I have been saying for 10-15 years that there are too many of three different things: too many dealers, too many shows, too many auctions. all three of those things grew in ranks when prices started escalating with PM's. if there were less dealers there would be less shows and less auctions.
I don't know why more people in the Hobby don't think that's a good thing. less dealers means less competition and less shows, that means more collectors at the individual shows and probably the ability for dealers to sell more at retail. that should translate to less need for an auction.
why wouldn't more people be interested in private sales over a public auction sale??
@keets said:
I have been saying for 10-15 years that there are too many of three different things: too many dealers, too many shows, too many auctions. all three of those things grew in ranks when prices started escalating with PM's. if there were less dealers there would be less shows and less auctions.
I don't know why more people in the Hobby don't think that's a good thing. less dealers means less competition and less shows, that means more collectors at the individual shows and probably the ability for dealers to sell more at retail. that should translate to less need for an auction.
why wouldn't more people be interested in private sales over a public auction sale??
I love auctions for two reasons: it is generally buyers competing for a true market price and the larger venues produce good historical records. One good thing about Heritage and Stack's is that they have good auction records. You can get eBay auction records from WorthPoint as well. With individual dealers, there's often no record of the transaction, for pedigree tracing and pricing purposes.
For the collector, it’s different. They usually have a much narrower want list. When the right item comes along, that they have been seeking for a long time, the buyers’ fee is less important. Some of them bid as if there is no buyers’ fee. I know. I’ve been up against those people.
I don’t understand what impact the buyer’s premium has here.
Either a collector bids with a limit or not. If he does, he can back out the buyer’s premium, when calculating his maximum bid. If he doesn’t set a bid and stick to it, it wont really matter if there’s a buyer’s premium (or the amount of one, if applicable).
If there is a buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, the vast majority of whom lower their hammer bid limits. And if there is no buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, who will be bidding higher than they would if there were no buyer’s premium.
That’s because you assume that bidders are logical. Most Dealers are logical. Some collectors are not. I constantly end up bidding against people who pay little attention to the buyers’ fee, and who ignore all previous auction results and catalog guidelines.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
For the collector, it’s different. They usually have a much narrower want list. When the right item comes along, that they have been seeking for a long time, the buyers’ fee is less important. Some of them bid as if there is no buyers’ fee. I know. I’ve been up against those people.
I don’t understand what impact the buyer’s premium has here.
Either a collector bids with a limit or not. If he does, he can back out the buyer’s premium, when calculating his maximum bid. If he doesn’t set a bid and stick to it, it wont really matter if there’s a buyer’s premium (or the amount of one, if applicable).
If there is a buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, the vast majority of whom lower their hammer bid limits. And if there is no buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, who will be bidding higher than they would if there were no buyer’s premium.
That’s because you assume that bidders are logical. Most Dealers are logical. Some collectors are not. I constantly end up bidding against people who pay little attention to the buyers’ fee, and who ignore all previous auction results and catalog guidelines.
If they are ignoring all previous auction results, including the buyers' fee, perhaps the buyers' fee isn't the issue, but that the buyer just wants the coin, regardless of cost?
For the collector, it’s different. They usually have a much narrower want list. When the right item comes along, that they have been seeking for a long time, the buyers’ fee is less important. Some of them bid as if there is no buyers’ fee. I know. I’ve been up against those people.
I don’t understand what impact the buyer’s premium has here.
Either a collector bids with a limit or not. If he does, he can back out the buyer’s premium, when calculating his maximum bid. If he doesn’t set a bid and stick to it, it wont really matter if there’s a buyer’s premium (or the amount of one, if applicable).
If there is a buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, the vast majority of whom lower their hammer bid limits. And if there is no buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, who will be bidding higher than they would if there were no buyer’s premium.
That’s because you assume that bidders are logical. Most Dealers are logical. Some collectors are not. I constantly end up bidding against people who pay little attention to the buyers’ fee, and who ignore all previous auction results and catalog guidelines.
I don’t assume that all dealer or collector bidders are logical. If the illogical collector bidders in your example are going to ignore the buyer’s premium and bid too much, wouldn’t they also bid too much if there were no buyer’s premium?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
For the collector, it’s different. They usually have a much narrower want list. When the right item comes along, that they have been seeking for a long time, the buyers’ fee is less important. Some of them bid as if there is no buyers’ fee. I know. I’ve been up against those people.
I don’t understand what impact the buyer’s premium has here.
Either a collector bids with a limit or not. If he does, he can back out the buyer’s premium, when calculating his maximum bid. If he doesn’t set a bid and stick to it, it wont really matter if there’s a buyer’s premium (or the amount of one, if applicable).
If there is a buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, the vast majority of whom lower their hammer bid limits. And if there is no buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, who will be bidding higher than they would if there were no buyer’s premium.
That’s because you assume that bidders are logical. Most Dealers are logical. Some collectors are not. I constantly end up bidding against people who pay little attention to the buyers’ fee, and who ignore all previous auction results and catalog guidelines.
If they are ignoring all previous auction results, including the buyers' fee, perhaps the buyers' fee isn't the issue, but that the buyer just wants the coin, regardless of cost?
That was my point, which you made better than I did.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I quit auctions because of fees. It got out of hand in my opinion. Sure, I could reduce my bids and guess the final price and if taxes will be charged. I'll just buy face to face from a trusted dealer/friend.
For the collector, it’s different. They usually have a much narrower want list. When the right item comes along, that they have been seeking for a long time, the buyers’ fee is less important. Some of them bid as if there is no buyers’ fee. I know. I’ve been up against those people.
I don’t understand what impact the buyer’s premium has here.
Either a collector bids with a limit or not. If he does, he can back out the buyer’s premium, when calculating his maximum bid. If he doesn’t set a bid and stick to it, it wont really matter if there’s a buyer’s premium (or the amount of one, if applicable).
If there is a buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, the vast majority of whom lower their hammer bid limits. And if there is no buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, who will be bidding higher than they would if there were no buyer’s premium.
That’s because you assume that bidders are logical. Most Dealers are logical. Some collectors are not. I constantly end up bidding against people who pay little attention to the buyers’ fee, and who ignore all previous auction results and catalog guidelines.
If they are ignoring all previous auction results, including the buyers' fee, perhaps the buyers' fee isn't the issue, but that the buyer just wants the coin, regardless of cost?
That was my point, which you made better than I did.😉
I think there are two types of buyers here:
those that don't factor in the buyers' fee and accidentally end up bidding too much
those that will bid more than a reasonable person would, regardless of buyer's fee - this is when passion beats logic
I was always under the impression Bill was talking about the first type of buyer, which I can see on occasion, but if they are bidding well above past auction records, the buyer may be of the second type.
It happens to me constantly. Do you guys ever find a fair value at auction? I almost never do. The buyers’ fee just rubs it in. I am consistently the high bid buyer for many results posted on “Coin Facts.”
Every time this happens, I need to post the results here, and you analyze the results.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
Some collectors are not. I constantly end up bidding against people who pay little attention to the buyers’ fee, and who >ignore all previous auction results and catalog guidelines.
If bidders are ignoring all previous auction results and catalog guidelines, have you considered the possibility that the previous auction results and catalog guidelines were not truly indicative of the market at the time the auction was held?
@ldhair said:
I quit auctions because of fees. It got out of hand in my opinion. Sure, I could reduce my bids and guess the final price and if taxes will be charged. I'll just buy face to face from a trusted dealer/friend.
Agreed. The trouble is the quality at the shows has died up.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
A properly graded coin that is priced near the PCGS “Coin Facts” which people say here tend to be high.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
without needing to know anything about the coins you're bidding on I would only suggest that what you describe is how prices change. if everyone bidding at an auction only bid to a certain level than prices would be stagnant and the key factor would be who could reach the right dollar amount first. I probably bid like you do, I have a certain price I am willing to pay and stop when it gets there. some bidders don't care, though, they just want the coin.
@BillJones said:
The bottom line is, the higher the buyers’ fee, the less attractive the auction venue becomes for buyers and maybe some sellers. All fees have their limits in spite of what some theorists might think.
NO
Sorry, @BillJones, but this is a gross oversimplification.
"Some" buyers and "some" sellers would range how far statistically?
Only the top three potential purchasers have any impact upon each, every and any auction purchase. All other values assigned or assumed are irrelevant in that ineffable instantaneous moment when the hammer falls. There could be no one else within 50% or 100 buyers at 2 ticks less. Each and every one knows exactly, to the penny. what they will pay. Some have infinite budgets, boundless imaginations and exquisite search engines and others here on Earth focus more towards specialized niches, CDN, auction prices and ability to multiply and divide by 1/6th (16.67%), 1/5th (20%) and 1/4th (25%) without a pen and paper.
Whatever reductio ab adsurdum scenario one might concoct, it's already happened. The "market" has seen it, and various participants have missed it, We will suffer and benefit from the aggregate of these moments. How deep and poetic. Here's the story... I pity the fool who expects to buy much other than "stuff" at auction nowadays without "paying up", "Usually" and "mostly"
BUT
if you don't know to the penny how much your purchases cost because you failed to factor in your savings on gas or postage if you use eCheck you can still have a fighting chance without over-thinking.
in a tried and true practical online arena, you overpay 6% from the next two highest bidders and you're often a buyer. Three stupid crazy illogical assholes with weird theories about rarity and quality and more cents than sense and you can spend almost half a decade chasing 1877 20c's at 20% over what you know is stupid reasonable for the issue.
You and I, @Bill, are not the norm. We're not close to typical. Either of us, old, tired and jaded, has the capacity to wire the other $100K the next day on ANYTHING we might whimsically purchase with an expectation of making 12% in 3 months. Or holding until we die.
Exclusive of what we might collect.
Any such decision would be based on a bottom line. Definable. Calculable. Risk-adjusted. Et cetera
There is always such a number. Everyone who finds the fourth-grade arithmetic adjustment too cumbersome is just totally screwed.
But they are a truly insignificant market factor. The "buyers fee" is a construct used to manipulate potential consigners.
@BillJones I feel your pain. It is motivating you to continue to repeat essentially meaningless (statistically) but confusing drivel.
I have a moral obligation to take advantage of the ignorance and foolishness you spread. My heirs will donate to people you consider socialists. For our Country... for our economy …. Please desist...
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@BillJones said:
Some collectors are not. I constantly end up bidding against people who pay little attention to the buyers’ fee, and who >ignore all previous auction results and catalog guidelines.
If bidders are ignoring all previous auction results and catalog guidelines, have you considered the possibility that the previous auction results and catalog guidelines were not truly indicative of the market at the time the auction was held?
The easiest way to find that out is to try to sell something for a profit that you "paid up" for and you'll find the number of takers is mighty slim. They all want it for 20% back of price guide.
For the collector, it’s different. They usually have a much narrower want list. When the right item comes along, that they have been seeking for a long time, the buyers’ fee is less important. Some of them bid as if there is no buyers’ fee. I know. I’ve been up against those people.
I don’t understand what impact the buyer’s premium has here.
Either a collector bids with a limit or not. If he does, he can back out the buyer’s premium, when calculating his maximum bid. If he doesn’t set a bid and stick to it, it wont really matter if there’s a buyer’s premium (or the amount of one, if applicable).
If there is a buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, the vast majority of whom lower their hammer bid limits. And if there is no buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, who will be bidding higher than they would if there were no buyer’s premium.
That’s because you assume that bidders are logical. Most Dealers are logical. Some collectors are not. I constantly end up bidding against people who pay little attention to the buyers’ fee, and who ignore all previous auction results and catalog guidelines.
If they are ignoring all previous auction results, including the buyers' fee, perhaps the buyers' fee isn't the issue, but that the buyer just wants the coin, regardless of cost?
Worst thing about auctions is that there's always smoeone with more money than you have to spend.
For the collector, it’s different. They usually have a much narrower want list. When the right item comes along, that they have been seeking for a long time, the buyers’ fee is less important. Some of them bid as if there is no buyers’ fee. I know. I’ve been up against those people.
I don’t understand what impact the buyer’s premium has here.
Either a collector bids with a limit or not. If he does, he can back out the buyer’s premium, when calculating his maximum bid. If he doesn’t set a bid and stick to it, it wont really matter if there’s a buyer’s premium (or the amount of one, if applicable).
If there is a buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, the vast majority of whom lower their hammer bid limits. And if there is no buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, who will be bidding higher than they would if there were no buyer’s premium.
That’s because you assume that bidders are logical. Most Dealers are logical. Some collectors are not. I constantly end up bidding against people who pay little attention to the buyers’ fee, and who ignore all previous auction results and catalog guidelines.
If they are ignoring all previous auction results, including the buyers' fee, perhaps the buyers' fee isn't the issue, but that the buyer just wants the coin, regardless of cost?
Worst thing about auctions is that there's always smoeone with more money than you have to spend.
The best thing about auctions is that there is someone in spitting distance of the final price.
With fixed price sales it’s really easy to be buried. I’ve seen many sellers take auction wins and mark them up by 50-100%. It’s super important to do your research with all items but fixed price even more.
@topstuf said:
From real estate to almost everything else, a ...seller... knows and expects a cost of selling.
A buyer, whether he considers the price to include some cost to him seems, to me, to be less inclined to buy if, in addition to the price, someone is charging him to buy.
Motivation is different for buyers or sellers. Buyers are less likely to "need" to buy. Also, the seller stands to possibly profit after time. A seller selling for need has less choice.
So...would making all costs go on the seller attract more buyers?
???
No. Who doesn't factor in the Buyer's Premium when bidding on the coin? It won't make one bit of difference to anyone who isn't mathematically challenged.
I think we are overcomplicating the question. It does not matter what the coin sells for or who buys it. IN EVERY CASE, if there was no extra fee added to the price of a coin in an auction, the coin would be cheaper. All by itself that should rejuvenate something by making auction coins less expensive. Would that affect the entire coin market? I'm not qualified to answer that.
@BAJJERFAN said:
The easiest way to find that out is to try to sell something for a profit that you "paid up" for and you'll find the number of takers is mighty slim. They all want it for 20% back of price guide.
Not a reasonable comparison, IMO. The people who offer 20% back of price guide are not the same people you had to outbid when paying up at auction.
edited to add... I would expect the number of people willing to pay you a profit for a coin you just outbid everybody else on would be low. No surprise there.
@Insider2 said:
IN EVERY CASE, if there was no extra fee added to the price of a coin in an auction, the coin would be cheaper.
I think that's unlikely. Buyers who are willing to pay $1,000 for a coin will bid up to $1,000 if they don't have to account for a 20% buyer's fee and stop at $833.
@Insider2 said:
I think we are overcomplicating the question. It does not matter what the coin sells for or who buys it. IN EVERY CASE, if there was no extra fee added to the price of a coin in an auction, the coin would be cheaper. All by itself that should rejuvenate something by making auction coins less expensive. Would that affect the entire coin market? I'm not qualified to answer that.
Shall we comment on the gradations between trivial and irrelevant in this comment itself? You are absolutely correct in that you are not qualified to answer that. You are qualified to look at coins. You do not participate in auctions. Now shut up
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@Insider2 said:
I think we are overcomplicating the question. It does not matter what the coin sells for or who buys it. IN EVERY CASE, if there was no extra fee added to the price of a coin in an auction, the coin would be cheaper. All by itself that should rejuvenate something by making auction coins less expensive. Would that affect the entire coin market? I'm not qualified to answer that.
I think that in the vast majority of cases, prices would not be “cheaper”/lower. Without extra fees, most bidders would simply bid higher hammer prices than they would if there were fees.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have stopped buying entirely from places like Heritage with their crazy buyers premiums and mediocre customer service. I don't understand how it takes 3+ weeks to ship me my auction wins in this day and age, especially given what they charge for shipping. It is inexcusable. The only auctions I use now are eBay and GreatCollections.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@Insider2 said:
I think we are overcomplicating the question. It does not matter what the coin sells for or who buys it. IN EVERY CASE, if there was no extra fee added to the price of a coin in an auction, the coin would be cheaper. All by itself that should rejuvenate something by making auction coins less expensive. Would that affect the entire coin market? I'm not qualified to answer that.
Shall we comment on the gradations between trivial and irrelevant in this comment itself? You are absolutely correct in that you are not qualified to answer that. You are qualified to look at coins. You do not participate in auctions. Now shut up
While I'm not qualified to comment on the costs of running a major auction anymore (I once knew the costs associated with ancient coin auctions in the 1980's), I believe anyone can comment on the extra money generated by raising the buyers' fees over the years that increase the end cost of the coin.
Nevertheless, I will do as you say and just read the comments.
For the collector, it’s different. They usually have a much narrower want list. When the right item comes along, that they have been seeking for a long time, the buyers’ fee is less important. Some of them bid as if there is no buyers’ fee. I know. I’ve been up against those people.
I don’t understand what impact the buyer’s premium has here.
Either a collector bids with a limit or not. If he does, he can back out the buyer’s premium, when calculating his maximum bid. If he doesn’t set a bid and stick to it, it wont really matter if there’s a buyer’s premium (or the amount of one, if applicable).
If there is a buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, the vast majority of whom lower their hammer bid limits. And if there is no buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, who will be bidding higher than they would if there were no buyer’s premium.
That’s because you assume that bidders are logical. Most Dealers are logical. Some collectors are not. I constantly end up bidding against people who pay little attention to the buyers’ fee, and who ignore all previous auction results and catalog guidelines.
If they are ignoring all previous auction results, including the buyers' fee, perhaps the buyers' fee isn't the issue, but that the buyer just wants the coin, regardless of cost?
Worst thing about auctions is that there's always smoeone with more money than you have to spend.
The best thing about auctions is that there is someone in spitting distance of the final price.
With fixed price sales it’s really easy to be buried. I’ve seen many sellers take auction wins and mark them up by 50-100%. It’s super important to do your research with all items but fixed price even more.
It's easy to get buried either way if you're not careful. I had one person buy a coin from me and lose his shirt on eBay and buy another coin and make a decent profit on eBay.
Buyers fees turned me away from Heritage. Aside from the fact that they wont accept my Pay Pal account their fees are just too high. Look, handling coins for auction does require labor in imaging and other technical procedures but look at the stark difference in fees compared to Great Collections. Their sellers fees are zero on coins above 1000.00 and still only 12.5 percent on buyers end. Additionally now we see more high end coins sold their. Go figure on that !
@BAJJERFAN said:
The easiest way to find that out is to try to sell something for a profit that you "paid up" for and you'll find the number of takers is mighty slim. They all want it for 20% back of price guide.
Not a reasonable comparison, IMO. The people who offer 20% back of price guide are not the same people you had to outbid when paying up at auction.
edited to add... I would expect the number of people willing to pay you a profit for a coin you just outbid everybody else on would be low. No surprise there.
I'm talking about selling the same coin a couple years later. It takes me a long time to sell nice stuff I paid up for. People are interested, but not at my price. Eventually someone comes through.
@Insider2 said:
I think we are overcomplicating the question. It does not matter what the coin sells for or who buys it. IN EVERY CASE, if there was no extra fee added to the price of a coin in an auction, the coin would be cheaper. All by itself that should rejuvenate something by making auction coins less expensive. Would that affect the entire coin market? I'm not qualified to answer that.
I think that in the vast majority of cases, prices would not be “cheaper”/lower. Without extra fees, most bidders would simply bid higher hammer prices than they would if there were fees.
True. IMO the bid increments are a bigger turnoff than the juice is.
@Insider2 said:
I think we are overcomplicating the question. It does not matter what the coin sells for or who buys it. IN EVERY CASE, if there was no extra fee added to the price of a coin in an auction, the coin would be cheaper. All by itself that should rejuvenate something by making auction coins less expensive. Would that affect the entire coin market? I'm not qualified to answer that.
I think that in the vast majority of cases, prices would not be “cheaper”/lower. Without extra fees, most bidders would simply bid higher hammer prices than they would if there were fees.
Whatever. They would still not be charged anything additional. This is 2+2 = 4 stuff! The final price does not matter. Auctions existed way before someone got the great $$ idea to charge the buyer in addition to the seller to help pay for the auction. Look at the beautiful color catalogs we have as one result.
Oops, I broke my promise to the Colonel. You can have the last word if you rebut me.
I really doubt it matters. It would be more interesting to know what percentage of collectors even buy from major auctions. My feeling is that its a low number.
WS
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
@Insider2 said:
I think we are overcomplicating the question. It does not matter what the coin sells for or who buys it. IN EVERY CASE, if there was no extra fee added to the price of a coin in an auction, the coin would be cheaper. All by itself that should rejuvenate something by making auction coins less expensive. Would that affect the entire coin market? I'm not qualified to answer that.
Shall we comment on the gradations between trivial and irrelevant in this comment itself? You are absolutely correct in that you are not qualified to answer that. You are qualified to look at coins. You do not participate in auctions. Now shut up
While I'm not qualified to comment on the costs of running a major auction anymore (I once knew the costs associated with ancient coin auctions in the 1980's), I believe anyone can comment on the extra money generated by raising the buyers' fees over the years that increase the end cost of the coin.
Nevertheless, I will do as you say and just read the comments.
So you're saying that everything you've said since then is based on continually eroding knowledge and increasing ignorance? So you're familiar with some of Clarence Thomas' Supreme Court opinions...…..
Some interesting parallels in our careers
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@Insider2 said:
I think we are overcomplicating the question. It does not matter what the coin sells for or who buys it. IN EVERY CASE, if there was no extra fee added to the price of a coin in an auction, the coin would be cheaper. All by itself that should rejuvenate something by making auction coins less expensive. Would that affect the entire coin market? I'm not qualified to answer that.
I think that in the vast majority of cases, prices would not be “cheaper”/lower. Without extra fees, most bidders would simply bid higher hammer prices than they would if there were fees.
Whatever. They would still not be charged anything additional. This is 2+2 = 4 stuff! The final price does not matter. Auctions existed way before someone got the great $$ idea to charge the buyer in addition to the seller to help pay for the auction. Look at the beautiful color catalogs we have as one result.
Oops, I broke my promise to the Colonel. You can have the last word if you rebut me.
I’m glad you’re giving me the last word.😉 Because for buyers, the final price (with all applicable fees, included) DOES matter. In fact, it’s all that matters.
I will, however, give you credit for being right about ”This is 2+2 = 4 stuff”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Insider2 said:
I think we are overcomplicating the question. It does not matter what the coin sells for or who buys it. IN EVERY CASE, if there was no extra fee added to the price of a coin in an auction, the coin would be cheaper. All by itself that should rejuvenate something by making auction coins less expensive. Would that affect the entire coin market? I'm not qualified to answer that.
I think that in the vast majority of cases, prices would not be “cheaper”/lower. Without extra fees, most bidders would simply bid higher hammer prices than they would if there were fees.
I agree Mark, but when $10,000 coins sell in 15 second live segments. The numbers are flying all over the screen with cut bids and whole bids and the added fees.
I have miscalculated the fees and over bid...fortunately not often.
For the collector, it’s different. They usually have a much narrower want list. When the right item comes along, that they have been seeking for a long time, the buyers’ fee is less important. Some of them bid as if there is no buyers’ fee. I know. I’ve been up against those people.
I don’t understand what impact the buyer’s premium has here.
Either a collector bids with a limit or not. If he does, he can back out the buyer’s premium, when calculating his maximum bid. If he doesn’t set a bid and stick to it, it wont really matter if there’s a buyer’s premium (or the amount of one, if applicable).
If there is a buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, the vast majority of whom lower their hammer bid limits. And if there is no buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, who will be bidding higher than they would if there were no buyer’s premium.
That’s because you assume that bidders are logical. Most Dealers are logical. Some collectors are not. I constantly end up bidding against people who pay little attention to the buyers’ fee, and who ignore all previous auction results and catalog guidelines.
If they are ignoring all previous auction results, including the buyers' fee, perhaps the buyers' fee isn't the issue, but that the buyer just wants the coin, regardless of cost?
Worst thing about auctions is that there's always smoeone with more money than you have to spend.
The best thing about auctions is that there is someone in spitting distance of the final price.
With fixed price sales it’s really easy to be buried. I’ve seen many sellers take auction wins and mark them up by 50-100%. It’s super important to do your research with all items but fixed price even more.
It's easy to get buried either way if you're not careful. I had one person buy a coin from me and lose his shirt on eBay and buy another coin and make a decent profit on eBay.
You can get buried either way and you should be careful both ways, but in general, I think an auction is safer because there is some price support from another buyer (aside from moon money bids). For fixed price sales, there may not be another buyer to support the price. Coins that sit a long time should be examined more.
@Insider2 said:
I think we are overcomplicating the question. It does not matter what the coin sells for or who buys it. IN EVERY CASE, if there was no extra fee added to the price of a coin in an auction, the coin would be cheaper. All by itself that should rejuvenate something by making auction coins less expensive. Would that affect the entire coin market? I'm not qualified to answer that.
Shall we comment on the gradations between trivial and irrelevant in this comment itself? You are absolutely correct in that you are not qualified to answer that. You are qualified to look at coins. You do not participate in auctions. Now shut up
While I'm not qualified to comment on the costs of running a major auction anymore (I once knew the costs associated with ancient coin auctions in the 1980's), I believe anyone can comment on the extra money generated by raising the buyers' fees over the years that increase the end cost of the coin.
Nevertheless, I will do as you say and just read the comments.
So you're saying that everything you've said since then is based on continually eroding knowledge and increasing ignorance? So you're familiar with some of Clarence Thomas' Supreme Court opinions...…..
Some interesting parallels in our careers
What I'm saying is this is the first and only time to my knowledge that I have ever commented on buyers fees in print. I know exactly how much several ancient coin auctions in the past cost. It was the only time I got to stay at the Plaza Hotel in NY.
Here is a funny story from one of them. The auctioneer got a $X,XXX monthly bill from American Express. Soon after, he received a panicked phone call from that company about the bill. Apparently at the time, when his charges of over $100,000 for the month were dropped off the bill by a computer glitch at American Express, he was only billed the overage until it was discovered.
@Insider2 said:
I think we are overcomplicating the question. It does not matter what the coin sells for or who buys it. IN EVERY CASE, if there was no extra fee added to the price of a coin in an auction, the coin would be cheaper. All by itself that should rejuvenate something by making auction coins less expensive. Would that affect the entire coin market? I'm not qualified to answer that.
I think that in the vast majority of cases, prices would not be “cheaper”/lower. Without extra fees, most bidders would simply bid higher hammer prices than they would if there were fees.
I agree Mark, but when $10,000 coins sell in 15 second live segments. The numbers are flying all over the screen with cut bids and whole bids and the added fees.
I have miscalculated the fees and over bid...fortunately not often.
I actually never calculate the BP before bidding. When pre-bidding, I bid and then see "oh, that's my total bid." I don't usually stretch on pre-bids because there may be several items of interest that I'm following. Given the pace of live bidding, I just bid with the knowledge that my budget can absorb the extra 20%, even if I have to stretch.
So I'm in the category that doesn't figure in the 20%, and I'm okay with that. It's just 20%, or 25% on my latest Heritage win. This tends to work okay with the rare or unique items, but less so for more common items.
I do think there could be more bidders if there was no BP. It took me along while before I started bidding on Heritage and Stacks because I wasn’t sure how the bidding process worked.
For the collector, it’s different. They usually have a much narrower want list. When the right item comes along, that they have been seeking for a long time, the buyers’ fee is less important. Some of them bid as if there is no buyers’ fee. I know. I’ve been up against those people.
I don’t understand what impact the buyer’s premium has here.
Either a collector bids with a limit or not. If he does, he can back out the buyer’s premium, when calculating his maximum bid. If he doesn’t set a bid and stick to it, it wont really matter if there’s a buyer’s premium (or the amount of one, if applicable).
If there is a buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, the vast majority of whom lower their hammer bid limits. And if there is no buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, who will be bidding higher than they would if there were no buyer’s premium.
That’s because you assume that bidders are logical. Most Dealers are logical. Some collectors are not. I constantly end up bidding against people who pay little attention to the buyers’ fee, and who ignore all previous auction results and catalog guidelines.
If they are ignoring all previous auction results, including the buyers' fee, perhaps the buyers' fee isn't the issue, but that the buyer just wants the coin, regardless of cost?
Worst thing about auctions is that there's always smoeone with more money than you have to spend.
The best thing about auctions is that there is someone in spitting distance of the final price.
With fixed price sales it’s really easy to be buried. I’ve seen many sellers take auction wins and mark them up by 50-100%. It’s super important to do your research with all items but fixed price even more.
It's easy to get buried either way if you're not careful. I had one person buy a coin from me and lose his shirt on eBay and buy another coin and make a decent profit on eBay.
You can get buried either way and you should be careful both ways, but in general, I think an auction is safer because there is some price support from another buyer (aside from moon money bids). For fixed price sales, there may not be another buyer to support the price. Coins that sit a long time should be examined more.
Except access to the second highest bidding "sucker" is usually near impossible. I owned them for a few years before I decided to sell. I wasn't an aggressive seller either. If someone wanted it at my price fine; if not that was fine too.
For the collector, it’s different. They usually have a much narrower want list. When the right item comes along, that they have been seeking for a long time, the buyers’ fee is less important. Some of them bid as if there is no buyers’ fee. I know. I’ve been up against those people.
I don’t understand what impact the buyer’s premium has here.
Either a collector bids with a limit or not. If he does, he can back out the buyer’s premium, when calculating his maximum bid. If he doesn’t set a bid and stick to it, it wont really matter if there’s a buyer’s premium (or the amount of one, if applicable).
If there is a buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, the vast majority of whom lower their hammer bid limits. And if there is no buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, who will be bidding higher than they would if there were no buyer’s premium.
That’s because you assume that bidders are logical. Most Dealers are logical. Some collectors are not. I constantly end up bidding against people who pay little attention to the buyers’ fee, and who ignore all previous auction results and catalog guidelines.
If they are ignoring all previous auction results, including the buyers' fee, perhaps the buyers' fee isn't the issue, but that the buyer just wants the coin, regardless of cost?
Worst thing about auctions is that there's always smoeone with more money than you have to spend.
The best thing about auctions is that there is someone in spitting distance of the final price.
With fixed price sales it’s really easy to be buried. I’ve seen many sellers take auction wins and mark them up by 50-100%. It’s super important to do your research with all items but fixed price even more.
It's easy to get buried either way if you're not careful. I had one person buy a coin from me and lose his shirt on eBay and buy another coin and make a decent profit on eBay.
You can get buried either way and you should be careful both ways, but in general, I think an auction is safer because there is some price support from another buyer (aside from moon money bids). For fixed price sales, there may not be another buyer to support the price. Coins that sit a long time should be examined more.
Except access to the second highest bidding "sucker" is usually near impossible. I owned them for a few years before I decided to sell. I wasn't an aggressive seller either. If someone wanted it at my price fine; if not that was fine too.
I thought the second highest bidder is often the real "winner"
It sounds like you sold at a fixed price. What venue did you sell at and did you (or the seller) have a following?
However, if you think buying from an auction is bad, think about buying at a fixed price which is 50% to 100% above the auction price it was sourced from. I was just considering a Draped Bust dollar that is being offered at a fixed price 46% higher than what it sold for at auction. Here, the known buyers are at a price point much lower than the offered price.
Now, that's not to say I don't pay up when I want something. I've even paid up to 200% more / 3x auction price for fixed price listing from dealers. I pay for the convenience of buying at any time rather than the specific auction time which I have often missed in those scenarios. The high fixed price allows me more time to find and budget for the piece. This is typically for items where another chance may not come around for a decade or ever.
For the collector, it’s different. They usually have a much narrower want list. When the right item comes along, that they have been seeking for a long time, the buyers’ fee is less important. Some of them bid as if there is no buyers’ fee. I know. I’ve been up against those people.
I don’t understand what impact the buyer’s premium has here.
Either a collector bids with a limit or not. If he does, he can back out the buyer’s premium, when calculating his maximum bid. If he doesn’t set a bid and stick to it, it wont really matter if there’s a buyer’s premium (or the amount of one, if applicable).
If there is a buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, the vast majority of whom lower their hammer bid limits. And if there is no buyer’s premium, he will be bidding against other bidders, who will be bidding higher than they would if there were no buyer’s premium.
That’s because you assume that bidders are logical. Most Dealers are logical. Some collectors are not. I constantly end up bidding against people who pay little attention to the buyers’ fee, and who ignore all previous auction results and catalog guidelines.
If they are ignoring all previous auction results, including the buyers' fee, perhaps the buyers' fee isn't the issue, but that the buyer just wants the coin, regardless of cost?
Worst thing about auctions is that there's always smoeone with more money than you have to spend.
The best thing about auctions is that there is someone in spitting distance of the final price.
With fixed price sales it’s really easy to be buried. I’ve seen many sellers take auction wins and mark them up by 50-100%. It’s super important to do your research with all items but fixed price even more.
It's easy to get buried either way if you're not careful. I had one person buy a coin from me and lose his shirt on eBay and buy another coin and make a decent profit on eBay.
You can get buried either way and you should be careful both ways, but in general, I think an auction is safer because there is some price support from another buyer (aside from moon money bids). For fixed price sales, there may not be another buyer to support the price. Coins that sit a long time should be examined more.
Except access to the second highest bidding "sucker" is usually near impossible. I owned them for a few years before I decided to sell. I wasn't an aggressive seller either. If someone wanted it at my price fine; if not that was fine too.
I thought the second highest bidder is often the real "winner"
It sounds like you sold at a fixed price. What venue did you sell at and did you (or the seller) have a following?
However, if you think buying from an auction is bad, think about buying at a fixed price which is 50% to 100% above the auction price it was sourced from. I was just considering a Draped Bust dollar that is being offered at a fixed price 46% higher than what it sold for at auction. Here, the known buyers are at a price point much lower than the offered price.
Now, that's not to say I don't pay up when I want something. I've even paid up to 200% more / 3x auction price for fixed price listing from dealers. I pay for the convenience of buying at any time rather than the specific auction time which I have often missed in those scenarios. The high fixed price allows me more time to find and budget for the piece. This is typically for items where another chance may not come around for a decade or ever.
The comment about the second highest bidder may or may not be true depending upon the coin. IIRC I listed it here and it was posted in the collective coin link in my sigline. I refused to even consider ANY auction venue since I didn't have to sell and was interested in a loss. It was/still is a really nice circ 16-S Walker as the buyer who posted it here attested to. Funny thing is that a local club member who needs it wasn't interested in it at my price. Now he finds out how hard they are to come by and asks me to keep an eye out for one. Go figger.
Your comment about selling at 50+% over auction price reminds me why I still sometimes care what someone else paid for what they are selling, esp. if I know what they paid.
@BillJones said:
It happens to me constantly. Do you guys ever find a fair value at auction? I almost never do. The buyers’ fee just rubs it in. I am consistently the high bid buyer for many results posted on “Coin Facts.”
Every time this happens, I need to post the results here, and you analyze the results.
Bill, for better or worse, it seems like lots of people pay way more than a coin is "worth."
@topstuf said:
Can we get MMPTY (Most Misunderstood Poll This Year) for this thread?
ENTIRE ????? - misunderstood by whom, Mr. Gallup?
Welll.....kaff kaff... NOT ......this forum.
I successfully directed a possiblity that would apply mostly to those NOT here.
I know one thing that doesn't need a survey.
Picture if eBay charged BUYERS a fee to get stuff.
THEN pose the question if dropping idiocy like that would increase their sales.
THIS is the absolute wrongest venue I cudda used..
However it was educational to discover how ex-PURT the experts in coins are. I at least precipitated the good advice for collectors to learn math.
And find that most are well aware of demographic trends in the hobby.
@topstuf said:
Can we get MMPTY (Most Misunderstood Poll This Year) for this thread?
ENTIRE ????? - misunderstood by whom, Mr. Gallup?
Welll.....kaff kaff... NOT ......this forum.
I successfully directed a possiblity that would apply mostly to those NOT here.
I know one thing that doesn't need a survey.
Picture if eBay charged BUYERS a fee to get stuff.
THEN pose the question if dropping idiocy like that would increase their sales.
THIS is the absolute wrongest venue I cudda used..
However it was educational to discover how ex-PURT the experts in coins are. I at least precipitated the good advice for collectors to learn math.
And find that most are well aware of demographic trends in the hobby.
I hope that you weren't expecting those not here to come here and opwhine about it.
Comments
I have been saying for 10-15 years that there are too many of three different things: too many dealers, too many shows, too many auctions. all three of those things grew in ranks when prices started escalating with PM's. if there were less dealers there would be less shows and less auctions.
I don't know why more people in the Hobby don't think that's a good thing. less dealers means less competition and less shows, that means more collectors at the individual shows and probably the ability for dealers to sell more at retail. that should translate to less need for an auction.
why wouldn't more people be interested in private sales over a public auction sale??
I love auctions for two reasons: it is generally buyers competing for a true market price and the larger venues produce good historical records. One good thing about Heritage and Stack's is that they have good auction records. You can get eBay auction records from WorthPoint as well. With individual dealers, there's often no record of the transaction, for pedigree tracing and pricing purposes.
That’s because you assume that bidders are logical. Most Dealers are logical. Some collectors are not. I constantly end up bidding against people who pay little attention to the buyers’ fee, and who ignore all previous auction results and catalog guidelines.
If they are ignoring all previous auction results, including the buyers' fee, perhaps the buyers' fee isn't the issue, but that the buyer just wants the coin, regardless of cost?
I don’t assume that all dealer or collector bidders are logical. If the illogical collector bidders in your example are going to ignore the buyer’s premium and bid too much, wouldn’t they also bid too much if there were no buyer’s premium?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That was my point, which you made better than I did.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I quit auctions because of fees. It got out of hand in my opinion. Sure, I could reduce my bids and guess the final price and if taxes will be charged. I'll just buy face to face from a trusted dealer/friend.
I think there are two types of buyers here:
I was always under the impression Bill was talking about the first type of buyer, which I can see on occasion, but if they are bidding well above past auction records, the buyer may be of the second type.
It happens to me constantly. Do you guys ever find a fair value at auction? I almost never do. The buyers’ fee just rubs it in. I am consistently the high bid buyer for many results posted on “Coin Facts.”
Every time this happens, I need to post the results here, and you analyze the results.
If bidders are ignoring all previous auction results and catalog guidelines, have you considered the possibility that the previous auction results and catalog guidelines were not truly indicative of the market at the time the auction was held?
Agreed. The trouble is the quality at the shows has died up.
define fair value.
A properly graded coin that is priced near the PCGS “Coin Facts” which people say here tend to be high.
without needing to know anything about the coins you're bidding on I would only suggest that what you describe is how prices change. if everyone bidding at an auction only bid to a certain level than prices would be stagnant and the key factor would be who could reach the right dollar amount first. I probably bid like you do, I have a certain price I am willing to pay and stop when it gets there. some bidders don't care, though, they just want the coin.
Or they do care, but they just value the coin more than you, maybe?
NO
Sorry, @BillJones, but this is a gross oversimplification.
"Some" buyers and "some" sellers would range how far statistically?
Only the top three potential purchasers have any impact upon each, every and any auction purchase. All other values assigned or assumed are irrelevant in that ineffable instantaneous moment when the hammer falls. There could be no one else within 50% or 100 buyers at 2 ticks less. Each and every one knows exactly, to the penny. what they will pay. Some have infinite budgets, boundless imaginations and exquisite search engines and others here on Earth focus more towards specialized niches, CDN, auction prices and ability to multiply and divide by 1/6th (16.67%), 1/5th (20%) and 1/4th (25%) without a pen and paper.
Whatever reductio ab adsurdum scenario one might concoct, it's already happened. The "market" has seen it, and various participants have missed it, We will suffer and benefit from the aggregate of these moments. How deep and poetic. Here's the story... I pity the fool who expects to buy much other than "stuff" at auction nowadays without "paying up", "Usually" and "mostly"
BUT
if you don't know to the penny how much your purchases cost because you failed to factor in your savings on gas or postage if you use eCheck you can still have a fighting chance without over-thinking.
in a tried and true practical online arena, you overpay 6% from the next two highest bidders and you're often a buyer. Three stupid crazy illogical assholes with weird theories about rarity and quality and more cents than sense and you can spend almost half a decade chasing 1877 20c's at 20% over what you know is stupid reasonable for the issue.
You and I, @Bill, are not the norm. We're not close to typical. Either of us, old, tired and jaded, has the capacity to wire the other $100K the next day on ANYTHING we might whimsically purchase with an expectation of making 12% in 3 months. Or holding until we die.
Exclusive of what we might collect.
Any such decision would be based on a bottom line. Definable. Calculable. Risk-adjusted. Et cetera
There is always such a number. Everyone who finds the fourth-grade arithmetic adjustment too cumbersome is just totally screwed.
But they are a truly insignificant market factor. The "buyers fee" is a construct used to manipulate potential consigners.
@BillJones I feel your pain. It is motivating you to continue to repeat essentially meaningless (statistically) but confusing drivel.
I have a moral obligation to take advantage of the ignorance and foolishness you spread. My heirs will donate to people you consider socialists. For our Country... for our economy …. Please desist...
The easiest way to find that out is to try to sell something for a profit that you "paid up" for and you'll find the number of takers is mighty slim. They all want it for 20% back of price guide.
Worst thing about auctions is that there's always smoeone with more money than you have to spend.
Yes, it's obviously just a money grab. How much effect is to be determined.
Has anyone calculated the difference between 12% in a year and holding til death?
Sorry... inattentive.... it was 48% per annum.
The best thing about auctions is that there is someone in spitting distance of the final price.
With fixed price sales it’s really easy to be buried. I’ve seen many sellers take auction wins and mark them up by 50-100%. It’s super important to do your research with all items but fixed price even more.
No. Who doesn't factor in the Buyer's Premium when bidding on the coin? It won't make one bit of difference to anyone who isn't mathematically challenged.
I think we are overcomplicating the question. It does not matter what the coin sells for or who buys it. IN EVERY CASE, if there was no extra fee added to the price of a coin in an auction, the coin would be cheaper. All by itself that should rejuvenate something by making auction coins less expensive. Would that affect the entire coin market? I'm not qualified to answer that.
Not a reasonable comparison, IMO. The people who offer 20% back of price guide are not the same people you had to outbid when paying up at auction.
edited to add... I would expect the number of people willing to pay you a profit for a coin you just outbid everybody else on would be low. No surprise there.
I think that's unlikely. Buyers who are willing to pay $1,000 for a coin will bid up to $1,000 if they don't have to account for a 20% buyer's fee and stop at $833.
Shall we comment on the gradations between trivial and irrelevant in this comment itself? You are absolutely correct in that you are not qualified to answer that. You are qualified to look at coins. You do not participate in auctions. Now shut up
Can we get MMPTY (Most Misunderstood Poll This Year) for this thread?
I think that in the vast majority of cases, prices would not be “cheaper”/lower. Without extra fees, most bidders would simply bid higher hammer prices than they would if there were fees.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
ENTIRE ????? - misunderstood by whom, Mr. Gallup?
I have stopped buying entirely from places like Heritage with their crazy buyers premiums and mediocre customer service. I don't understand how it takes 3+ weeks to ship me my auction wins in this day and age, especially given what they charge for shipping. It is inexcusable. The only auctions I use now are eBay and GreatCollections.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
While I'm not qualified to comment on the costs of running a major auction anymore (I once knew the costs associated with ancient coin auctions in the 1980's), I believe anyone can comment on the extra money generated by raising the buyers' fees over the years that increase the end cost of the coin.
Nevertheless, I will do as you say and just read the comments.
It's easy to get buried either way if you're not careful. I had one person buy a coin from me and lose his shirt on eBay and buy another coin and make a decent profit on eBay.
Buyers fees turned me away from Heritage. Aside from the fact that they wont accept my Pay Pal account their fees are just too high. Look, handling coins for auction does require labor in imaging and other technical procedures but look at the stark difference in fees compared to Great Collections. Their sellers fees are zero on coins above 1000.00 and still only 12.5 percent on buyers end. Additionally now we see more high end coins sold their. Go figure on that !
I'm talking about selling the same coin a couple years later. It takes me a long time to sell nice stuff I paid up for. People are interested, but not at my price. Eventually someone comes through.
True. IMO the bid increments are a bigger turnoff than the juice is.
Whatever. They would still not be charged anything additional. This is 2+2 = 4 stuff! The final price does not matter. Auctions existed way before someone got the great $$ idea to charge the buyer in addition to the seller to help pay for the auction. Look at the beautiful color catalogs we have as one result.
Oops, I broke my promise to the Colonel. You can have the last word if you rebut me.
I really doubt it matters. It would be more interesting to know what percentage of collectors even buy from major auctions. My feeling is that its a low number.
WS
So you're saying that everything you've said since then is based on continually eroding knowledge and increasing ignorance?
So you're familiar with some of Clarence Thomas' Supreme Court opinions...…..
Some interesting parallels in our careers
I’m glad you’re giving me the last word.😉 Because for buyers, the final price (with all applicable fees, included) DOES matter. In fact, it’s all that matters.
I will, however, give you credit for being right about ”This is 2+2 = 4 stuff”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree Mark, but when $10,000 coins sell in 15 second live segments. The numbers are flying all over the screen with cut bids and whole bids and the added fees.
I have miscalculated the fees and over bid...fortunately not often.
You can get buried either way and you should be careful both ways, but in general, I think an auction is safer because there is some price support from another buyer (aside from moon money bids). For fixed price sales, there may not be another buyer to support the price. Coins that sit a long time should be examined more.
What I'm saying is this is the first and only time to my knowledge that I have ever commented on buyers fees in print. I know exactly how much several ancient coin auctions in the past cost. It was the only time I got to stay at the Plaza Hotel in NY.
Here is a funny story from one of them. The auctioneer got a $X,XXX monthly bill from American Express. Soon after, he received a panicked phone call from that company about the bill. Apparently at the time, when his charges of over $100,000 for the month were dropped off the bill by a computer glitch at American Express, he was only billed the overage until it was discovered.
.
I actually never calculate the BP before bidding. When pre-bidding, I bid and then see "oh, that's my total bid." I don't usually stretch on pre-bids because there may be several items of interest that I'm following. Given the pace of live bidding, I just bid with the knowledge that my budget can absorb the extra 20%, even if I have to stretch.
So I'm in the category that doesn't figure in the 20%, and I'm okay with that. It's just 20%, or 25% on my latest Heritage win. This tends to work okay with the rare or unique items, but less so for more common items.
I do think there could be more bidders if there was no BP. It took me along while before I started bidding on Heritage and Stacks because I wasn’t sure how the bidding process worked.
Except access to the second highest bidding "sucker" is usually near impossible. I owned them for a few years before I decided to sell. I wasn't an aggressive seller either. If someone wanted it at my price fine; if not that was fine too.
I thought the second highest bidder is often the real "winner"
It sounds like you sold at a fixed price. What venue did you sell at and did you (or the seller) have a following?
However, if you think buying from an auction is bad, think about buying at a fixed price which is 50% to 100% above the auction price it was sourced from. I was just considering a Draped Bust dollar that is being offered at a fixed price 46% higher than what it sold for at auction. Here, the known buyers are at a price point much lower than the offered price.
Now, that's not to say I don't pay up when I want something. I've even paid up to 200% more / 3x auction price for fixed price listing from dealers. I pay for the convenience of buying at any time rather than the specific auction time which I have often missed in those scenarios. The high fixed price allows me more time to find and budget for the piece. This is typically for items where another chance may not come around for a decade or ever.
The comment about the second highest bidder may or may not be true depending upon the coin. IIRC I listed it here and it was posted in the collective coin link in my sigline. I refused to even consider ANY auction venue since I didn't have to sell and was interested in a loss. It was/still is a really nice circ 16-S Walker as the buyer who posted it here attested to. Funny thing is that a local club member who needs it wasn't interested in it at my price. Now he finds out how hard they are to come by and asks me to keep an eye out for one. Go figger.
Your comment about selling at 50+% over auction price reminds me why I still sometimes care what someone else paid for what they are selling, esp. if I know what they paid.
Bill, for better or worse, it seems like lots of people pay way more than a coin is "worth."
Check out these threads:
Also, doesn't CoinFacts only list high bidders? So if you are there, you are a high bidder, otherwise, you aren't listed?
Welll.....kaff kaff... NOT ......this forum.
I successfully directed a possiblity that would apply mostly to those NOT here.
I know one thing that doesn't need a survey.
Picture if eBay charged BUYERS a fee to get stuff.
THEN pose the question if dropping idiocy like that would increase their sales.
THIS is the absolute wrongest venue I cudda used..
However it was educational to discover how ex-PURT the experts in coins are. I at least precipitated the good advice for collectors to learn math.
And find that most are well aware of demographic trends in the hobby.
I hope that you weren't expecting those not here to come here and opwhine about it.