If an error coin is missing the denomination, is it still money?
jmlanzaf
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I'm sort of serious here. [Yes, yes, it's an error coin so it's worth even MORE because it is UNIQUE and it is ART...yada...yada...yada.]
But isn't the act of putting the denomination on a coin with no (little) intrinsic value part of the necessity of monetizing it?
Is an unstruck quarter planchet actually spendable as a quarter? I would argue that it isn't. It was never actually minted.
So, if the off-center strike (or other error) is missing the "quarter dollar", does it have actual monetary (spending) value?
And, a follow-up question: If the off-center strike has no value, is it actually a medal and not a coin?
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I'm sorta cranky. Too much work!!! Slow day hereon CU so what about these:
Why isn't an error quarter w/o edge reeds a nickel?
Is a dime w/o a reverse a nickel?
Is a dollar struck on a tiny fragment only five cents?
Does this prove that Nickels are popular collectibles?
The dies that struck the planchet were monetized so yes
@jmlanzaf The unquarter that you imagine would likely go into a vending machine, and also no cashier ever "reads" a quarter dollar, so the coin would likely easily pass in circulation as well.
IIRC, "Monetization" happens when the sacked new coins pass from the Treasury to the Federal Reserve Bank. The coins are money when the books of the FRB says so. Monetization has nothing to do with striking.
If the coin were incomplete in the way you suggest, the best thing to do would be to send it to Mr. Weinberg!
Interesting questions with multiple arguable answers.
Coins without denominations: some were made that way on purpose (some early US coins, some British coins, etc.). If the law authorizing the coin specifies a design that includes a denomination, does that mean any coin struck under that law is legal tender even if a specific coin is an error and lacks the denomination (same for any of the devices/mottos required by law)?
A blank planchet is not a coin but as a practical matter it can be spent. as I suspect most vending machines would accept it since its weight and composition are correct and its diameter is very close to correct. Does the fact that a blank planchet was released by the mint with struck coins make it "monetized", even though wasn't struck?
More questions than answers....
It's money if you can transact with it. Or, if it has monetary value (since it has a provenance to the minting facility). How much (money/value) is a matter of many factors.
If a car doesn't have a set of wheels,
or an engine, don't we still call it a car?
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Actually, no.
If I have a car body without wheels or an engine, I call it a "frame" not a car.
coins didn't used to need denominations because their face value was their intrinsic value. Since that has been abandoned, I don't know that you can issue money without denominations. Although I don't know what the law requires.
I have received blank cent planchets in change... so they are - effectively - money. Cheers, RickO
You got lucky as IMO those were never struck by dies and are not coins and not monetized altho they are worth more than one cent each
OK, I guess I was stating the 'car' comparison without
thinking of it as a 'frame'. Picked the wrong comparison.
To non-car folks, the general term would be
'gee, look at that car without any wheels.'
....but I happily withdraw my hasty car analogy.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
There's a certain Carribean coin that will work in vending machines as an "unquarter", that doesn't make it legally money.
It's not "money" nowadays until the accountants/record keepers at the Federal Reserve Bank say so, by recording/ marking it on their balance sheets. Coins at the U.S. Mint are just an industrial product. No good until the accountants say they are good.
Most eggs aren't chickens either.
Since when are dies monetized?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
They aren't so I was wrong, but by striking the coins they monetize the planchets even if its an off center.
I> @PerryHall said:
Since it helped to make the argument.
I really don't know the answer here. I mean, if I have a copper-nickel slug that is the same size and weight of a quarter, it is not a quarter and it is not worth a quarter. Somewhere between striking and transfer to the Treasury, a coin becomes money. I'm not sure where and the internet isn't completely helpful. And I have to believe the printing of paper and the striking of planchets is necessary but not sufficient to become money.
But there has to be more than just whacking it.
Is a dollar design on a quarter planchet worth $1 or a quarter? IT was struck with the $1 die, but since it was likely "monetized" in a bag of quarters, it's a quarter. What if my $1 on quarter leaves the mint in a bag of dollars, then is it worth $1 even though it's on a quarter planchet?
Obviously, these are not life-changing questions. But there MUST be some legal definition.
Admitting when one is wrong shows honesty.
Being wrong on one point doesn't make the "argument" wrong especially if admitted to and corrected.
I would say there is no argument except in your head as error coins are struck by mint dies that monetize them.
I can't find any U.S. Code that says that striking coins with dies "monetizes" them. That MAY be necessary, but I don't know that it is sufficient.
I would also presume that you couldn't strike a cent planchet with a John Adams die and call it a cent. You know the government, there MUST be an actual legal definition.
Is a nail struck by a quarter die actually a quarter?
So is this coin actually monetized at 11 Cents or One Cent? Per your OP
I DON'T KNOW?!?!?!?
Several years ago there was an auction of coins that were put away by a bank manager in Hawaiian banker. Someone told a story about appraising the collection. As they were going through all of the really impressive, amazing pieces stashed away, they found a small envelope labeled 'valueless coins'
The envelope contained two blank planchets (one each for a gold eagle and double eagle, if I recall).
The bidders did NOT agree that they were valueless. :-)
But did the government?
Remember this is part of the crux of the issue with the 1933 $20 gold. It was not considered "monetized" because it had not been transferred (legally) from the Mint to Treasury. Again, that step is necessary but is it sufficient? I mean, if I substitute a bag of nails for a bag of gold in a shipment, does Treasury monetize the nails by accepting delivery?
There MUST be a legal definition somewhere. Damn internet isn't cooperating. I might need a different query.
The answer is One Cent since it was counted (monetized) when it left the mint as a Lincoln Cent.
Well, it SHOULD be in U.S. Code 31
I still haven't found it spelled out. It does define the coin denominations based on diameter and weight. Which (new thread? LOL) would mean that broadstruck coins or clips are not coins...
https://law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5112
Per these definitions of what constitutes a coin, it appears that a coin of the wrong size (broad-struck, clipped planchets, etc.) are NOT coins. It also appears that coins missing certain design elements (including denomination) are not coins.
What if it left the mint as a dime and then got dropped into the cent hopper by a mischievous mint employee?
A vending machine wouldn't be able to tell if they are struck or not, so I say it's money.
Collector, occasional seller
You say or the Vending Machine says?
How do we know that??? If it's on a dime planchet, couldn't it have been in the dime bag?
See U.S. Code 31
Both if I'm the one depositing it
Collector, occasional seller
This was the precedent I was thinking of. Getting struck by dies did not save all those poor 1933 double eagles (except for one).
As for monetization occurring when the mint hands off to the treasury, what about the collector coins that the mint sells? They are handed off by the mint to the fulfillment service.
I think it is more of a ledger transfer than a physical transfer. But you would think that there would be some legally mandated, very specific process.
I think the comparison was not invalid.
If I am getting my tires rotated does my car become just a frame once the wheels are all removed? What about if I am changing a flat tire - does it stay a car as long as some wheels are on it?
To me a frame is a stripped skeleton. If it has substantial parts on it I still see it as a car. An incomplete one, but a car nonetheless.
But let's not even talk about cars with uni-body construction.
LOL, it depends on the car make and year. Look up the difference between a car "frame" and its "body." I suppose you can argue that modern unibody vehicles have no actual "frame." Wink.
Is it money in its country of issue? If so, that WOULD MAKE IT MONEY.
LOL. I don't know what the legal definition of a "car" is, but I'm sure there is one. When do you need to register it or inspect it or insure it? There's all kind of legalities. If a car without wheels is legally a car, so be it. That does NOT however mean that a lump of metal that doesn't say "one cent" is actually a cent.
The 1933 double eagles definitely gave us the current definition in the Fed's eyes: It's monetized when they say it's monetized. In the case of most coins, if an error coin left the mint and was distributed as a dime, for example, then it's a dime.
I think the Langbord case showed us that there are not well defined statues for every possible edge case. And even if there were, they could be invalidated in legal proceedings.
I mean you can get even further edge cases. What about the rare screw or nail that get struck by the dies?
Who cares, it is worth a few hundred bucks. Anyway, to answer your question it is monetized as a dime by its composition and original design.
Well, it might be money in Bermuda, that doesn't make it legal tender in the U.S. which is what I meant. Thank you for pointing out my inexactitude.
What if it's not clearly spelled out?
Yes, I mentioned that above. If a nail leaves the mint in a bag of dimes [though I doubt that's how they leave], you COULD argue that it was monetized as a dime. BUT, it lacks the proper size and weight and might well even lack the denomination, so it seems ridiculous to consider it to BE a dime. Doesn't it?
At the very least, you should thank me for giving you the opportunity to post error coin pictures.
That coin is the wrong diameter to be a cent, so it might not be a cent!!
I think you can answer your own question. May we please see more?
From U.S. code 31
(a)The Secretary of the Treasury may mint and issue only the following coins:
(1)a dollar coin that is 1.043 inches in diameter.
(2)a half dollar coin that is 1.205 inches in diameter and weighs 11.34 grams.
(3)a quarter dollar coin that is 0.955 inch in diameter and weighs 5.67 grams.
(4)a dime coin that is 0.705 inch in diameter and weighs 2.268 grams.
(5)a 5-cent coin that is 0.835 inch in diameter and weighs 5 grams.
(6)except as provided under subsection (c) of this section, a one-cent coin that is 0.75 inch in diameter and weighs 3.11 grams.
(7)A fifty dollar gold coin that is 32.7 millimeters in diameter, weighs 33.931 grams, and contains one troy ounce of fine gold.
(8)A twenty-five dollar gold coin that is 27.0 millimeters in diameter, weighs 16.966 grams, and contains one-half troy ounce of fine gold.
(9)A ten dollar gold coin that is 22.0 millimeters in diameter, weighs 8.483 grams, and contains one-fourth troy ounce of fine gold.
(10)A five dollar gold coin that is 16.5 millimeters in diameter, weighs 3.393 grams, and contains one-tenth troy ounce of fine gold.
(11)A $50 gold coin that is of an appropriate size and thickness, as determined by the Secretary, weighs 1 ounce, and contains 99.99 percent pure gold.
(12)A $25 coin of an appropriate size and thickness, as determined by the Secretary, that weighs 1 troy ounce and contains .9995 fine palladium.
Does anyone else find it interesting that they do not define the weight of the dollar coin?
This one is the right diameter
Is this monetized as two cents? ...
ABSOLUTELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY NOT!!! The U.S. does not allow for a 2 cent coin. That coin also doesn't say "two cents" it says "one cent" twice (mostly).