So, according to you, those who consider a change in color, but no other possible changes to the surfaces or appearance of the coin, are the ones with “imagination”. I think you might have it backwards. Round and round...
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
However, we would not need to be banging heads if some of you could accept the fact THAT IN THE POLL ABOVE, THE ONLY THING THAT CHANGED ON THE COIN WAS ITS COLOR!
Not exactly. The poll asks if a "68 RED Lincoln toned all the way to Brown while in the holder," not to the exclusion of other side effects from whatever caused it to turn from red to brown. This is different from asking if a 68RD turned into a 68BN. As the change from red to brown may affect eye appeal and luster, which are components of the grade, we don't know if the brown is an ugly or attractive one, lustrous or dead.
Speaking of add on twists to complicate a very simple theoretical question...here's another to consider: It really does not matter because the coin was in a basement grading service holder. LOL.
@Insider2 said:
BTW, for those folks with imagination including Mark and John, what grade would you give this copper Lincoln cent that you cannot see?
Contact marks: None visible under magnification.
Hairlines: None visible under magnification.
Strike: Extremely strong and full.
Luster: Extremely attractive and fully original.
Color: Iridescent brown.
Eye appeal: Outstanding and improvable. Wow!
I’d grade it 68BN. However, with respect to the eye-appeal, if you hadn’t written “...Outstanding and improvable” instead of “...Outstanding and unimprovable”, I’d grade it 69BN.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@WingedLiberty1957 said:
I bought this already slabbed, I have a feeling it was already toned when pcgs graded it RD. I recently sold this to another collector.
I would be really surprised if PCGS called that Red. Anyone else have an opinion???
Yea, the slab still says 68 RD so it still is a 68 RD, sell it quick on the bay - NEXT!
@Insider2 said:
BTW, for those folks with imagination including Mark and John, what grade would you give this copper Lincoln cent that you cannot see?
Contact marks: None visible under magnification.
Hairlines: None visible under magnification.
Strike: Extremely strong and full.
Luster: Extremely attractive and fully original.
Color: Iridescent brown.
Eye appeal: Outstanding and UNimprovable. Wow!
Correction noted. Now we agree on something, MS-69 at the least! Probably with a star or plus. I just copied the ANA "standards" for an MS-70 Morgan dollar and added the color.
@Insider2 said:
BTW, for those folks with imagination including Mark and John, what grade would you give this copper Lincoln cent that you cannot see?
Contact marks: None visible under magnification.
Hairlines: None visible under magnification.
Strike: Extremely strong and full.
Luster: Extremely attractive and fully original.
Color: Iridescent brown.
Eye appeal: Outstanding and UNimprovable. Wow!
Correction noted. Now we agree on something, MS-69 at the least! Probably with a star or plus. I just copied the ANA "standards" for an MS-70 Morgan dollar and added the color.
PCGS doesn’t use the star designation and I don’t think they use the “+” for MS/PF 69 coins. So it sounds like you’re excluding them from this exercise. See, things aren’t always as simple as you want or make them out to be.😈
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said: "PCGS doesn’t use the star designation and I don’t think they use the “+” for MS/PF 69 coins. So it sounds like you’re excluding them from this exercise. See, things aren’t always as simple as you want or make them out to be. 😈"
Actually,"things" are extremely simple until folks "know too much" or add caveats. Then it becomes extremely complicated. That's why as a rank amateur in a room with a dozen of the foremost professional numismatists in the country, I was shocked to observe them grade a single "Photograde XF 1794 Large cent" VF, XF,and AU! These were the folks planing the ANA's Grading service. Some knew too much. That's why only a few of them along with one rookie (who knew nothing but looked at an image in a book) guessed the correct grade of XF.
As for your post, TPGS's DON'T EXIST when a person is being taught the basics of coin grading. That comes later - after they have a strong foundation and learn how to examine a coin correctly.
@Insider2 said: @MFeld said: "PCGS doesn’t use the star designation and I don’t think they use the “+” for MS/PF 69 coins. So it sounds like you’re excluding them from this exercise. See, things aren’t always as simple as you want or make them out to be. 😈"
Actually,"things" are extremely simple until folks "know too much" or add caveats. Then it becomes extremely complicated. That's why as a rank amateur in a room with a dozen of the foremost professional numismatists in the country, I was shocked to observe them grade a single "Photograde XF 1794 Large cent" VF, XF,and AU! These were the folks planing the ANA's Grading service. Some knew too much. That's why only a few of them along with one rookie (who knew nothing but looked at an image in a book) guessed the correct grade of XF.
As for your post, TPGS's DON'T EXIST when a person is being taught the basics of coin grading. That comes later - after they have a strong foundation and learn how to examine a coin correctly.
If “TPG’s don’t exist” when the basics of coin grading are being taught, you shouldn’t add particulars such as “stars” (which are unique to a specific grading company) to the equation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@CoinscratchFever said:
Nevermind, jeez. Maybe one of you can chime in once you get your panties untangled.
I’m not sure what that was supposed to mean, as we’ve been having a civil discussion and as far as I know, neither of us is at all upset. We’ve both chimed in. What’s your view about the OP’s question?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld . Well, thank you Mr. Feld. Maybe, I misinterpreted ya'lls bantering back and forth. My apologies. No view, i was just wondering if a copper coin in a new type of PCGS slab could brown over time. I would assume that it would not because it is sealed.
@CoinscratchFever said: @MFeld . Well, thank you Mr. Feld. Maybe, I misinterpreted ya'lls bantering back and forth. My apologies. No view, i was just wondering if a copper coin in a new type of PCGS slab could brown over time. I would assume that it would not because it is sealed.
Thanks. My guess - and it’s only a guess - is that under the right conditions, a copper coin could still oxidize/change color, perhaps even to “BN”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@CoinscratchFever said: @MFeld . Well, thank you Mr. Feld. Maybe, I misinterpreted ya'lls bantering back and forth. My apologies. No view, i was just wondering if a copper coin in a new type of PCGS slab could brown over time. I would assume that it would not because it is sealed.
Thanks. My guess - and it’s only a guess - is that under the right conditions, a copper coin could still oxidize/change color, perhaps even to “BN”.
I don't know about the newer slabs, but I once was part of of the sale of a collection of Indian cents that were in 1990s vintage PCGS slabs. They were almost all "RD" to begin with. They were all "RB", sometimes bordering on brown when this sale happened in 2005 or 2006. They had been in a safety deposit box for 10 to 15 years.
Weimar White had also done experiments with the 1st gen slabs and showed them not to be air tight. That is why Intercept Shield products existed.
Has PCGS ever done tests on their own product? I've never seen the results.
Thanks for the reply's and my panties are all better now But, this is a major concern for me since I have been working on a Lincoln set and this has never crossed my mind until these recent threads. Based on Mr. Lanzaf's experience the shelf life could be as short as 10 to 12 years and especially in the wrong environments.
I'm in South Texas and it is very humid here which is another concern. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
@CoinscratchFever said:
Thanks for the reply's and my panties are all better now But, this is a major concern for me since I have been working on a Lincoln set and this has never crossed my mind until these recent threads. Based on Mr. Lanzaf's experience the shelf life could be as short as 10 to 12 years and especially in the wrong environments.
I'm in South Texas and it is very humid here which is another concern. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Again, I reiterate that those were early generation holders. The newer ones may be much better.
Your best bet is to to get the Intercept Shield box or make your own equivalent: tight sealing box with a dessicant and/or sacrificial anode in it [magnesium strip].
If you want to get really fancy, you could use nitrogen or carbon dioxide to create an inert environment in a sealed box.
You could also store them in sealed boxes in a freezer. The colder, drier air of the freezer would slow down any evolution in color.
Or, do what I do: only buy brown copper. LOL. Although I know this is a problem for the way you're collecting.
Hmm...does anyone make a refrigerated security safe? Maybe I should go into business....
@jmlanzaf . Interesting, the same technique as used on outboard motors, "the zinc". I won't need to go as far as cryogenic freezer boxes for my collection but, the Intercept or equivalent sounds good enough - Thanks.
Or maybe just put one low grade modern zinc Lincoln in each box of copper, lol.
@CoinscratchFever said: @jmlanzaf . Interesting, the same technique as used on outboard motors, "the zinc". I won't need to go as far as cryogenic freezer boxes for my collection but, the Intercept or equivalent sounds good enough - Thanks.
Or maybe just put one low grade modern zinc Lincoln in each box of copper, lol.
Lol. The magnesium is more reactive but zinc might work as a scavenger as well.
You could also use those vacuum bags that they sell for food storage. The less air the better
68 BROWN - color is a secondary descriptor not related to preservation
A lot to digest here. I simply answered "A"...grade stays the same, only color changes. But the majority believe you need to see the coin before answering...which seems like a safe answer, but do you really need to see it? Does the coin degrade as it changes color? Sure, the way the coin is stored affects it, in a humid environment, in a space capsule, under water...
I didn't realize there were technical grades & commercial grades. Are they really different and how do you know what grade you are holding if they are different?
I think the main question here is the one that sparked the poll in the first place. Do grades expire? Take a graded coin, and it doesn't have to be a cent, and add time to it...let's use a day. Hmmm, looks like the same. Grades the same, appearance is the same, no changes. Let's add more time....a thousand years. Hmmm, looks like some corrosion, tarnish, streaking...hmmm maybe that airtight capsule wasn't as airtight as advertised. How will the coin look in two thousand, three thousand, a million years?? Sure,, that is an extreme example of time but to get you to realize that grades are issued at a point in time and cannot possibly be guaranteed forever. Yes, grades expire, the real question is how much time do they have? How long does it take for a red cent to turn brown? How long does it take for silver to tarnish? How long do coins take to break down? Ten to twelve years? Different coins have different shelf lives...depends on the metals used.
I can only hope my grades on my coins stay the same, kind of scary thinking they're all losing ground. Dang spotting. At least they're not getting all scratched up in those holders.
@Onastone . I'm pretty sure human interaction plays a roll as well. When I find old rolls of cents that were clearly stored together for years, Ozarka bottle or whatever. Why are some still bright red and most of the others brown even in the same year. Perhaps some were never touched (lanolin). There must be a slew of different possibilities or this could just be a rabbit hole. Last year I purchased a '37 Linc. cased in a fatty holder, it is still red but, is it as red as it was originally, who knows?
Someone earlier mentioned an IHC that still looks brand new & red, apparently no worries there. I'm currently filling the easy holes of my collection and having them graded in the latest skins. But, once I have all those 60's, 70's, 80's etc. and have to move on to the older and harder to find cents where I actually have to buy coins already graded. I will have to have a plan and more experience of what is working and what is not.
@Onastone said:
A lot to digest here. I simply answered "A"...grade stays the same, only color changes. But the majority believe you need to see the coin before answering...which seems like a safe answer, but do you really need to see it? Does the coin degrade as it changes color? Sure, the way the coin is stored affects it, in a humid environment, in a space capsule, under water...
I didn't realize there were technical grades & commercial grades. Are they really different and how do you know what grade you are holding if they are different?
I think the main question here is the one that sparked the poll in the first place. Do grades expire? Take a graded coin, and it doesn't have to be a cent, and add time to it...let's use a day. Hmmm, looks like the same. Grades the same, appearance is the same, no changes. Let's add more time....a thousand years. Hmmm, looks like some corrosion, tarnish, streaking...hmmm maybe that airtight capsule wasn't as airtight as advertised. How will the coin look in two thousand, three thousand, a million years?? Sure,, that is an extreme example of time but to get you to realize that grades are issued at a point in time and cannot possibly be guaranteed forever. Yes, grades expire, the real question is how much time do they have? How long does it take for a red cent to turn brown? How long does it take for silver to tarnish? How long do coins take to break down? Ten to twelve years? Different coins have different shelf lives...depends on the metals used.
I can only hope my grades on my coins stay the same, kind of scary thinking they're all losing ground. Dang spotting. At least they're not getting all scratched up in those holders.
The obvious non-copper example is silver eagles and milk spots.
@CoinscratchFever said:
Nevermind, jeez. Maybe one of you can chime in once you get your panties untangled.
LOL. This is a very serious discussion containing some interesting concepts relating to how coins are graded both commercially or in a technical "academic" situation. BTW, my pants are fine and I suspect everyone else taking the time to post is OK also.
Perhaps this example is more understandable. If I take a showroom new $235,000 911 Turbo S Porsche with 2 miles on the odometer and smash out all the glass, it is still a showroom new car driven 2 miles around the dealership. ONLY ONE THING HAS CHANGED ON THE CAR. However, now it's COMMERCIAL VALUE has dropped because the glass is missing.
This is how I teach beginners. Since there are multiple things that affect both a coin's technical or commercial grade (THEY ARE VERY OFTEN DIFFERENT!), I have found for the best results that every one of the variables should be separated from the whole and discussed individually. Each is identified by what they look like and the different degrees that can exist in order to learn how EACH of them ALONE affects a coin's grade. Strike and it degree of fullness No, color for example.
So what I'm trying to do here has been the same thing.: 68 Red goes to 68 Brown. We don't need to add twists, what if's, or reality! That just adds confusion to a simple academic (not real world) fantasy poll. in the same way, stating that when we broke the glass out of the Porsche, we also damaged the paint and WINDOW FRAMES would complicate a discussion.
@Insider2 said:
Stars don't exist either but pluses do because they actually indicate a degree of something.
But a few posts of yours, back, you wrote “Now we agree on something, MS-69 at the least! Probably with a star or plus.”
I don't have time to go into the "original" meaning of the + sign fifty years ago and how it was adopted/changed/used to indicate the very top of a grade range (example XF-49.5) with nothing to do with eye appeal in the "original" true Technical Grading System at the first coin grading service (INSAB). That's because it no longer connected to a coin's degree of wear by any TPGS.
@Insider2 . Fair enough and thanks for your patience Did the dealer have insurance on that Porsche, just kidding...
I'm in your class whether you like it or not so, now I have a question What is a technical grade and what is a commercial grade?
I'm assuming the commercial grade is whats on the slab and the technical is what it really is now after, time crashed in the windows.
@CoinscratchFever asked: "What is a technical grade and what is a commercial grade? I'm assuming the commercial grade is whats on the slab and the technical is what it really is..."
I think you've got it. However, a more detailed answer requires a lengthy explanation and I'm a half-fast typist. That's because there is a true. original, as first devised in 1972 "technical" grading system and a similar "bastardized" technical system used in CO by folks who had no clue about the original version used for internal records in DC and than adopted by the second authentication service when they became the first authentication service to also grade customer's coins. Send me your phone number in a PM and a good time to call after 6 PM EST during the week.
68 BROWN - color is a secondary descriptor not related to preservation
Only two people chose "B" where it drops a grade because toning changes luster. I remember that question from awhile back, "What is luster?" That was a difficult one to answer and it seemed like luster meant a lot of different things to everybody. Does toning affect luster and does luster affect grade? It's almost like a reversal question we once had also about toning and color, increasing a grade because it was prettier. If colors change so much, why are they even used in a grade? What percentage of a grade is purely subjective?
@Onastone said:
"Only two people chose "B" where it drops a grade because toning changes luster. I remember that question from awhile back."
"What is luster?" That was a difficult one to answer and it seemed like luster meant a lot of different things to everybody."
Great questions, so little time. This would be a great "academic" discussion as I believe the commercial market has already worked it out.
BTW; "Luster" has a simple definition that covers ALL LUSTER on ANY SURFACE. The reason folks disagree with the simple definition is illustrated by the battered Porsche above. They "know too much."
"Does toning affect luster?"
Toning is oxidation, so It often does. End stage oxidation destroys MINT LUSTER but the black corroded area has a "luster" all its own!
"...and does luster affect grade?
Of course it does.
"It's almost like a reversal question we once had also about toning and color, increasing a grade because it was prettier. If colors change so much, why are they even used in a grade
Eye appeal is dependent on "Pretty."
"What percentage of a grade is purely subjective?"
True, original "Technical" grades are ZERO subjective - they are brutally accurate and can be explained/backed up by what is seen on the coin.
Commercial grading is very subjective. My guess at least 90% due to all the variables involved.
Comments
So, according to you, those who consider a change in color, but no other possible changes to the surfaces or appearance of the coin, are the ones with “imagination”. I think you might have it backwards. Round and round...
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Not exactly. The poll asks if a "68 RED Lincoln toned all the way to Brown while in the holder," not to the exclusion of other side effects from whatever caused it to turn from red to brown. This is different from asking if a 68RD turned into a 68BN. As the change from red to brown may affect eye appeal and luster, which are components of the grade, we don't know if the brown is an ugly or attractive one, lustrous or dead.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Speaking of add on twists to complicate a very simple theoretical question...here's another to consider: It really does not matter because the coin was in a basement grading service holder. LOL.
BTW, for those folks with imagination including Mark and John, what grade would you give this copper Lincoln cent that you cannot see?
Contact marks: None visible under magnification.
Hairlines: None visible under magnification.
Strike: Extremely strong and full.
Luster: Extremely attractive and fully original.
Color: Iridescent brown.
Eye appeal: Outstanding and UNimprovable. Wow!
I’d grade it 68BN. However, with respect to the eye-appeal, if you hadn’t written “...Outstanding and improvable” instead of “...Outstanding and unimprovable”, I’d grade it 69BN.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yea, the slab still says 68 RD so it still is a 68 RD, sell it quick on the bay - NEXT!
Question: Is this even possible within PCGS's latest slabs? Can a copper coin that is sealed and free from the elements still turn BN?
Correction noted. Now we agree on something, MS-69 at the least! Probably with a star or plus. I just copied the ANA "standards" for an MS-70 Morgan dollar and added the color.
PCGS doesn’t use the star designation and I don’t think they use the “+” for MS/PF 69 coins. So it sounds like you’re excluding them from this exercise. See, things aren’t always as simple as you want or make them out to be.😈
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said: "PCGS doesn’t use the star designation and I don’t think they use the “+” for MS/PF 69 coins. So it sounds like you’re excluding them from this exercise. See, things aren’t always as simple as you want or make them out to be. 😈"
Actually,"things" are extremely simple until folks "know too much" or add caveats. Then it becomes extremely complicated. That's why as a rank amateur in a room with a dozen of the foremost professional numismatists in the country, I was shocked to observe them grade a single "Photograde XF 1794 Large cent" VF, XF,and AU! These were the folks planing the ANA's Grading service. Some knew too much. That's why only a few of them along with one rookie (who knew nothing but looked at an image in a book) guessed the correct grade of XF.
As for your post, TPGS's DON'T EXIST when a person is being taught the basics of coin grading. That comes later - after they have a strong foundation and learn how to examine a coin correctly.
If “TPG’s don’t exist” when the basics of coin grading are being taught, you shouldn’t add particulars such as “stars” (which are unique to a specific grading company) to the equation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Stars don't exist either but pluses do because they actually indicate a degree of something.
But a few posts of yours, back, you wrote “Now we agree on something, MS-69 at the least! Probably with a star or plus.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Nevermind, jeez. Maybe one of you can chime in once you get your panties untangled.
I'm waiting for the green designation. It's copper
.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I’m not sure what that was supposed to mean, as we’ve been having a civil discussion and as far as I know, neither of us is at all upset. We’ve both chimed in. What’s your view about the OP’s question?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld . Well, thank you Mr. Feld. Maybe, I misinterpreted ya'lls bantering back and forth. My apologies. No view, i was just wondering if a copper coin in a new type of PCGS slab could brown over time. I would assume that it would not because it is sealed.
Thanks. My guess - and it’s only a guess - is that under the right conditions, a copper coin could still oxidize/change color, perhaps even to “BN”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don't know about the newer slabs, but I once was part of of the sale of a collection of Indian cents that were in 1990s vintage PCGS slabs. They were almost all "RD" to begin with. They were all "RB", sometimes bordering on brown when this sale happened in 2005 or 2006. They had been in a safety deposit box for 10 to 15 years.
Weimar White had also done experiments with the 1st gen slabs and showed them not to be air tight. That is why Intercept Shield products existed.
Has PCGS ever done tests on their own product? I've never seen the results.
The folks who like toned silver should love that!
Thanks for the reply's and my panties are all better now
But, this is a major concern for me since I have been working on a Lincoln set and this has never crossed my mind until these recent threads. Based on Mr. Lanzaf's experience the shelf life could be as short as 10 to 12 years and especially in the wrong environments.
I'm in South Texas and it is very humid here which is another concern. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Again, I reiterate that those were early generation holders. The newer ones may be much better.
Your best bet is to to get the Intercept Shield box or make your own equivalent: tight sealing box with a dessicant and/or sacrificial anode in it [magnesium strip].
If you want to get really fancy, you could use nitrogen or carbon dioxide to create an inert environment in a sealed box.
You could also store them in sealed boxes in a freezer. The colder, drier air of the freezer would slow down any evolution in color.
Or, do what I do: only buy brown copper. LOL. Although I know this is a problem for the way you're collecting.
Hmm...does anyone make a refrigerated security safe? Maybe I should go into business....
@jmlanzaf . Interesting, the same technique as used on outboard motors, "the zinc". I won't need to go as far as cryogenic freezer boxes for my collection but, the Intercept or equivalent sounds good enough - Thanks.
Or maybe just put one low grade modern zinc Lincoln in each box of copper, lol.
Lol. The magnesium is more reactive but zinc might work as a scavenger as well.
You could also use those vacuum bags that they sell for food storage. The less air the better
A lot to digest here. I simply answered "A"...grade stays the same, only color changes. But the majority believe you need to see the coin before answering...which seems like a safe answer, but do you really need to see it? Does the coin degrade as it changes color? Sure, the way the coin is stored affects it, in a humid environment, in a space capsule, under water...
I didn't realize there were technical grades & commercial grades. Are they really different and how do you know what grade you are holding if they are different?
I think the main question here is the one that sparked the poll in the first place. Do grades expire? Take a graded coin, and it doesn't have to be a cent, and add time to it...let's use a day. Hmmm, looks like the same. Grades the same, appearance is the same, no changes. Let's add more time....a thousand years. Hmmm, looks like some corrosion, tarnish, streaking...hmmm maybe that airtight capsule wasn't as airtight as advertised. How will the coin look in two thousand, three thousand, a million years?? Sure,, that is an extreme example of time but to get you to realize that grades are issued at a point in time and cannot possibly be guaranteed forever. Yes, grades expire, the real question is how much time do they have? How long does it take for a red cent to turn brown? How long does it take for silver to tarnish? How long do coins take to break down? Ten to twelve years? Different coins have different shelf lives...depends on the metals used.
I can only hope my grades on my coins stay the same, kind of scary thinking they're all losing ground. Dang spotting. At least they're not getting all scratched up in those holders.
@Onastone . I'm pretty sure human interaction plays a roll as well. When I find old rolls of cents that were clearly stored together for years, Ozarka bottle or whatever. Why are some still bright red and most of the others brown even in the same year. Perhaps some were never touched (lanolin). There must be a slew of different possibilities or this could just be a rabbit hole. Last year I purchased a '37 Linc. cased in a fatty holder, it is still red but, is it as red as it was originally, who knows?
Someone earlier mentioned an IHC that still looks brand new & red, apparently no worries there. I'm currently filling the easy holes of my collection and having them graded in the latest skins. But, once I have all those 60's, 70's, 80's etc. and have to move on to the older and harder to find cents where I actually have to buy coins already graded. I will have to have a plan and more experience of what is working and what is not.
The obvious non-copper example is silver eagles and milk spots.
LOL. This is a very serious discussion containing some interesting concepts relating to how coins are graded both commercially or in a technical "academic" situation. BTW, my pants are fine and I suspect everyone else taking the time to post is OK also.
Perhaps this example is more understandable. If I take a showroom new $235,000 911 Turbo S Porsche with 2 miles on the odometer and smash out all the glass, it is still a showroom new car driven 2 miles around the dealership. ONLY ONE THING HAS CHANGED ON THE CAR. However, now it's COMMERCIAL VALUE has dropped because the glass is missing.
This is how I teach beginners. Since there are multiple things that affect both a coin's technical or commercial grade (THEY ARE VERY OFTEN DIFFERENT!), I have found for the best results that every one of the variables should be separated from the whole and discussed individually. Each is identified by what they look like and the different degrees that can exist in order to learn how EACH of them ALONE affects a coin's grade. Strike and it degree of fullness No, color for example.
So what I'm trying to do here has been the same thing.: 68 Red goes to 68 Brown. We don't need to add twists, what if's, or reality! That just adds confusion to a simple academic (not real world) fantasy poll. in the same way, stating that when we broke the glass out of the Porsche, we also damaged the paint and WINDOW FRAMES would complicate a discussion.
Easy right?
I don't have time to go into the "original" meaning of the + sign fifty years ago and how it was adopted/changed/used to indicate the very top of a grade range (example XF-49.5) with nothing to do with eye appeal in the "original" true Technical Grading System at the first coin grading service (INSAB). That's because it no longer connected to a coin's degree of wear by any TPGS.
@Insider2 . Fair enough and thanks for your patience
Did the dealer have insurance on that Porsche, just kidding...
What is a technical grade and what is a commercial grade?
I'm in your class whether you like it or not so, now I have a question
I'm assuming the commercial grade is whats on the slab and the technical is what it really is now after, time crashed in the windows.
@CoinscratchFever asked: "What is a technical grade and what is a commercial grade? I'm assuming the commercial grade is whats on the slab and the technical is what it really is..."
I think you've got it. However, a more detailed answer requires a lengthy explanation and I'm a half-fast typist. That's because there is a true. original, as first devised in 1972 "technical" grading system and a similar "bastardized" technical system used in CO by folks who had no clue about the original version used for internal records in DC and than adopted by the second authentication service when they became the first authentication service to also grade customer's coins. Send me your phone number in a PM and a good time to call after 6 PM EST during the week.
To me the grade is unchanged...….only the color.
Only two people chose "B" where it drops a grade because toning changes luster. I remember that question from awhile back, "What is luster?" That was a difficult one to answer and it seemed like luster meant a lot of different things to everybody. Does toning affect luster and does luster affect grade? It's almost like a reversal question we once had also about toning and color, increasing a grade because it was prettier. If colors change so much, why are they even used in a grade? What percentage of a grade is purely subjective?
@Onastone said:
"Only two people chose "B" where it drops a grade because toning changes luster. I remember that question from awhile back."
"What is luster?" That was a difficult one to answer and it seemed like luster meant a lot of different things to everybody."
Great questions, so little time. This would be a great "academic" discussion as I believe the commercial market has already worked it out.
BTW; "Luster" has a simple definition that covers ALL LUSTER on ANY SURFACE. The reason folks disagree with the simple definition is illustrated by the battered Porsche above. They "know too much."
"Does toning affect luster?"
Toning is oxidation, so It often does. End stage oxidation destroys MINT LUSTER but the black corroded area has a "luster" all its own!
"...and does luster affect grade?
Of course it does.
"It's almost like a reversal question we once had also about toning and color, increasing a grade because it was prettier. If colors change so much, why are they even used in a grade
Eye appeal is dependent on "Pretty."
"What percentage of a grade is purely subjective?"
True, original "Technical" grades are ZERO subjective - they are brutally accurate and can be explained/backed up by what is seen on the coin.
Commercial grading is very subjective. My guess at least 90% due to all the variables involved.
Thanks @Insider2