Well, Paypal's finally doing it. Another blow to online sellers.
amwldcoin
Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
Dear, XXXXX XXXXXXXXX
Earlier this year, we notified you that we were updating our User Agreement to change our refund policy. We want to let you know that the policy change is going into effect beginning on November 1, 2019.
In line with industry practice and according to our updated policy, we will not charge a fee to process refunds, but the fees from the original transaction will not be returned. This policy will not apply to duplicate transactions, voids and most disputed transactions. You can review the PayPal User Agreement for more information on our return policies.
We only adjust our policies when we are confident the changes are fair and aligned with the value that our services provide to your business.
PayPal brings you more than just payment processing – your business has access to our platform’s full suite of tools, products and support built to scale with you, such as customized invoicing to help you get paid sooner, access to business loans, world class fraud monitoring, seller protection for eligible transactions, and business services designed to simplify your day-to-day operations.
PayPal invests in bringing you buyers – with over 268 million active account holders worldwide, PayPal works hard for your business to make sure we continue to bring your buyers the shopping experiences they have grown to associate with our brand. PayPal is the most-used digital wallet** and PayPal shoppers complete their checkout 88% of the time on average, helping you close more sales.+
If you have questions about any of these changes or your account, please don’t hesitate to get in touch with us.
Thank you for being a PayPal customer. We appreciate your business and look forward to continuing to help you grow and succeed in the future.
The team at PayPal
Comments
"Thank you for being a PayPal customer. We appreciate your business and look forward to continuing to help you grow and succeed in the future."
Reminds me of a local bank years ago that was one of the first to charge a fee for having a saving account. They insisted it was so they could "serve you better".
Next thing coming is ebay won't refund the FVF fees on a return. Watch and see!
This is a terrible policy. I wonder how many business will drop PayPal as accepted payment due to it?
Anyone have any guesses?
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
another business who only cares about their stock holders, the people that make them the money come in last
Squeeze
I’m very fond of the bst
Reminds me of the slogan a phone company had years ago in eastern PA. 'We may be the only phone company in the area, but we try not to act like it."
My War Nickels https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/nickels/jefferson-nickels-specialty-sets/jefferson-nickels-fs-basic-war-set-circulation-strikes-1942-1945/publishedset/94452
I think it's time to force ebay into allowing Checks and Money Orders again. Technically it's against the law for them to force sellers to only accept ebay or your own payment processing that is probably H to get squared away. It's restriction of business trade as defined by the law!
No. It's time for ICTA to start DOING something.
They seem able to inform about it but they..DO .... nothing.
https://www.ictaonline.org/wayfair-update--states-begin-to-implement-sales-tax-collections
That's the sales tax fiasco. They probably won't even address the PayPal issue.
I foresee re-stocking fees in listing.
Is it possible to do this with bulk listing tools?
There is no way to do this at all on eBay. All a buyer has to do is file a SNAD and you can neither refuse the return nor charge a fee.
Ok then I guess not selling at all might be the way to go out of business.
None. ALL CREDIT CARDS have the exact same policy. Some credit cards even charge a SECOND fee on a return/refund.
I figured you would be the 1st to defend PayPal!
So how can we as ebayers force ebay to allow payment by checks or Money Orders only? I figure it will take a lawsuit which ebay will fight to death but they would loose. I lost many sales from people who refuse to use Paypal thanks to ebay requiring instant payment. I finally figured out I could send them an offer for a penny less and it worked!
HUH???
If you want to take a check, money order, or rocks as payment you can. All eBay requires is that you take at least 1 electronic form of payment. So if you actually lost sales from not taking a money order that's on you alone.
I did not know this.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
That is not true! How about showing me where the option is when listing an item? In the past I had quite a few buyers who wanted to buy via Money Order...the problem was ebay required immediate payment even though I don't require that in my listings. Before I figured out the make an offer thing...the only way we were able to do a deal was to take it off ebay which I feel absolutely no guilt not paying ebay for the transaction. Luckily many of those who wanted to buy with a Money Order understood google is your friend AmeriWorld Coins!
Used to be but not anymore. eBay has changed their policy on that. Unless your listing is in the Coins & Paper Money > Bullion > Wholesale Bullion category, checks and money orders are not allowed.
Checks and money orders are the “other” payment option. Basically, scan and deposit.
Do not know if you need a business PP or if regular PP does it.
Neither did I until I looked into it after PayPal made the change. That's what they mean by "industry standard". If you look at info from CC processors they explain it (justify it?) by arguing that there is an inherent risk undertaken in the transaction (CC guarantees etc.) Those are not undone by a chargeback. In fact, they have to insure the return payment as well.
Obviously, before anyone jumps on the rationale, they could roll that into their payment processing fee on all other orders. 2.255% instead of 2.55% or whatever. But they don't.
It's far more noticeable to the "average Joe" who never sees the fee that their CC eats and who might have fewer transactions to spread the cost over.
For me who does 3000 or so PayPal transactions per year with 4-6 returns, it is a tiny fraction of a percent of sales [0.006%, to be exact] which is why I don't worry about it.
Obviously, it can really be an issue if you sell one $10k coin per year and that's the one that gets returned.
It is technically against eBay policy. But if a customer wanted to pay that way, eBay has no way to stop them. They just won't offer any of the seller or buyer protections on the resulting transaction.
That's not a defense of PayPal. It's a simple observation. They are not outside of the normal business practices for payment processing.
There are a lot of challenges in the current environment. The 0.006% of Sales ($) that this represents isn't reason enough to quit. The Internet Sales Tax is a bigger headwind by about a factor of 1000.
Here is eBay's current policy:
The following payment methods, which are offered at eBay checkout, are allowed:
-PayPal
-PayPal Credit
-Credit card or debit card processed through the seller's Internet merchant account
-Payment upon pickup
Listings in one of our approved categories may offer the following additional payment options:
Bank-to-bank transfers (also known as bank wire transfers and bank cash transfers)
Checks
Money orders
Online payment services (for example, Allpay.net, CertaPay, Fiserv, Nochex.com, XOOM)
https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/payment-policies/accepted-payments-policy?id=4269
Note that checks and money orders are only approved in the Coins & Paper Money > Bullion > Wholesale Bullion category.
I was referring to PP not eBay.
Not using eBay’s checkout means both parties are not covered by eBay. As long as one gets the money via PP then on eBay you can select payment received. Won’t be covered by eBays guarantees but still have PP’s guarantees.
Going outside of both channels is, of course, a buyer/seller beware.
Sorry, I misunderstood.
I have noticed there are some on eBay that do not use eBay or PP. Not sure how that works other than buyer has to wait for a message from seller on how to pay. (This is from reading random feedback comments, some are hilarious, too)
A check can be claimed as stolen/counterfeited by the account holder long, long after it is written. One of the worst ways to take payment through the mail from a stranger.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Ebay requires seller to offer some form of electronic payment.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Sure, all that's true. The discussion wasn't about whether or not taking checks was risky. Up to this point, at least.
+1
You are the one that brought checks into the discussion. LOL:
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
djm posted : October 22, 2019 2:15PM
If you want to take a check, money order, or rocks as payment you can.
I replied : October 22, 2019 2:44PM
Used to be but not anymore. eBay has changed their policy on that. Unless your listing is in the Coins & Paper Money > Bullion > Wholesale Bullion category, checks and money orders are not allowed.
LOL yourself.
No apology necessary.
Except how does this help you? PP still charges 2.9% no matter how you fund the transaction. It's only free to move the money into your own account, not someone else's.
I lost track. I was only replying to the post about payments via checks and MOs. eBay does not but PP does.
Everyone takes their share.
Cash is King!
>
Are you an attorney with significant experience in this area? My slightly educated opinion is that eBay would not loose, but rather their arguments would be pretty tight. It is their platform and they have a very compelling reason of protecting users.
If I want to pay with PayPal and your business doesn't accept PayPal, will I win a lawsuit against you for "restriction of business trade as defined by the law"?
this is going to cost high volume sellers like apmex a lot of money, a return of a pre-33 $20 gold will cost them 45 dollars, they probably average 1 percent in returns. a return will put the sale in the red
Probably not....Just like their cut-rate ebay fees, I'm sure they get a Paypal break too.......
idiots
BHNC #203
Uber and Lyft are a bit different as they have been losing massive amounts of money. They were basically giving investor money to drivers and riders at a loss (savings vs. taxi). Now they are trying to become profitable businesses.
There is nothing wrong with a single sale in the Red. You can't look at this, as a business, on an item by item basis. Any coin under about $50 that gets returned to me will end up in the red just because of the round trip shipping costs that I have to swallow. But that cost should not be considered relevant to only that single atom but spread over all items sold.
The proper way for Apmex (or anyone else) is to look at the 3% of 1% [using your numbers] as a 0.03% cost on each item sold.
[Separate note: I would be surprised if Apmex has 1% returns on a $ weighted basis. They sell a LOT of bullion which I doubt gets returned very often, especially when paid by wire transfer.
The result might be the same, but you are suggesting motivations that may not be present. A business start up will intentionally lose money to build market share. They then try to move to profitability. It is not a desire to screw the customer. Businesses love their customers. But you can't expect a business to lose money indefinitely and stay in business. If you like Uber, you want them to be profitable so you can continue to use them.
$28 for an Ebay store. 6.15% vs 2.5% when Ebay began. Sales tax now imposed and collected by Ebay. 30% hike in Paypal fee from 2.2% to 2.9%. Paypal fee no longer refundable. Soaring shipping costs.
I only see good things ahead.
I just access the risk and adjust the markup equation accordingly.
A high volume low markup seller may leave eBay completely and do business from their own website. Not something I would miss.
At this point current market conditions my major concern. Returns are very infrequent for me but any change in risk / cost structure of course matters.
Bullion coins l prefer buy sight seen at shows.
Pay Pow. ( you read it here, first).
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Agreed.
Of all the headwinds, the PayPal return issue is about 10th on the list. It amounts to about 0.005% of my business. That raises costs by 0.005% - essentially zero. The sales tax issue is a much bigger headwind. And nothing is worse than market weakness - doesn't matter what you are charging if you can't make a sale.
Some of those things are true. I wouldn't call shipping costs exactly "soaring".
Don't forget the big one: coin market sucks currently.
But the Paypal fee no longer being refundable has a functionally zero impact on business.
Anyone who spends more than 3 seconds worrying about this change hasn't done the math.
I did the math. Refund on a $2000 coin is a $58 Paypal fee hit. Plus a $30 whack on two way shipping. That is $88 bucks because the high bidder had remorse. No seller will be pleased with that kind of hit on a low margin PCGS graded Morgan or Saint.
And what happens when a casual or perhaps vindictive Ebay buyer makes numerous approval type purchases with Ebay's easy and free returns to creating cost and mayhem to coin sellers.
True that to the seller of $40 bobbleheads the new policy is incidental. But this a PCGS coin forum and the coins slabbed by this top grader are often high dollar and low margin and the transaction costs are important to the memebers of this board.