including a fake image. OR goes to a fake page that looks completely legit with proper wording/images of counterfeit coin. Counterfeiters will have to do this if they want to continue going after expensive widgets.
That's why you don't use a QR code - which has the entire URL encoded in it. The NFC chip just gives you some coded data that you send off using a URL built into the application.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
@TradesWithChops said:
e.g.: fake slab, fake chip. When scanned, goes to a fake page that redirects with some sort of injected code that spoofs the page and inserts the fake details - possibly including a fake image. OR goes to a fake page that looks completely legit with proper wording/images of counterfeit coin. Counterfeiters will have to do this if they want to continue going after expensive widgets.
That's why you don't use a QR code - which has the entire URL encoded in it. The NFC chip just gives you some coded data that you send off using a URL built into the application.
I said or not QR. ... Im sure given some time to tinker with it, an exploit could be made.
But now we are mixing skillsets - coin counterfeiting and hacking.
@291fifth said:
What measures have been taken to insure that the chips cannot be obtained by the makers of counterfeit coins and slabs? Where are the chips made?
Our partnership with HID allows for an authenticity check when the chip is scanned and the certification verification page is opened. A page accessed by a genuine chip will have language at the top stating that the chip has been verified as well as the coin.
Not that this isnt cool - and it does make counterfeited harder. I suspect there are still vulnerabilities
e.g.: fake slab, fake chip. When scanned, goes to a fake page that redirects with some sort of injected code that spoofs the page and inserts the fake details - possibly including a fake image. OR goes to a fake page that looks completely legit with proper wording/images of counterfeit coin. Counterfeiters will have to do this if they want to continue going after expensive widgets.
If you have to scan the chip from an app downloaded from PCGS, then that should cover this vulnerability. A fake QR code that translates to a website, on the other hand, could go to a spoofed web page that shows it as being real, complete with a spoofed TrueView of the fake coin.
If forced to use the official app to read it, then maybe. It would depend on how the app validates the information. As long as the input is validated, should be good to go (that is, even if the chip itself is fake/with bad input).
@291fifth said:
What measures have been taken to insure that the chips cannot be obtained by the makers of counterfeit coins and slabs? Where are the chips made?
Our partnership with HID allows for an authenticity check when the chip is scanned and the certification verification page is opened. A page accessed by a genuine chip will have language at the top stating that the chip has been verified as well as the coin.
Not that this isnt cool - and it does make counterfeited harder. I suspect there are still vulnerabilities
e.g.: fake slab, fake chip. When scanned, goes to a fake page that redirects with some sort of injected code that spoofs the page and inserts the fake details - possibly including a fake image. OR goes to a fake page that looks completely legit with proper wording/images of counterfeit coin. Counterfeiters will have to do this if they want to continue going after expensive widgets.
If you have to scan the chip from an app downloaded from PCGS, then that should cover this vulnerability. A fake QR code that translates to a website, on the other hand, could go to a spoofed web page that shows it as being real, complete with a spoofed TrueView of the fake coin.
If forced to use the official app to read it, then maybe. It would depend on how the app validates the information. As long as the input is validated, should be good to go (that is, even if the chip itself is fake/with bad input).
So, if youre going to peddle high value coins, have access to actually good content to do so, a rogue app that can pull off the switcheroo when scanning the nfc chip...
If we're coming up with scenarios and published articles about vulnerabilities, I'm sure HID Global is prepared for those with countermeasures that development partners are recommended to take when doing app development. They'd also do well to offer "ethical hack" testing as one of their services, which PCGS would be wise to use.
Staying ahead of the bad guys will be an arms race for a long time. From PCGS's point of view, they just need to have a better, more desirable product than competitors, and this move pushes them in that direction. In a market where there are only a couple players, however, the hobby as a whole needs to be aware of vulnerabilities in the entire slabbed coin ecosystem, and that includes competitors.
Has anyone heard any updates on when this might be available? I have a group I want to send in for cross-grading but if this is announced, like, next week, I'd rather wait the few extra days.
I used to be somebody, now I'm just a coin collector. Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
Here is a look at how the new security feature will appear in the app. You'll notice the top green section which verifies the chip and holder authenticity as well as a section identifying that the coin features a chip. The green message will only appear when the page has been accessed by scanning the NFC chip. This message will also appear on the website for those who do not have the app installed.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@HeatherBoyd said:
... The green message will only appear when the page has been accessed by scanning the NFC chip.
Will a message stating that the holder should have a chip be displayed if it is not accessed through the NFC chip?
Yes!
There are three alert message
1. This chip and holder are verified
2. We were unable to verify at this time
3. Invalid NFC technology detected
You will also see a new line of the Cert verification page for "Security" Which will state that a coin features a chip, letting you know you should be able to scan it.
I saw some of these at the Long Beach show, interesting. Pretty cool how you just hold your phone next to it and it brings up the PCGS cert verification page w/ the TrueView photo.
That said, some others I talked to don't like the idea of a chip in their slabs... some told me it would be hard for someone with a much more powerful source than a phone to scan from a bit further away and see what coins you have from afar...
I don't know the technology well enough to say that is the case, but the fact that potential buyers are thinking that is a concern.
In any event, putting a submission in the mail today for the new slabs.
Would have dropped it off while at Long Beach on Saturday but the line was too long, can't be away from my table that long to wait with everyone. Unfortunate that PCGS closed up early at Long Beach on Saturday and also doesn't have a separate line for authorized dealers to drop off coins anymore. Oh well.
Because I was asked by a member here... I just shot a quick video of how this new slab works... again, pretty neat, but some concerns about it too. Also noticed that the slab needs to be right next to the phone for it to activate. Would be nice if it would work a few inches away so you could scan coins locked in a dealers case w/o bugging them or when they are not at their tables.
Is the QR code gone? It could have been replaced with a "Frame" QR code, showing the "chipped" icon in the canvas area. Of course, I put stickers over those, anyway.
I just had the opportunity to test this system out with a new acquisition and I must say it is awesome. I wasn’t sure if it’d work with my iPhone X but it did like a champ. My first attempt with another GS coin didn’t work so I guess it doesn’t have the chip. On my new coin that sucker scanned in the blink of an eye.
It’s a great system all around with the potential for a wealth of data. You can scan it and verify it, and, as was in my case, see my coin’s latest recorded auction sale. I could see how well I did comparatively 😛 AND that in between the previous auction and when I bought it, it was resubmitted and moved into a GS holder from a standard holder, thus identifying that I did even better than I thought. 😬
"Today the crumbs, tomorrow the
loaf. Perhaps someday the whole damn boulangerie." - fictional Jack Rackham
Comments
This possibility has been talked about on the forum for at least a few years and is now a reality. Sort of like chipping the newly adopted cat, I guess. Most here like the idea. I probably will as well after thinking about it for a while. Seems like a huge step towards security, with little or no downside, though I still here Ben Franklin whispering in my ear..,
excellent move. I wonder if eventually pcgs will add like a photo to it for extra measure against fraud & the sorts?
No, but they could be a tool in recovering stolen property if our hosts implemented a stolen item registry that would alert someone scanning a coin that was reported stolen.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Good thing, but it if it is only at the Gold Service level, it is generally directed at high end coins. Most slabs with collector coins from say $250 to $3,000 value, won't have them then. How about adding an option for say, $10 more for regular service with chip added?
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
so many great questions and answers
I thinks that this is a very positive way of enhancing coin / slab security
I think that I will treat this as I do in buying a new car release: wait until the "bugs" are worked out and then go all in!
Now to research the cost of having my special coins re-slabbed with this feature.
Kennedys are my quest...
Good question - NFC chips CAN incorporate geolocation - but it's mostly tied into the app, but you would have had to grant permission to this. The release says if you scan a slab, it will automatically launch the PCGS Cert Verification App. I don't remember when I installed the app what permissions it asked for, if you see an updated app and it now asks for that, I would guess it is tracking.
For the older phones that can't do this natively, which the release says will require a 3rd party app - I guess it would be up to that app.
Guess the underlying question is are the slab chips enabled for this, and if so - how is this data stored within PCGS. Might be good for them to monitor this to see if a ton of scans from say... China start appearing, or as you mentioned, stolen coins.
They could also use this data to attempt to locate "Recalled" coins or god forbid I scan a coin and start getting e-mails for offers to buy the coin lol.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
You can pay $5 per coin to add the Gold Shield service to any service level.
The Cert Verification app currently does not and will not request your location for the scanning to work.
And to clarify: The PCGS Cert Verification app can act as the "3rd party app" as it will have a scan button. The difference is between newer phones that are always able to scan from anywhere in the background vs older phones which require an app to "enable" the scanning. The Cert Verification app will support both so you do not need to download an additional app. Most Android phones support background scanning, on iOS only much more recent phones support background scanning.
Software Engineer, PCGS
app@pcgs.com
At only $5 per coin Gold Shield is a good value even if just for the imaging. I add it to most of my submissions and all have been in the $250-3000 range. This is just one more reason to add it to any submission at the regular service level.
I do agree that an option to add it to a single coin in a submission would be nice to have.
Collector, occasional seller
Sounds good.
Need a little help here.
If I send in a coin for reholdering ( not for regrading) with the Gold Shield and the new chip security feature
my cost per coin would be:
1) insured sending shipping cost
2) a separate submission fee???
3) reholdering fee of $12.00 + $5.00 for the Gold Shield holder with new chip and
4) return insured shipping cost
Is this correct and is there a discount if I submit "X" number of coins at the same time with the same above criteria?
Thx in advance
Kennedys are my quest...
Congrats to PCGS - an important step forward.
I'm going to assume, yeah I know the saying that goes along when you say assume, that the bar code / QR code method of coin details will remain active with the PCGS Coin Cert Verification App.
The Cert Verification App makes that confirmation process much easier and much faster. Rather than typing in the coin’s certification number, simply scan the bar code (obverse) or QR code (reverse) found on the coin label.
It is a big, or even biggggger step forward, an excellent advancement and very impressive.
However, how long do you think will it take our hated "friends" from the PRoC (or perhaps an other country) to come up with effective counter measures? Just like CC counterfeits...
I believe this technology, even new and best now for the application, will soon be old and vulnerable. Just MO.
The only "discount" for sending multiple coins for Gold Shield Reholder would be amortizing the costs of items #1, #2, and #4 across more coins. Barring a Quarterly Collector's Club special, #3 is a fixed cost per coin. Item #2 is a flat $10 charge for an order of any size. Shipping (#1 and #4) increases with more coins and higher total value, but per coin you save good money on a larger order. You can eliminate #1 altogether by dropping the coins off with PCGS at a show.
Thank you for your insight
Kennedys are my quest...
A clarifying point on timing:
This chip tech is scheduled to roll out in the Spring 2020, starting with our Gold Shield products. Why just Gold Shield? Simply put, between Coins, Cards, and Banknotes Collectors Universe holders about five million collectibles globally each year! While rolling out a massive, global chip integration all at once didn't seem practical, the target is to eventually integrate NFC chip technology into all coin and banknote holders on a move forward basis by 2021.
This has been a years long project by both our IT and marketing staffs and i couldn't be prouder of how this product is shaping up and the massive benefits it will have for PCGS customers. Thanks!
Brett Charville --- I work at PCGS
And the slab should have two chips - one in the usual place and the other showcased where a coin would reside.
Did not know this until this thread. Thanks for clarification. I will start adding Gold Shield. So the chip for only $5 is worth it for sure.
Best, SH
Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
Kudos.
BTW, if anyone wonders why this isn't patent pending...
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20070118436A1/en
Although it was abandoned (no patent was issued), there is a lot of what has been disclosed about the new PCGS offering that the filing anticipated.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
One weakness here could be counterfeit slabs with NFC chips sending you to a spoof website that looks just like PCGS cert page. Most folks don’t look at the URL. Not much anyone could do other than try to get the fake page taken down which is difficult. Maybe on grounds of copyright infringement if images were borrowed.
Edit to add, great move, I’m a big fan, thank you for continuing to battle counterfeits in the market PCGS.
in the history of codes it has always been true that that which one man codes another will decode. It is just a matter of time.
Even so, this needed to be done
Bravo!
This is great news for the hobby.
It's great that this is now happening, the bad part of this is having slabs coming out of PCGS without a chip.
If your going to fight counterfeit slabs your going to need every holder to have a chip, even if it only confirms the basic information.
Is there any plans to have some kind of chip verification for every slab going out?
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
Yes. Scroll up a little.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Ok I missed this part, it did not stand out as a comment from a moderator, maybe getting a highlighted line in the header of the comment would grab the attention of the reader.
I am glad to see it is going to be addressed, it strengthens the brand in many ways.
Fighting the Fight for 11 Years with the big "C" - Never Ever Give Up!
Member PCGS Open Forum board 2002 - 2006 (closed end of 2006) Current board since 2006 Successful trades with many members, over the past two decades, never a bad deal.
Not that this isnt cool - and it does make counterfeited harder. I suspect there are still vulnerabilities
e.g.: fake slab, fake chip. When scanned, goes to a fake page that redirects with some sort of injected code that spoofs the page and inserts the fake details - possibly including a fake image. OR goes to a fake page that looks completely legit with proper wording/images of counterfeit coin. Counterfeiters will have to do this if they want to continue going after expensive widgets.
Definitely a good move making it harder, though! Good job PCGS
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
If you have to scan the chip from an app downloaded from PCGS, then that should cover this vulnerability. A fake QR code that translates to a website, on the other hand, could go to a spoofed web page that shows it as being real, complete with a spoofed TrueView of the fake coin.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
That's why you don't use a QR code - which has the entire URL encoded in it. The NFC chip just gives you some coded data that you send off using a URL built into the application.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I said or not QR. ... Im sure given some time to tinker with it, an exploit could be made.
But now we are mixing skillsets - coin counterfeiting and hacking.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
If forced to use the official app to read it, then maybe. It would depend on how the app validates the information. As long as the input is validated, should be good to go (that is, even if the chip itself is fake/with bad input).
But, there are vulnerabilities, ... https://securityboulevard.com/2019/10/nfc-false-tag-vulnerability-cve-2019-9295/
That said, this would be hard to pull off. This should be a huge win for PCGS.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
It would require a rogue app on the phone being used to test for authenticity, hacked in a fashion they dont recognize.
This could work: https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/04/27/implant-android-attack/#4f38be841d23
So, if youre going to peddle high value coins, have access to actually good content to do so, a rogue app that can pull off the switcheroo when scanning the nfc chip...
It'd be interesting to fund this research.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
If we're coming up with scenarios and published articles about vulnerabilities, I'm sure HID Global is prepared for those with countermeasures that development partners are recommended to take when doing app development. They'd also do well to offer "ethical hack" testing as one of their services, which PCGS would be wise to use.
Staying ahead of the bad guys will be an arms race for a long time. From PCGS's point of view, they just need to have a better, more desirable product than competitors, and this move pushes them in that direction. In a market where there are only a couple players, however, the hobby as a whole needs to be aware of vulnerabilities in the entire slabbed coin ecosystem, and that includes competitors.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
What will be the disposal of said chip for those that crack out and resubmit? Seems the crackout game got more expensive with the added charge.
Has anyone heard any updates on when this might be available? I have a group I want to send in for cross-grading but if this is announced, like, next week, I'd rather wait the few extra days.
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Slick move, I like it.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
Gold Shield NFC Technology is officially one week away!
We are excited to roll out this new added benefit to PCGS collectors free of charge starting February 24, 2020!
Make sure you update your PCGS Cert Verification app to take full advantage of the new technology.
Heather Boyd
PCGS Senior Director of Marketing
Very exciting! Can't wait to start trying this out
Here is a look at how the new security feature will appear in the app. You'll notice the top green section which verifies the chip and holder authenticity as well as a section identifying that the coin features a chip. The green message will only appear when the page has been accessed by scanning the NFC chip. This message will also appear on the website for those who do not have the app installed.
Heather Boyd
PCGS Senior Director of Marketing
Will a message stating that the holder should have a chip be displayed if it is not accessed through the NFC chip?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
I look forward to seeing one of these.
My YouTube Channel
It’s here.....
Yes!
There are three alert message
1. This chip and holder are verified
2. We were unable to verify at this time
3. Invalid NFC technology detected
You will also see a new line of the Cert verification page for "Security" Which will state that a coin features a chip, letting you know you should be able to scan it.
Heather Boyd
PCGS Senior Director of Marketing
I saw some of these at the Long Beach show, interesting. Pretty cool how you just hold your phone next to it and it brings up the PCGS cert verification page w/ the TrueView photo.
That said, some others I talked to don't like the idea of a chip in their slabs... some told me it would be hard for someone with a much more powerful source than a phone to scan from a bit further away and see what coins you have from afar...
I don't know the technology well enough to say that is the case, but the fact that potential buyers are thinking that is a concern.
In any event, putting a submission in the mail today for the new slabs.
Would have dropped it off while at Long Beach on Saturday but the line was too long, can't be away from my table that long to wait with everyone. Unfortunate that PCGS closed up early at Long Beach on Saturday and also doesn't have a separate line for authorized dealers to drop off coins anymore. Oh well.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Because I was asked by a member here... I just shot a quick video of how this new slab works... again, pretty neat, but some concerns about it too. Also noticed that the slab needs to be right next to the phone for it to activate. Would be nice if it would work a few inches away so you could scan coins locked in a dealers case w/o bugging them or when they are not at their tables.
What do you all think?
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Is the QR code gone? It could have been replaced with a "Frame" QR code, showing the "chipped" icon in the canvas area. Of course, I put stickers over those, anyway.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
I have one in-hand and can add a couple of things...
The NFC chip has a serial # and that plus an encrypted data value is what is sent to PCGS...
I haven't bothered to blind the tac value since it seems to be valid only for a brief while or a certain number of reads.
When I ported the URL to my desktop a few minutes later I received an error:
But re-reading the tag I was able to open the cert page.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I just had the opportunity to test this system out with a new acquisition and I must say it is awesome. I wasn’t sure if it’d work with my iPhone X but it did like a champ. My first attempt with another GS coin didn’t work so I guess it doesn’t have the chip. On my new coin that sucker scanned in the blink of an eye.
It’s a great system all around with the potential for a wealth of data. You can scan it and verify it, and, as was in my case, see my coin’s latest recorded auction sale. I could see how well I did comparatively 😛 AND that in between the previous auction and when I bought it, it was resubmitted and moved into a GS holder from a standard holder, thus identifying that I did even better than I thought. 😬
"Today the crumbs, tomorrow the
loaf. Perhaps someday the whole damn boulangerie." - fictional Jack Rackham
Hopefully this is a "passive" based emissions technology. So that it doesn't have a "half-life" comparable to a Duracell battery.
That would make these utterly useless.
Another reason why I LOVE PCGS. Keep up the great work👍👌🇺🇸