If a 68 RED Lincoln toned to BROWN in the holder, would it then be

jmlanzaf

The issue of "grade expiration" came up in a different thread. Not to pirate that thread, I started another.

The color guarantee on copper has a limited time frame before the associated guarantees expire. Someone raised the issue of the number grade as well as the color, so I ask the question: If a 68 RED Lincoln toned all the way to Brown while in the holder, would a reevaluation of the coin likely result in a grade of:

MFeld

I'd have to see it

For anyone who already voted or is considering choosing 1 or 2 - how on earth, could you know, without seeing the coin? In addition to the change in color, what about the luster, flecks, spots, eye-appeal?

Jimnight

67 BROWN - toning changes luster

Yes it would. It's not red anymore.

ricko

I'd have to see it

The coin would have to be evaluated in hand...Cheers, RickO

bolivarshagnasty

FWIW, I've never seen or heard of a red Lincoln turning this drastically in ANY holder.

jmlanzaf

@bolivarshagnasty said:
FWIW, I've never seen or heard of a red Lincoln turning this drastically in ANY holder.

I've never seen a Lincoln do it. I have seen an Indian Head collection that did it.

jmlanzaf

@MFeld said:
For anyone who already voted or is considering choosing 1 or 2 - how on earth, could you know, without seeing the coin? In addition to the change in color, what about the luster, flecks, spots, eye-appeal?

That is the point. I think it is fair to say that the grade does "expire"

cameonut2011

I'd have to see it

An even color with good luster and eye appeal or a spotted mess?

KindaNewish

Sometimes they get better in the old holders.
Not RD anymore, just much better:

And if you mean 1968 RD, as far as I know, there are no 1968 MS Lincolns in rattlers and just 2 proof coins made, this newp and another in PR65. This one also is definitely no longer red:

PhilLynott

I do the opposite and buy BN hoping it turns RD over time. Hasn't yet but one of these days it's gonna pay off

WingedLiberty1957

68 BROWN - color is a secondary descriptor not related to preservation

Here is a PR68BN in case anyone wants to see what one looks like ...

WingedLiberty1957

68 BROWN - color is a secondary descriptor not related to preservation

I bought this already slabbed, I have a feeling it was already toned when pcgs graded it RD. I recently sold this to another collector.

coinbuf

I'd have to see it

I voted I'd have to see it but in general its going to depend on the level of tarnish, a light colorful tarnish will have little affect where a heavy dark layer will most certainly impede the luster and drop the grade more times than not.

jmlanzaf

@WingedLiberty1957 said:
I bought this already slabbed, I have a feeling it was already toned when pcgs graded it RD. I recently sold this to another collector.

I would be really surprised if PCGS called that Red. Anyone else have an opinion???

fiftysevener

I don't think the grade should change, just your opinion of the grade.
Bought this brown. Still safely brown.
One beautiful Lincoln proof. This coin in hand is really deep and has cameo look to it.

Insider2

A simple question was asked: If a 68 RED Lincoln toned to BROWN in the holder...

I think some are making this too hard because they know so much. That's why in a grading class we make things very simple in order to get a point across and illustrate concepts. The coin is a 68 Red. It turns color from Red to RB, to Brown Red, to Brown. Nothing else happens to the coin in the OP's question. It does not spot, corrode, wear, get banged up, etc.

So, while I need to see it, is a sensible response, you failed the test because you overthought the question and are thinking COMMERCIAL VALUE GRADE!

If I asked the OP's question on a test, the correct answer would be that the coin will ALWAYS REMAIN A TECHNICAL GRADED MS-68 + a description of its color. EASY answer: MS-68 Brown.

The hard part (after learning the basics) that takes experience is to place a value (commercial grade) on the coin as its color degrades. The usual way this is done by most folks is to drop the numerical grade. For some of us, a gem, fully-lustrous, flashy-brown copper coin with iridescent accents, makes a COMMON red coin look naked. They are truly rare.

airplanenut

@Insider2 said:
A simple question was asked: If a 68 RED Lincoln toned to BROWN in the holder...

I think some are making this too hard because they know so much. That's why in a grading class we make things very simple in order to get a point across and illustrate concepts. The coin is a 68 Red. It turns color from Red to RB, to Brown Red, to Brown. Nothing else happens to the coin in the OP's question. It does not spot, corrode, wear, get banged up, etc.

So, while I need to see it, is a sensible response, you failed the test because you overthought the question and are thinking COMMERCIAL VALUE GRADE!

If I asked the OP's question on a test, the correct answer would be that the coin will ALWAYS REMAIN A TECHNICAL GRADED MS-68 + a description of its color. EASY answer: MS-68 Brown.

The hard part (after learning the basics) that takes experience is to place a value (commercial grade) on the coin as its color degrades. The usual way this is done by most folks is to drop the numerical grade. For some of us, a gem, fully-lustrous, flashy-brown copper coin with iridescent accents, makes a COMMON red coin look naked. They are truly rare.

You’re assuming the luster stays constant. A coin going from red to brown can certainly become duller, and that can change the grade.

cameonut2011

I'd have to see it

@Insider2 said:
A simple question was asked: If a 68 RED Lincoln toned to BROWN in the holder...

I think some are making this too hard because they know so much. That's why in a grading class we make things very simple in order to get a point across and illustrate concepts. The coin is a 68 Red. It turns color from Red to RB, to Brown Red, to Brown. Nothing else happens to the coin in the OP's question. It does not spot, corrode, wear, get banged up, etc.

Coins don't magically shift from full red to full brown in an instant; it is a slow process and occurs in stages with the progression and look varying with various ambient conditions. Surely an esteemed expert like you doesn't think toning is always even. If the 62 Lincoln in this thread started out as a 68 RD and ended up looking like that now, I'd have no problem with a 68 BN grade. Look at the 64 Lincoln though. If it had started out as a 68 RD, the spotting and streaking would drop the grade.

Insider2

@airplanenut said:

@Insider2 said:
A simple question was asked: If a 68 RED Lincoln toned to BROWN in the holder...

I think some are making this too hard because they know so much. That's why in a grading class we make things very simple in order to get a point across and illustrate concepts. The coin is a 68 Red. It turns color from Red to RB, to Brown Red, to Brown. Nothing else happens to the coin in the OP's question. It does not spot, corrode, wear, get banged up, etc.

So, while I need to see it, is a sensible response, you failed the test because you overthought the question and are thinking COMMERCIAL VALUE GRADE!

If I asked the OP's question on a test, the correct answer would be that the coin will ALWAYS REMAIN A TECHNICAL GRADED MS-68 + a description of its color. EASY answer: MS-68 Brown.

The hard part (after learning the basics) that takes experience is to place a value (commercial grade) on the coin as its color degrades. The usual way this is done by most folks is to drop the numerical grade. For some of us, a gem, fully-lustrous, flashy-brown copper coin with iridescent accents, makes a COMMON red coin look naked. They are truly rare.

You’re assuming the luster stays constant. A coin going from red to brown can certainly become duller, and that can change the grade.

This is exactly what I wrote about above. When folks assume something (in your case, that the luster became impaired as the coin turned brown) it changes the entire response. Of course you are correct when you "twist" the original question. However, I have found that once a beginner (not you) learns the simple
"technical" answer (68, brown) they are ready to be taught the nuances of grading such as your "twist!"

Insider2

@cameonut2011 said:

@Insider2 said:
A simple question was asked: If a 68 RED Lincoln toned to BROWN in the holder...

I think some are making this too hard because they know so much. That's why in a grading class we make things very simple in order to get a point across and illustrate concepts. The coin is a 68 Red. It turns color from Red to RB, to Brown Red, to Brown. Nothing else happens to the coin in the OP's question. It does not spot, corrode, wear, get banged up, etc.

Coins don't magically shift from full red to full brown in an instant; it is a slow process and occurs in stages with the progression and look varying with various ambient conditions. Surely an esteemed expert like you doesn't think toning is always even. If the 62 Lincoln in this thread started out as a 68 RD and ended up looking like that now, I'd have no problem with a 68 BN grade. Look at the 64 Lincoln though. If it had started out as a 68 RD, the spotting and streaking would drop the grade.

Eye Roll: I thank you for your misplaced opinion of me; however, it is too early to deal with the what if's. Here is another silly one, what if we chop the coin in half? I'm going to suggest that I covered your comment in my previous post concerning "twists."

IMNSHO, determining the condition of a coin IS EXTREMELY SIMPLE with the right tools and the RIGHT INSTRUCTION! Anyone with a modest IQ, good eyes, and the right tools/conditions in the room can describe what they see on ANY COIN OF ANY AGE OR TYPE. It is not difficult. I've seen it done over and over and over.

Determining a "market correct grade" to describe what they see is much more difficult as soon as we get away from common coins. Shall we start a CAC thread?

keets

I'd have to see it

yes, Virginia, the color designation is indeed part of the "Grade" assigned to the coin.

CCGGG

I'd have to see it

I'd want to see it but most likely it would be changed to RB or BR. IMO, the grade should also drop a point or two.

It's funny to me that when copper cents change from the original MS (red) (RD) to red/brown (RB) and then to brown (BR), the value and desirability goes down... Makes sense to me... However, when the "environment" changes silver coins from their original MS condition, (otherwise known as toning) the price often goes up... Crazy....

cameonut2011

I'd have to see it

@Insider2 said:

@airplanenut said:

@Insider2 said:
A simple question was asked: If a 68 RED Lincoln toned to BROWN in the holder...

I think some are making this too hard because they know so much. That's why in a grading class we make things very simple in order to get a point across and illustrate concepts. The coin is a 68 Red. It turns color from Red to RB, to Brown Red, to Brown. Nothing else happens to the coin in the OP's question. It does not spot, corrode, wear, get banged up, etc.

So, while I need to see it, is a sensible response, you failed the test because you overthought the question and are thinking COMMERCIAL VALUE GRADE!

If I asked the OP's question on a test, the correct answer would be that the coin will ALWAYS REMAIN A TECHNICAL GRADED MS-68 + a description of its color. EASY answer: MS-68 Brown.

The hard part (after learning the basics) that takes experience is to place a value (commercial grade) on the coin as its color degrades. The usual way this is done by most folks is to drop the numerical grade. For some of us, a gem, fully-lustrous, flashy-brown copper coin with iridescent accents, makes a COMMON red coin look naked. They are truly rare.

You’re assuming the luster stays constant. A coin going from red to brown can certainly become duller, and that can change the grade.

This is exactly what I wrote about above. When folks assume something (in your case, that the luster became impaired as the coin turned brown) it changes the entire response. Of course you are correct when you "twist" the original question. However, I have found that once a beginner (not you) learns the simple
"technical" answer (68, brown) they are ready to be taught the nuances of grading such as your "twist!"

Your original post is based on a fantasy situation that exists only in a very small minority of cases. As coins develop toning the eye appeal is almost always affected. Ditto for luster. Both eye appeal and luster are major components of grading at the MS/PF 68 level and even small changes can have profound differences on the coin's market grade at that level (as you love to tell us we're not in Kansas anymore - technical grading is largely a dead art). To play devil's advocate, if there are small marks on the surface that hold a coin back from a higher grade and they tone over nicely and in an eye appealing fashion, it is possible for the coin to upgrade. (And yes, I know that the technical grade hasn't changed - the surfaces are just obscured leading to the false perception of a higher state of preservation). As such, I don't think we are adding new "twists" so much as merely being realistic about the nature of toning and how the coin market works.

cameonut2011

I'd have to see it

@CCGGG said:
I'd want to see it but most likely it would be changed to RB or BR. IMO, the grade should also drop a point or two.

I'm curious as to why you would assume that a drop in grade should be automatic. Are you of the opinion that only red coins should be allowed above a certain grade level (e.g. 67 or so)?

CCGGG

I'd have to see it

@cameonut2011 said:

@CCGGG said:
I'd want to see it but most likely it would be changed to RB or BR. IMO, the grade should also drop a point or two.

I'm curious as to why you would assume that a drop in grade should be automatic. Are you of the opinion that only red coins should be allowed above a certain grade level (e.g. 67 or so)?

Since you "asked", IMO, any noticeable effect from the environment (e.g. tarnish/toning) degrades a coin from it's original MS condition. A red copper MS 70 might become a 67 or 68 if it turns RB or BR after decades. Tarnish/toning on silver coins is much worse, IMO.

There are still "tons" of 100+ year old copper and silver coins that almost look like they were just minted.

cameonut2011

I'd have to see it

@CCGGG said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@CCGGG said:
I'd want to see it but most likely it would be changed to RB or BR. IMO, the grade should also drop a point or two.

I'm curious as to why you would assume that a drop in grade should be automatic. Are you of the opinion that only red coins should be allowed above a certain grade level (e.g. 67 or so)?

Since you "asked", IMO, any noticeable effect from the environment (e.g. tarnish/toning) degrades a coin from it's original MS condition. A red copper MS 70 might become a 67 or 68 if it turns RB or BR after decades. Tarnish/toning on silver coin is much worse, IMO.

There are still "tons" of 100+ year old copper and silver coins that almost look like they were just minted.

A lot of that red copper is doctored especially for the antebellum stuff.

mr1931S

With the word system of describing mint state coins, the red lincoln that is a "superb gem" would still be a superb gem even if it merely turned brown (toned) in the holder.

Insider2

@cameonut2011 said:

@Insider2 said:

@airplanenut said:

@Insider2 said:
A simple question was asked: If a 68 RED Lincoln toned to BROWN in the holder...

I think some are making this too hard because they know so much. That's why in a grading class we make things very simple in order to get a point across and illustrate concepts. The coin is a 68 Red. It turns color from Red to RB, to Brown Red, to Brown. Nothing else happens to the coin in the OP's question. It does not spot, corrode, wear, get banged up, etc.

So, while I need to see it, is a sensible response, you failed the test because you overthought the question and are thinking COMMERCIAL VALUE GRADE!

If I asked the OP's question on a test, the correct answer would be that the coin will ALWAYS REMAIN A TECHNICAL GRADED MS-68 + a description of its color. EASY answer: MS-68 Brown.

The hard part (after learning the basics) that takes experience is to place a value (commercial grade) on the coin as its color degrades. The usual way this is done by most folks is to drop the numerical grade. For some of us, a gem, fully-lustrous, flashy-brown copper coin with iridescent accents, makes a COMMON red coin look naked. They are truly rare.

You’re assuming the luster stays constant. A coin going from red to brown can certainly become duller, and that can change the grade.

This is exactly what I wrote about above. When folks assume something (in your case, that the luster became impaired as the coin turned brown) it changes the entire response. Of course you are correct when you "twist" the original question. However, I have found that once a beginner (not you) learns the simple
"technical" answer (68, brown) they are ready to be taught the nuances of grading such as your "twist!"

Your original post is based on a fantasy situation that exists only in a very small minority of cases. As coins develop toning the eye appeal is almost always affected. Ditto for luster. Both eye appeal and luster are major components of grading at the MS/PF 68 level and even small changes can have profound differences on the coin's market grade at that level (as you love to tell us we're not in Kansas anymore - technical grading is largely a dead art). To play devil's advocate, if there are small marks on the surface that hold a coin back from a higher grade and they tone over nicely and in an eye appealing fashion, it is possible for the coin to upgrade. (And yes, I know that the technical grade hasn't changed - the surfaces are just obscured leading to the false perception of a higher state of preservation). As such, I don't think we are adding new "twists" so much as merely being realistic about the nature of toning and how the coin market works.

Eye Roll. You still don't get it. Of course this entire thread is based on a fantasy! It is an academic question that is not based on the real world YET it is an important concept to grasp in order to become "educated." Discussion of unusual or impossible scenarios is common it classrooms teaching almost everything.

cameonut2011

I'd have to see it

@Insider2 said:

@cameonut2011 said:
Your original post is based on a fantasy situation that exists only in a very small minority of cases. As coins develop toning the eye appeal is almost always affected. Ditto for luster. Both eye appeal and luster are major components of grading at the MS/PF 68 level and even small changes can have profound differences on the coin's market grade at that level (as you love to tell us we're not in Kansas anymore - technical grading is largely a dead art). To play devil's advocate, if there are small marks on the surface that hold a coin back from a higher grade and they tone over nicely and in an eye appealing fashion, it is possible for the coin to upgrade. (And yes, I know that the technical grade hasn't changed - the surfaces are just obscured leading to the false perception of a higher state of preservation). As such, I don't think we are adding new "twists" so much as merely being realistic about the nature of toning and how the coin market works.

Eye Roll. You still don't get it. Of course this entire thread is based on a fantasy! It is an academic question that is not based on the real world YET it is an important concept to grasp in order to become "educated." Discussion of unusual or impossible scenarios is common it classrooms teaching almost everything.

You're right. I don't get it. You're assuming facts not in evidence. Not all brown coins looks a like. The question stimulus was vague hence the "it depends" answer.

Insider2

That's OK. You're a smart guy, I'll bet if you think about it, eventually you will. It all comes down to the difference between reality and academic brain teasers used to make a point. As someone posted above, the commercial grade of a coin (its value) can change due to several factors while its technical (actual condition of preservation) remains the same. In this case, color has NOTHING to do with a technical grade yet is a major part of its value because red coins are considered closer to the way the coin looked when it was struck. Since the TPGS's claim to place a value on a coin, it is logical to raise or drop a coin's VALUE GRADE due to its color.

MFeld

I'd have to see it

@Insider2 said:
That's OK. You're a smart guy, I'll bet if you think about it, eventually you will. It all comes down to the difference between reality and academic brain teasers used to make a point. As someone posted above, the commercial grade of a coin (its value) can change due to several factors while its technical (actual condition of preservation) remains the same. In this case, color has NOTHING to do with a technical grade yet is a major part of its value because red coins are considered closer to the way the coin looked when it was struck. Since the TPGS's claim to place a value on a coin, it is logical to raise or drop a coin's VALUE GRADE due to its color.

And in the scenario presented in this thread, the TPG can assist a drop in value by changing the color designation and/or the numerical grade or assigning a details grade.

Insider2

@cameonut2011 said: "You're right. I don't get it."

Actually, I'm the one who did not get it. I changed the OP's question. While I don't change anything I posted about the technical grade vs the "value" grade, or how this would be treated as an academic question I twisted away from the discussion.

So, IMO, if an MS-68 red coin turned brown in the holder there is a very good chance it would be down graded regardless if its technical grade was MS-68. That's because color counts in the commercial market. See, you don't need to see the coin after all.

MFeld

I'd have to see it

@Insider2 said:
@cameonut2011 said: "You're right. I don't get it."

Actually, I'm the one who did not get it. I changed the OP's question. While I don't change anything I posted about the technical grade vs the "value" grade, or how this would be treated as an academic question I twisted away from the discussion.

So, IMO, if an MS-68 red coin turned brown in the holder there is a very good chance it would be down graded regardless if its technical grade was MS-68. That's because color counts in the commercial market. See, you don't need to see the coin after all.

You still don’t get it. If you believe that the grade could or would change, you’d still need to see the coin. Otherwise, you couldn’t determine what potential grade change to make.

Insider2

@MFeld said:

@Insider2 said:
@cameonut2011 said: "You're right. I don't get it."

Actually, I'm the one who did not get it. I changed the OP's question. While I don't change anything I posted about the technical grade vs the "value" grade, or how this would be treated as an academic question I twisted away from the discussion.

So, IMO, if an MS-68 red coin turned brown in the holder there is a very good chance it would be down graded regardless if its technical grade was MS-68. That's because color counts in the commercial market. See, you don't need to see the coin after all.

You still don’t get it. If you believe that the grade could or would change, you’d still need to see the coin. Otherwise, you couldn’t determine what potential grade change to make.

All we need to agree on is there is a 95% chance the grade would go down when the red coin turned to brown. Down to what? As the poll showed - without seeing the coin you cannot tell how far down. End of the fantasy discussion?

MFeld

I'd have to see it

@Insider2 said:

@MFeld said:

@Insider2 said:
@cameonut2011 said: "You're right. I don't get it."

Actually, I'm the one who did not get it. I changed the OP's question. While I don't change anything I posted about the technical grade vs the "value" grade, or how this would be treated as an academic question I twisted away from the discussion.

So, IMO, if an MS-68 red coin turned brown in the holder there is a very good chance it would be down graded regardless if its technical grade was MS-68. That's because color counts in the commercial market. See, you don't need to see the coin after all.

You still don’t get it. If you believe that the grade could or would change, you’d still need to see the coin. Otherwise, you couldn’t determine what potential grade change to make.

All we need to agree on is there is a 95% chance the grade would go down when the red coin turned to brown. Down to what? As the poll showed - without seeing the coin you cannot tell how far down. End of the fantasy discussion?

I don’t agree that there’s a 95% chance the grade will be lowered along with the change in the color designation. I still need to see the coin. Carry on.😉

Insider2

Anyone wish to post examples of MS-68 brown copper? Large cents are disqualified as they will probably have a little rub.

WildIdea

I’m thinking most would downgrade but there are surly outliers.

cameonut2011

I'd have to see it

@jmlanzaf said:
The issue of "grade expiration" came up in a different thread. Not to pirate that thread, I started another.

The color guarantee on copper has a limited time frame before the associated guarantees expire. Someone raised the issue of the number grade as well as the color, so I ask the question: If a 68 RED Lincoln toned all the way to Brown while in the holder, would a reevaluation of the coin likely result in a grade of:

Is there a reason you chose 68 RD instead of 67 RD or another grade?

WinLoseWin

I'd have to see it

@PhilLynott said:
I do the opposite and buy BN hoping it turns RD over time. Hasn't yet but one of these days it's gonna pay off

.
.

The nanotechnology will eventually get there.

But the downside is the AI machines that create those BN to RD nanobots will have already turned people into pet machine hybrids that don't care about coins. Have to program the AI to collect coins or it will be rough for the coin market.

The secret backdoor to bring the AI robots down before they get out of control is to get them arguing about coin grading (even they won't agree on computer grading and a set standard.)

.
.

“I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords...”

.
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sBBaNYex3E

Insider2

@WinLoseWin said: "I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords...”

One day we'll be fighting these things. Give me a 50 cal Gatling Gun loaded with acid filled tungsten or depleted uranium bullets and I'll turn that million dollar robot into smoking scrap with just a few second burst. Great fun I'll bet.

WingedLiberty1957

68 BROWN - color is a secondary descriptor not related to preservation

@Insider2 said:
Anyone wish to post examples of MS-68 brown copper?

There are no MS68 BN Lincoln Cents graded by PCGS. However of the 12 known MS67 BN Lincolns, I think this one is deserving of an MS68 BN grade. It was slabbed over 10 years ago, and has a guide price of $10,000. It's probably the best technical BN business strike Lincoln Cent I have ever seen.

messydesk

I'd have to see it

It depends on the coin. It could turn into the most incredible brown Lincoln, nay, the ne plus ultra of all brown coins with the color hiding whatever prevented it from getting a 69 and be called 69BN, ending up in an Important Auction™ with Double Nuclear White Hot™ bidding activity or it could be regraded Environmental Damage.

Insider2

@WingedLiberty1957 said:

@Insider2 said:
Anyone wish to post examples of MS-68 brown copper?

There are no MS68 BN Lincoln Cents graded by PCGS However of the 12 known MS67 BN Lincolns, I think this one is deserving of an MS68 BN grade. It was slabbed over 10 years ago, and has a guide price of $10,000. It's probably the best technical BN business strike Lincoln Cent I have ever seen.

Thanks, 13 examples out of many tens of thousands shows that this was an academic discussion but it could happen.

That coin is a beauty, exactly as I would imagine a 68 to be.> @MFeld said:

@MFeld said: "I don’t agree that there’s a 95% chance the grade will be lowered along with the change in the color designation. I still need to see the coin. Carry on.😉

I guess 13 out of tens of thousands goes a long way to support my contention. Looks more like 99.9999% of the 68 Red Lincolns eventually "lost their luster" and are graded lower.

CRH4LIFE

I'd have to see it

I’m in the boat of needing the coin in hand

TommyType

Just a "crowd sourcing" check:

Can anyone show me an MS-68BN Lincoln?

The reason I ask: I had always thought that there was a cap on how high a BN cent could even grade. "If it's brown, good luck getting over 65 or 66." (I don't know if that's something I officially heard, or made up in my little mind...)

So, seeing a 68BN would at least knock that out of my head.

Added: Nevermind….I skipped too much of the thread, and see that it's already been asked.

TommyType

Given this description:

From here: https://www.pcgs.com/news/tips-from-the-grading-room-part-7

It seems that "I'd have to see the coin" is the right answer. A lot of talk about "unevenness" of color, and potential spotting...And no assumption that unmarked surfaces or strength of strike will overcome that....

Insider2

@TommyType said:
Given this description:

From here: https://www.pcgs.com/news/tips-from-the-grading-room-part-7

It seems that "I'd have to see the coin" is the right answer. A lot of talk about "unevenness" of color, and potential spotting...And no assumption that unmarked surfaces or strength of strike will overcome that....

Thanks for the research!

IMO, just about everyone here has complicated the OP's original post. The one posted image of a 68 brown coin provides the correct answer without any added twists or references to the real world virtual impossibility of a coin remaining virtually flawless as its color degrades.

THERE IS NO NEED TO SEE THE COIN in this ideal situation of classroom fantasy that has obviously occured at least once in real life. In strictly academic terms of discussion a Red 68 remains a Brown 68 because the ONLY thing to change is its color.
What may be confusing some is that all bets are off as soon as commercial grading (value) enters the discussion. Red color is worth more than brown. Personally I prefer gem RB coins with a "set" surface over either red or brown.

TommyType

@Insider2 said:

Thanks for the research!

I'm not sure you read my research closely enough. It says that unevenness of color is (essentially) NOT ALLOWED in MS 67-69 coins. So, why should we ASSUME that our mythical MS-68 coin turned brown completely evenly? You simply can't assume that a RED MS-68 will automatically become a BN MS-68!

So, according to my "research", the right answer is....."I'd have to see the coin".

Insider2

@TommyType said:

@Insider2 said:

Thanks for the research!

I'm not sure you read my research closely enough. It says that unevenness of color is (essentially) NOT ALLOWED in MS 67-69 coins. So, why should we ASSUME that our mythical MS-68 coin turned brown completely evenly? You simply can't assume that a RED MS-68 will automatically become a BN MS-68!

So, according to my "research", the right answer is....."I'd have to see the coin".

AGAIN - just another twist.

I have run into this all my life. We are dealing with two things here. Neither is bad, it is just the way a person's mind has been wired and developed. Some folks have little imagination. It is totally frustrating to someone that can imagine virtually anything.

I have found it is very easy to teach something when all the variables are removed. Often this takes some imagination on the part of a student - they may need to either ignore something they see for the moment or imagine something that is not there.

I'll give you an actual example. As I'm constantly trying to refine by commercial grading skills I'll show a coin to a finalizer and ask a question. Doing this over the years, I've learned that some finalizers can grade just fine but they have no imagination and make lousy teachers! I'll show one of them a coin, give them my grade and await their opinion. That done, my next question might be, would this coin go up to an MS-XX if I removed this and this? Very often I get this WORTHLESS REPLY: "DUH, I need to see the coin!" Get my drift?

The same thing is going on in this discussion. Folks are adding all sorts of conditions to the simple question. Yet, if we take the time to break the MS-68 grade down to its TECHNICAL parts, NOTHING changed as its surface oxidized in a perfect, even, beautiful way.

PS I commented your research because I've never seen what you posted. I stopped reading it and I'm going to read it fully later. That's because IMO, nothing in it has anything to do with the posted academic question that can be answered simply with a little imagination. 68 Red goes to 68 Brown. If that does not make sense, you are in a different group than I. Nevertheless, I understand your group even though you may not understand mine.

MFeld

I'd have to see it

@Insider2 said:

@TommyType said:

@Insider2 said:

Thanks for the research!

I'm not sure you read my research closely enough. It says that unevenness of color is (essentially) NOT ALLOWED in MS 67-69 coins. So, why should we ASSUME that our mythical MS-68 coin turned brown completely evenly? You simply can't assume that a RED MS-68 will automatically become a BN MS-68!

So, according to my "research", the right answer is....."I'd have to see the coin".

AGAIN - just another twist.

I have run into this all my life. We are dealing with two things here. Neither is bad, it is just the way a person's mind has been wired and developed. Some folks have little imagination. It is totally frustrating to someone that can imagine virtually anything.

I have found it is very easy to teach something when all the variables are removed. Often this takes some imagination on the part of a student - they may need to either ignore something they see for the moment or imagine something that is not there.

I'll give you an actual example. As I'm constantly trying to refine by commercial grading skills I'll show a coin to a finalizer and ask a question. Doing this over the years, I've learned that some finalizers can grade just fine but they have no imagination and make lousy teachers! I'll show one of them a coin, give them my grade and await their opinion. That done, my next question might be, would this coin go up to an MS-XX if I removed this and this? Very often I get this WORTHLESS REPLY: "DUH, I need to see the coin!" Get my drift?

The same thing is going on in this discussion. Folks are adding all sorts of conditions to the simple question. Yet, if we take the time to break the MS-68 grade down to its TECHNICAL parts, NOTHING changed as its surface oxidized in a perfect, even, beautiful way.

PS I commented your research because I've never seen what you posted. I stopped reading it and I'm going to read it fully later. That's because IMO, nothing in it has anything to do with the posted academic question that can be answered simply with a little imagination. 68 Red goes to 68 Brown. If that does not make sense, you are in a different group than I. Nevertheless, I understand your group even though you may not understand mine.

And around and around we go. And then go around some more.

Please accept the fact that you and some other posters would not need to examine the coin, in order to answer the OP’s question. On the other hand, some of us (who don’t take it as a given that the color is the only thing that has changed), would need to see it, before answering.

Insider2

@MFeld said: "And around and around we go. And then go around some more."

Please accept the fact that you and some other posters would not need to examine the coin, in order to answer the OP’s question. On the other hand, some of us (who don’t take it as a given that the color is the only thing that has changed), would need to see it, before answering.

I AGREE

However, we would not need to be banging heads if some of you could accept the fact THAT IN THE POLL ABOVE, THE ONLY THING THAT CHANGED ON THE COIN WAS ITS COLOR!

Anyway, your post covers both those of us with imagination and the ability to consider ONLY what was stated in the the poll (red to brown) and those realists who wish to cover anything that can happen to the coin that was not in the original question. As I wrote before, "Duh, I need to see the coin" is a perfectly understandable answer for some very knowledgeable graders who don't wish to bother with intellectual "flights of fancy."

I prefer to deal with folks who can imagine, describe, and then discuss the characteristics seen on a fictional coin without needing to see the MS-68 BN coin posted above.