If all the surviving 1909-S VDB cents were placed back into circulation. . .
abcde12345
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How easy or difficult would it be to locate one randomly in your change?
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abcde12345
Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
abcde12345
Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Extremely difficult. No one uses cash, much less US coinage here.
Smitten with DBLCs.
I'm sure it would depend on lot of factors. How many of the less than 1/2mil that were originally minted are still out there? Would they all be dumped into circulation on the same day and/or at different locations? etc... No matter, if you didn't get one on the first day or two of circulation they would be gone. It's super easy to spot any wheat cent these days.
I can guarantee you that there are 7 that will never be back in circulation "in my lifetime".
Do coin shows still do 'coin drops' anymore?
Why do you put two cents in when it's only a penny for your thoughts?
Your would have three times more pieces circulating than the original mintage indicates.
Where is here?
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Are businesses required by statute or law and are mandated to accept the 1909-S VDB in commerce? Can a business owner reject this coin at his or her own discretion?
New Zealand. Cash has nearly disappeared - other than the plumber seeking cash as part of an under-the-table deal...
Smitten with DBLCs.
Anyone here know of someone who found a 90-S VDB in change? Maybe a parent or a grandparent?
They would disappear into collections almost immediately...there are a couple million change searchers out there...Cheers, RickO
I cant even find a w quarter and theres way more of them!
HAPPY COLLECTING
It would be very difficult to almost impossible to find one... but one could get very lucky.
If all were dropped into circulation would they be worth more, as each was discovered- then they are now?
Not a 90-S VDB but one of my boys got a 1909-S VDB in change when he was 12-13 years old. He noticed it was different. A wheat cent. I couldn't believe it. Anyway, it was fake. But...It is in the Dansco and I like it. The only penny I had to buy for that set was the 14-D. Started that set when I was a little kid. That fake 1909 suits me just fine. All things considered, better than the real deal!
IT's a simple math problem. 150,000 coins or so mixed in with 50 to 100 billion cents. So, on any transaction involving cents, you have roughly a 1 in 1 million chance. If you are old-school cash oriented and do 10 transactions per week involving a total of 20 cents, then you would expect to encounter 1 SVDB every 50,000 weeks.
A private business owner can reject any coin or currency they choose.
Yes, when I was in junior high school, about 1964, one guy found one in a girl's change purse during lunch.
He told her about it, and I don't know what the result was-- if they sold it or what.
BHNC #203
Even there they must have some rights. For example, stores often won't take hundreds. Do they have to in MA?
The maths I was looking for.
this guy maths!
No.
Yes.
If all 1909 SVDB's ever made were mixed in randomly with all wheat cents ever made, one would be looking at odds of about 1 in 53,000 of finding just one. Of course, the odds get much, much worse when one considers adding to the mix all Lincoln cents made from 1959 to the present. Really, too hopeless to contemplate.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
You might be surprised just how "easy" they'd be to find... ...at first. Each week a few would be found but finds would taper off to nothing in less than a couple years. Most of them would never be found unless collectors check the circulating pennies before they get scrapped. This is probably very unlikely because the odds of a coffee can full of pennies having a valuable memorial, shield, or '09-S vdb in it will be very low. They'll mostly just be shoveled into the furnaces or tossed in the trash.
I don't need to say it but hold onto you '09 cents!
The Coinage Act of 1965 makes all of the coinage of the United States legal tender. There is no federal law that requires a vendor to accept the coins however. If you owe someone a debt and the individual or entity refuses payment then you may have an affirmative defense to a contract suit. The concepts are distinct. Also you cannot walk out with merchandise if a vendor refuses to accept your money. He or she legally can refuse to do business with you for any reason so as long as it isn't for an unlawful purpose (think state and federal civil rights laws here - you can't refuse for race for instance).
Edited: There may be state statutes in play, but I want to see case law interpreting the Massachusetts state statute cited. Its purpose is to prevent the total prohibition of cash payments in favor of credit and debit cards. While a retail establishment (which is not defined) may not bar currency payments all together it is not completely clear that it prohibits reasonable limitations such as refusing $100 bills or $1,000 face value in cents. I think it is erroneous to ignore the rest of the statute which provides context.
Are the 50-100 billion cents really "in circulation" if they are mostly sitting in jars and containers in millions of peoples' closets? The number in banks and cash registers now may be more in the 2-5 billion range since most extant cents are not actively in circulation.
See, your odds just got a little better. Now everyone put your 09SVDBs back into circulation.
I would think the slab would be a dead give away. I doubt it would fit in the cent section of a cash register.
Except the same fraction of S-VDBs would be sitting in the same jars and containers, so your odds stay the same.
It would be easier to believe this is the intent if the government didn't exempt themselves from the need to comply with the regulation.
Can I film the episode when you try to walk out with the Coke because they would not accept your $100 bill?
Cents have a limited legal tender status. I think that are limited to 50 cents. Beyond that the business is not required to accept them in payment for a debt. The old fable about dumping a truck load of vents on someone’s front yard to settle a disputed debt is an urban legend. It would not satisfy the debt and could result in legal action.
I'd actually really love to see case law supporting the contention that you can place merchandise in your cart, hand the cashier hundreds or thousands of cents as payment, and walk away without paying when the cashier refuses. The statute makes no reference to dollar values or series/design. What if someone refuses obsolete currency of low value or no face value premium (e.g. hundreds from the 1960s, 1980s, and 1990s in worn condition), which is still legal tender, for fear that it is counterfeit or for fear that the banks might not accept it? Would that individual be free to walk away with large sums of merchandise? Does a car dealership count as a "retail establishment"? What about an Apple store? Could you buy a new Lexis or Audi SUV in cents or nickels over the objection of the car dealership who would spend large sums of money transporting the money to the bank and counting it? Do you think your client could beat a grand larceny charge if he drives off with it and then sue to compel transfer of title? What about a couple of grand in cents for a new Macbook Pro? What about paying for your $300 dinner at a luxury restaurant in change? Could you gas up a fleet of vehicles for your business and compel a gas station attendant to accept thousands of cents in payment? To keep this coin related, could someone abscond with a five figure coin from a dealership when the dealer tells him to pound sand when he tries to pay in zinc Lincoln cents? Could he beat a theft charge and then sue the poor coin dealer for "discrimination?" (Many collectors love to hate on dealers sadly.)
The purpose of the statute is to prevent people who don't have bank accounts (and thus debit cards) or credit cards from being excluded from the economy per you. I buy that and it is a lofty goal; however, your interpretation does nothing to further the obvious intent. Forcing someone to take hundreds or thousands of dollars of coins to a bank to exchange them for higher value currency excludes no one from the economy nor does it satisfy the obvious objective of the statute. You may very well be correct in your interpretation and Massachusetts appellate courts might very well adopt your reading (I have my doubts); however, that seems so far out in left field to the point of likely being ruled a scrivener's error or reinterpreted under the absurdity doctrine. If I am wrong and you can find cases to support the questions in this thread, I would not be surprised to see those cases overruled at some point.
Any way this was a fun exercise in statutory interpretation.
Another statute defines retail establishment as "any premises in which the business of selling services or tangible personal property is conducted, or, in or from which any retail sales are made." I agree that appellate courts will look to how it is used in other statutes in defining "retail establishment" for this statute. As I read this broad definition, it includes attorneys who sell their services. When you feel overcharged by your lawyer, can you leave several thousand mint bags of circulated cents in his lobby if you aren't happy with the outcome of your case?
Is your debt discharged when the lawyer tells the client no?
https://malegislature.gov/laws/generallaws/parti/titleix/chapter64h/section1
I believe the Coinage Act of 1965 removed limits on the number of coins considered to be legal tender.
edited to add...
Title 1, Sec. 102:
All coins and currencies of the United States (including
Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks
and national banking associations), regardless of when coined or
issued, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, public
charges, taxes, duties, and dues.
https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/files/docs/historical/congressional/coinage-act-1965.pdf
(Obvious hyperbole for a coke, but it is fun to dream.)
I have more than a few signs that informed customers that the restaurant (usually) would not accept $50 or $100 bills.
Hoard the keys! Hoard the Keys!
It sounds like you're saying, "Florida Keys! Florida Keys?"
Not a good place to store the hoard ... they may corrode.