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Should toning bump the grades on coins ???
John2000
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After a discussion on another forum, I was wondering the thought process here. Should coins have grading points added for toning, or is a +/* enough ?
Link to referenced thread.
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/interesting-finds-aka-where-the-67s-are-from.342300/
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Toning bump Prices
and
Prices bump Grades
therefore
Toning bump Grades
If a coin is near the next higher grade and the toning is very attractive it should bump the grade as long as eye appeal is a grading factor and we are doing market grading rather than technical grading.
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It’s about eye-appeal, which is a component of grading. Some toning adds to eye-appeal and some toning detracts from it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
No. It should not.
When it comes right down to it toning is nothing more than environmental damage, sometimes quite beautiful, but it comes from being in a damaging environment none the less,
if toning should jump the grade then perhaps environmental damage should straight grade.
With Market Grading, it's really about whatever bumps the price.
IMO, the technical grade is subjective enough without adding in another even more subjective bump for eye appeal. Toning beauty is eye of the beholder, and shouldn't be worthy of a grade point bump. That should be left to the market itself to decide.
Also why add a + for top end of grade, if there are no - for low end of grade ?
Another TPGS adds a * for eye appeal, and a + for top end of grade, again no - for low end.
Are we not capable of making decisions on our own as collectors at all anymore ?
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So maybe instead of TPGS, we should rename it TPMGS ?
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No, toning is not a universally accepted improvement in a coins grade or even for eye appeal.
The concept of adding to a grade for 'eye appeal' - which usually means tarnish - is, IMO, wrong. Yes, many collectors like colors on coins....and many do not like it. It should have nothing to do with the grade assigned, since beauty is - as the saying goes - in the eye of the beholder. Not everyone likes the same art, or architecture, or facial features on humans....It is even more subjective than the current technical grading....
Cheers, RickO
Yes, it should bump the grade "DOWNWARD". Any other types of environmentally damaged coins will get points knock-off. E.g. Copper spots, milk spots, etc are seen as negatives so why is toning any different. Someday certain dings, scratches and fingerprints will become considered acceptable and maybe even appealing.
IMHO, I think slabbed coins should be graded but labeled as environmentally damaged.
After reading the linked post, I think we are seeing market value overcoming technical factors in grade assignments with Morgan dollars. Duh, right?
They are definitely outliers, but make the OP question relevant.
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That first coin is another interesting topic altogether, looks like a strikethrough on the cheek and it was counted against it the first time and ignored the next causing the grade difference.
As I understand, the Sheldon system was market grading in its inception. I think 1-70 originally correlated with prices.
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Take a look at the reeding hits (from another Morgan) under the U of Pluribus. That was my guess as to what should be the limiter.
Nice toning should bump price, but not grade.
In a perfect world that we do not live in.
It’s about eye-appeal, which is a component of grading. Some toning adds to eye-appeal and some toning detracts from it.
Mark, what you say is true but it can have a very adverse affect on pricing, something I'm sure an experienced guy like you would agree with.
to explain, I think that the market should determine eye-appeal and more specifically what it adds to a coin's price. what I see happening with TPG's is that they will take what is technically an MS64 coin and grade it MS65(plus some) because of attractive tone. then when the coin is offered for sale it is bumped up still more. I think it would be better for everyone, TPG's/sellers/buyers if coins were graded on their technical merits minus any emotional component, then the buyer could add his emotion to the equation and pay up.
I hold out no hope that this will ever happen.
I agree on all counts.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The simple answer is no tarnish should have no affect on the grade up or down, eye appeal is not a repeatable objective standard and has no place in in the grading room. But grading is not about standards its about money and consistent repeatable standards would affect the bottom line, as a result we have this mess called market grading. It is not good for the hobby but it is good for the bottom line. This will not change until a better money making scheme comes along.
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It does to my recollection on some coins, such as early US copper. I recall seeing more than a few of these coins in numerically graded holders where the series I collect (silver and not US but from a comparable time period) even with better surfaces would all end up in details holders. I find this inconsistency very annoying.
Sometimes it's so obvious that a coin has gotten a bump for said toning. This kind of thing does Pi** me off. Grade the coin for it's wholeness in general without taking into consideration if the said graders at the time "like it" because of a certain color or toning. Should have **no impact **on the final grade IMO. I've seen coins resting in 2 point higher slabs on the sole reason because of this. Don't get me wrong, I like certain colors/toning, but this is no reason to inflate the grade.
I believe the right toning should bump the grade on the right coin.
Maybe, sometimes, and it depends.
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No. It's very possible that toning can also hide flaws that actually lower the grade.
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If you remove the toning [usually by dipping] and don't see any damage then the toning hasn't damaged the coin.
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More often than not with a nice toner, the toning bumps the selling price a lot more than the grade inflated from 64 to 65 would; esp. with common date Morgans.
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As HRH said, toning adds a little but forgives a lot.
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A note on the idea of market grading based on toning and eye appeal: I feel strongly that this does not work with our current system. Here's why:
Let's say a coin has a technical grade of 65. However, it has exceptionally nice toning, so it is bumped up to a 66+ in the grading room. Now what does this mean? Well, it indicates that the coin is worth significantly more than a 65 would be and is probably closer in market value to that of a 66+. Ok, fine.
Now we take the 66+-graded coin and stick it in an auction house or in a dealer's Inventory. Does the market (i.e. the dealer selling the coin, or the buyers from the dealer, or the bidders in the auction to which it is consigned) value the coin based on what a 65-coin-with-nice-toning, aka a 66+ coin, is worth? No. They value it based on what a 66+-coin-with-nice-toning is worth. The grade on the slab does not say "65, +1.5 for toning", it says "66+". There is no indication as to whether the piece has been boosted for eye appeal or not, and the market cannot determine the respective technical and eye-appeal-boosted grades for the piece, because they are not graders and are not privy to the decisions made in the grading room. So buyers and sellers see a coin graded 66+ with nice toning, and they price it as a 66+ with nice toning, and it sells for the value of a 67 or a 67+ or a 68. So every time a coin is bumped up a grade or two for eye appeal, it has a good chance of being bumped up another grade or two or more in value once it enters the market.
In other words, market-value-graded coins are not really market-value-graded. Grades that take eye appeal into account are acting as ideal reflections of market value in the eyes of the graders, but in the eyes of the market, they act as technical grades. From this we end up with top pop coins that have already been boosted a point or two for eye appeal, that then proceed to realize five or ten additional multiples of the base market value for their boosted grade, because they are judged to be the most eye appealing examples of the grade on the label and thus the finest in existence. This leads to grossly exaggerated and erratic values in the marketplace and even more mess and confusion about what is worth how much.
If we are to continue using this problematic system, I am of the opinion that the boost for eye appeal should be added as an additional noted grade on the holder (ex. "65+1.5"). As far as registry sets go, they can still be worth the total of the two grades in registry points. The problem with implementing a change wouldn't be that it would cause too many technical issues (I think things would sort themselves out pretty quickly), but that both major grading companies would need to get on board and agree to simultaneously change the way they label coins, in order to keep the market stable.
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Some excellent comments so far. Much appreciated.
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@Rexford - well said and so true.
Nice website you've built too!
Should toning bump the grades on coins ???
Absolutely not.
Example: Collector owns MS 64 Morgan dollar with nice toning. MS 64 is the equivalent of nice choice uncirculated since MS 63 is the number grade for a basic choice uncirculated coin. The coin, at MS 64, is already maxed out on it's number. It's not a "gem," or MS 65, just because it has color that is nice.
Bumping grade because of toning makes a mockery of the number grading system.
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It's a conundrum. I would answer yes if coins with no toning also received a bump in grade. I would answer no if they do not. Is it ever the case that coins with no toning receive a bump in grade because they lack toning? All coins have some toning/tarnish. Should coins with unattractive toning be bumped down a grade? Does the "market" or the technical aspects determine the grade? How are the market/technical aspects intertwined when determining the grade? To what degree does personal taste come into play? Beauty is after all in the eye of the beholder. It's a conundrum.
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I agree with Mark and Keets, above. I first noticed grade bumps for coins with attractive toning around 2003. I went out and bought a 38D Buff in MS 66 in an OGH. The coin had beautiful gold toned rims and ice blue centers on obverse and reverse. It had one small tick on the Buff's midsection, which limited the coin's grade.
I submitted the coin and got it into a 7 holder because of the toning.
The problem with technical grading is that standards have changed over time. What is considered a RB copper is a good example of this. I also used to see dipped out, dead Seated and Trade $s in MS 65 holders. They were technically graded correctly, but a knowledgeable person would not buy the coin, unless it was offered at a steep discount.
Adding to the problem is that unfortunately, there is not universal consensus on what is an attractively toned coin. I have seen high grade, expensive Roosevelt Dimes in MS 67 + and MS 68 holders that to me, well, I won't get graphic, so I'll just say their toning was not attractive to me, at all.
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I do not believe a coin can improve “In Grade” once it leaves its dies. There is no way possible for this to happen IF we are talking technical grade. I do not believe that tarnish, or, toning can improve the coins “Technical” grade. I’ve always felt this way and I collect toned coins. I think some are absolutely beautiful because of the tarnish.
But, maybe we all should pause and digest that thought. A coin improving in technical grade after it leaves its dies. It doesn’t even sound right. Does it?
Happy hunting, Joe
Well I don't usually like to clean coins but in the case of toning I'd make an exception.
I thought this was interesting.
What Exactly Is Tarnish?
Down to the the nitty-gritty. Tarnish is a chemical reaction that occurs when silver comes into contact with humidity and chemicals in the air which causes silver to lose its beautiful luster. When the atoms of silver come into contact with oxygen, a layer of silver oxide is created as a protective barrier – much like rust. However, unlike rust, silver tarnish is self-limiting and the underlying layers are not affected by the outer layers of tarnish. This not only happens to silver, but also happens to copper, aluminum, brass and other similar, soft metals. Tarnishing is simply the product of oxidation.
Tarnish vs. Toning
When strictly speaking about tarnish on coins, the term “toning” is the preferred vernacular. Toning on coins is sometimes a desirable trait that is all subjective. We’ve all heard the term “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.” That term could never be more apparent than when it concerns coins. Some people prefer crisp, pristine, “white” silver coins. However, some people love the beauty of rainbow-toned silver Morgan Dollars.
Rainbow toning in Morgan Dollars is more common than in other silver coins. This is because many coins were stored in U.S. Treasury vaults in canvas bags for decades and in some cases (The Battle Creek and Continental Bank Hoard) for up to a century. The coins that were closest to the canvas were constantly in contact with a tiny concentration of sulfur. Sulfur was used in the bags to prevent rats from chewing through them. The silver in the coins reacted with the sulfur to form a thin layer of silver-sulfide. It is that thin film that refracts the light and creates the beautiful rainbow toning seen on many toned Morgan Dollars.
That's market acceptable because if properly done one usually can't tell the difference.
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Not necessarily grade but can increase price realized.
Toning is a preference vs Brilliant. Most of the market imo prefers brilliant.
Tarnished (toned) coins can get worse over time. Dark toning areas can detract from eye appeal and make it difficult even get blue sheet. Bob a coin club Friend and a victim of the oil price crash and buried in credit card debt (new wife) could not move a lot of his big ticket toner Commems. He eventually filed bankruptcy.
Just like abc coins in grade range there are abc toners in my view. It’s a subjective thing what a buyer may prefer once all cards on table.
Does toning on this coin (CAC65), looks like A toner to me - enhance it above MV for grade? I like it but does the next guy?
Lincoln cent coins are graded by toning RD...RB...B and the grade is bump up.. right?
Not quite.
Copper has a color designation. It's true that red is generally more valuable. But the numeric grade is not bumped for color.
As others have said, eye appeal is a component of grading and this applies to all coins. Outstanding eye appeal can bump a grade as much as two points, as PCGS asserts in its video on eye appeal grading.
Lance. (edit typo)
"Technical grade" is an important part of the Market Grade, which is a measure of the overall Quality of the item, which is an important part of its Value.
Think of the "technical grade" of a house: the size of the lot and sq. ft. of the building, the # of bedrooms and bathrooms, etc., the condition and any upgrades.
The market grade of the house would include the state, city and neighborhood, the schools, shopping, commute routes, etc.
LoL, real estate appraisers should just stick to the hard numbers, and leave the rest to "the market"?
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