1909 VDB Matte Proof matching markers.

levigarrett101

I know this subject has been posted over forums for years now. For how rare this coin is 99.9% of the time it is shown and proven not to be a VDB matte proof when posted. After examination I have located each die marker to determine this could very well be a 1909 VDB matte proof. this link Shows every marker used to determine.
http://www.lincolncentcollection.com/1909vdbdiecharacteristics.php

This is a statement from Heritage Auctions about the markers.

“Most known specimens, including the present coin, show some diagnostic die markers that aid attribution. The "diagonal die polishing lines on and in front of Lincoln's nose" (Lange) are bold on this piece, but the diagonal die scratch behind Lincoln's coat and below TY is extremely faint; the coin has to be tilted just so to discern it. The crescent-shaped die chip on the reverse, to the right of M in UNUM, is also quite faint and tends to blend in with the streaky brown toning.”

Following pics are my coin and from the link. Hope you all enjoy.
!

abcde12345

Ray Charles could see that ain't no proof.

blu62vette

Isn't it missing the most major marker of the die scratches off the nose? These should be easily seen in the full coin pic. Rims look wrong.

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abcde12345

Look at the softness of the reverse rim, especially so between 700 and 1000. The obverse rim is also too beveled to be a proof. Don't beat yourself up though, many well-struck business strikes look almost like a proof and add the twinkle of hope among the owner of the coin and the belief factor rises.
Simply wishing though just doesn't make it so.

divecchia

@levigarrett101 said:

@blu62vette said:
Isn't it missing the most major marker of the die scratches off the nose? These should be easily seen in the full coin pic. Rims look wrong.

Or on this one. If you go and look at all the ones graded not all of them are easily seen. Believe me I have done my homework. These pictures are for you.

If you're so sure about your assessment why argue about, just send it in to be graded and be done with it.

Donato

gonzer

The way this post is assembled confuses the bejeez outta me.

WaterSport

Ok, lets say the coin was made from proof dies. That does not make it a proof. Thats because proof is a manufacturing process. That process includes making special dies, and special preparation of the blanks and hammering the heck out the blank to bring up the details. So thats a business strike since the planchet itself is wrong, and the strike/relief is wrong. That just my opinion and as others said, send it in, we would love to hear the outcome.

WS

ricko

Interesting..... Please send it for authentication and let us know... Might be good to include all the photographic evidence when you send it in.... Cheers, RickO

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JBK

Why are you arguing with people giving their opinion!?

Just send it to PCGS and get it slabbed as a matte proof.

You don't need to prove anything to us - we don't work at PCGS.

mustangmanbob

Although the airlines have detestable rules, the rule about weight limits and carry on bags should apply here.

You are WAY over your limit on pictures that are uncropped and lack clarity.

Red Card.

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SanctionII

Send your coin into PCGS for grading. If it grades as a Matte Proof great for you.

If it does not grade as a Matte Proof you can try to persuade PCGS that it is wrong and that you are right.

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ChrisH821

The pictures you have taken are kind of blurry but it looks like I see some of the markers. Unfortunately this doesn't necessarily mean it's a proof. It just doesn't look as sharp as the examples, like the field transition to the devices is more rounded. For the $50 or so that a submission would cost you may as well send it in to get four professional opinions on it. At the very least it's a nice RB 09 VDB

clarkbar04

If it was struck from used proof dies it would have the same die characteristics. Still doesn't make it a proof.

I have a 1915 buffalo nickel with all of the proof die characteristics, but it is a business strike struck from proof dies.

jmlanzaf

@levigarrett101 said:
I am not arguing. I get simple not it answers when clearly there is something going on here. People don’t bother looking at the facts before they open their mouth. These forums are full of nay sayers who have not positive outlook for others. Especially when something rare is brought up. Usually jumps to nope right away! Well I don’t agree with quick nopes when there are matches across the board.

For the first time, I am somewhat sympathetic to you. But you do have a tendency to come off as very abrasive. People's somewhat blunt, possibly mis-informed, responses to you might just be fruit of the "branch mint proof" tree.

So, let's all take a deep breath here.

1. It does appear to possibly have the markers.
2. It's possible it's a matte proof. I think a few of the responses are from people that are thinking of modern proofs. Some of the matte proofs are really tough to assign.
3. If you are so certain, just submit it and brag about it when the TVs arrive! I'm not sure what we're arguing about.

MFeld

The coin appears to have some at least of the markers, but doesn't look like a Proof.

Regardless of what you say, how many times you say it and how many pictures you post, that's not going to turn the coin into a Proof, Best of luck with your submission.

JBK

@clarkbar04 said:
If it was struck from used proof dies it would have the same die characteristics. Still doesn't make it a proof.

I have a 1915 buffalo nickel with all of the proof die characteristics, but it is a business strike struck from proof dies.

I was thinking the same thing but I was afraid to mention it.

But in any case, a valid point.

Relaxn

Proof dies were used to strike business/circulating coins. We see it a lot in the 1916. You are getting all no and not it's because historically speaking it is usually NOT IT. In the end what is said in this forum does not matter. You have the ultimate authentication right at your fingertips;. Send the damn coin in to PCGS or some other TPG?
For me it looks like a run of the mill Business strike. Rims are not right, appearance is not right... Presence of potential die markers just show that obverse proof dies were used to strike business strikes... But I believe you already know this and are just being disingenuous...

Have a good day. Good hit on the 56-d Full steps top pop. Keep searching!

jmlanzaf

@levigarrett101 said:
How do you explain the exact die markers that I clearly posted. They use those to determine. One set of dies. Explain that?

@abcde12345 said:

I don't know, but just because all 1909 matte proofs came from one set of dies doesn't mean that all coins from those dies were matte proofs. Again, I don't know, I'm asking: were any business strikes made from those same dies?

robec

Do you have a clear photo of the VDB?

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ChrisH821

@levigarrett101 said:

@ChrisH821 said:
The pictures you have taken are kind of blurry but it looks like I see some of the markers. Unfortunately this doesn't necessarily mean it's a proof. It just doesn't look as sharp as the examples, like the field transition to the devices is more rounded. For the $50 or so that a submission would cost you may as well send it in to get four professional opinions on it. At the very least it's a nice RB 09 VDB

@MFeld said:
The coin appears to have some at least of the markers, but doesn't look like a Proof.

Regardless of what you say, how many times you say it and how many pictures you post, that's not going to turn the coin into a Proof, Best of luck with your submission.

Only one set of dies used. So what could that mean? It has the markers but isn’t a proof? Now how can that make sense?

The Mint is a business. Would it make sense to strike a few hundred proofs and then throw away a perfectly good set of dies? Now how can that make sense?

ChrisH821

I'm not stating that it ISN'T a proof. It just is not likely and to my non-professional eyes it doesn't look like it has the quality of a proof strike. Spend the few bucks and send it in.

jmlanzaf

@levigarrett101 said:

@ChrisH821 said:
The pictures you have taken are kind of blurry but it looks like I see some of the markers. Unfortunately this doesn't necessarily mean it's a proof. It just doesn't look as sharp as the examples, like the field transition to the devices is more rounded. For the $50 or so that a submission would cost you may as well send it in to get four professional opinions on it. At the very least it's a nice RB 09 VDB

@MFeld said:
The coin appears to have some at least of the markers, but doesn't look like a Proof.

Regardless of what you say, how many times you say it and how many pictures you post, that's not going to turn the coin into a Proof, Best of luck with your submission.

Only one set of dies used. So what could that mean? It has the markers but isn’t a proof? Now how can that make sense?

as @ChrisH821 mentioned, it was quite common for the Mint to use dies until they broke down. Die preparation, especially early in our history, was very expensive.

If you want an obvious example of die use consider the 1942/41 coins. Why didn't they just throw out the 1941 dies and start with fresh 1942 dies? Why are there all of the overdates on early American Copper coins?

Or, there's this thread right here on the forum:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/779895/1921-peace-dollar-vam-1h-struck-from-satin-proof-dies

jmlanzaf

@levigarrett101 said:

@ChrisH821 said:
The pictures you have taken are kind of blurry but it looks like I see some of the markers. Unfortunately this doesn't necessarily mean it's a proof. It just doesn't look as sharp as the examples, like the field transition to the devices is more rounded. For the $50 or so that a submission would cost you may as well send it in to get four professional opinions on it. At the very least it's a nice RB 09 VDB

@MFeld said:
The coin appears to have some at least of the markers, but doesn't look like a Proof.

Regardless of what you say, how many times you say it and how many pictures you post, that's not going to turn the coin into a Proof, Best of luck with your submission.

Only one set of dies used. So what could that mean? It has the markers but isn’t a proof? Now how can that make sense?

If you don't start talking more nicely to people, they are going to start thinking that you're an alt of mine.

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joeykoins

Sh-h-h-h! Heather?

ChrisH821

So did you send it in?

ChrisH821

Crickets
(sorry, I had to bump it)