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So you think you can grade? Try this lead medal

jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭✭✭

I'm not posting this as a "guess the grade", since the piece is raw. More like "can you explain HOW to grade it", I think.

This a 19th century agricultural meal for The Shepherds Fair in Springfield, state unknown. It's apparently quite rare -- there's only a single mention of this piece on the NNP. It's also quite small -- 27.9 mm diameter, 2.9 mm thick -- which is very unusual for agricultural medals in this period.

As you can see, it's in pretty lousy condition... unless it isn't. There's a lot of what looks to me like original luster around the edges and in the devices.

Based on the (lack of) details, I'd think about this as like a VF piece. Based on the luster, I suppose it has to be considered AU? I think what happened is that the lead is so soft that it lost the details in a blink of an eye, without getting much actual wear. Whether or not that's true, it doesn't have strong details, and it does have luster.

How does this get graded?


Comments

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2019 8:49PM

    It has some luster so many will call it XF.

    I grade it VF 35 based on the intricate detail remaining in the areas that are not flat at the center.

  • ARCOARCO Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well, since medals don't tend to circulate and lead is soft, this may just be the combination of a poor strike and / or wear from handling. VF seems fair.

  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭

    xf

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Appears it was in some type of “mount” (bezel) to protect the outer perimeter while the center areas are worn.

    ——————-

    To answer the question, “How does this get graded?”

    “PCGS Tokens and Medals
    Tokens and Medals should be submitted under Special Issues or Economy Special Issues service based on their declared values (not available for on-site grading). Certain tokens and medals may require additional research, and turnaround times can fluctuate based on the amount of research required. Before submitting tokens or medals to PCGS, please verify that each of the tokens or medals are listed below. We continually update this list, so please check back for frequent updates. For additional inquiries, please contact PCGS Customer Service at 800-447-8848 or email info@PCGS.com.”

    https://www.pcgs.com/tokensandmedals/

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I grade it BAH.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The wear has taken it beyond the stage of desirability... the high points have protected some of the original luster. Looks as if it was in a small box with a lot of other coins/medals/tokens that was frequently moved, shuffled, sorted through. Cheers, RickO

  • NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 10,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Since there's luster and like you said lead is soft. I would say XF

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Light wear, some remaining luster, poor strike---XF40

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,921 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019 7:09AM

    I’m completely unfamiliar with such pieces, so don’t have an all-important perspective, to know what they can look like. That said, my guess would be AU (and XF at a minimum).

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pb

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019 8:03AM

    I’m completely unfamiliar with such pieces, so don’t have an all-important perspective, to know what they can look like. That said, my guess would be AU (and XF at a minimum).

    I am at a loss since someone has finally agreed with a position I have held for quite some time, even to the point of asking the forum membership what they thought. to wit: how do the TPG's grade a medal that they may never have seen before and have no reference to conclude what a full strike might be or look like??? the prevailing answer was "They grade them just like coins" which is wholly unsatisfactory to me.

    there is precedence for making exceptions to that with mid-20's branch Mint Buffalo Nickels and with many, many coins struck from abraded dies, so why not look objectively at medals???

    there is every indication that this should be graded as the OP suggests, perhaps AU. I consider the rim and the softness of lead. how did central devices wear without the rim wearing?? all I see on the rim are either insignificant contact marks or unstruck planchet flaws. all I see on the design based on the fact that there is nothing to assess a full strike is a medal with weak detail. remember, lead is so soft that any of those rim marks could have been made from a fingernail.

    I would ask Jonathan a simple question --- Is it bent?? here's what I see: no central contact marks on a very soft alloy, abundant luster considering the age and oxidation, clean and full rims that don't appear worn. absent any other medal to show a full strike I would call it AU/MS and err towards AU53.

    BTW, has anyone ever wondered why Lead issues aren't usually referred to as having been struck, rather, they are impressed? that's how I have always heard it. a strike on a regular press with anything near coining pressure would be ridiculous.

  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 7,250 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd guess Pb-45

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson

    My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jonathanb said:
    How does this get graded?

    What do you mean by "graded"? Are you attempting to describe the amount of actual wear with no regard to the strength of the original strike? The amount of wear needed to get to its current state based on a fully struck example? Something else?

  • TradesWithChopsTradesWithChops Posts: 640 ✭✭✭✭

    this coin looks spectacular. my guess is an interval- au58-ms61.

    I dont see anything on it that indicates circulation. circulated lead coins look really bad, as the slightest bump is maintained in the coin. this coin looks like its been handled with care.

    Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
    More Than It's Chopped Up To Be

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019 10:18AM

    One thing in defense of high VF...

    In the "old days" (look at the Sheldon Scale description in Penny Whimsey) a VF coin had lots of Mint luster. As grading evolved over 4-5 decades - now, anything with ANY original luster is often considered to be XF. As I said, many will grade this medal XF. I probably should have known that Most younger folks would.

    One other thing. IMHO, an experienced grader can grade virtually any coin/token/ medal w/o having seen a similar piece in MS. So, I'll agree with the VF-35 (me) or XF-40 posters. FACT: An AU opinion is TOTALLY uninformed :p

  • jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG I guess I'm asking about the thought process. I'm not planning on getting this slabbed, but if I did send it in, it would come back in plastic with a number on top. How would a grader come up with that number, in a case like this where the details, the luster, and the composition are all playing against each other?

    @ricko Desirability is in the eye of the beholder. I stopped collecting federal coinage years ago because I didn't want to play the registry game. I like the history better. The only listing for this piece in the NNP is from the 1884 sale of the Woodward collection, where it was described -- even then -- as the only one he has seen. It isn't listed in Andrew Harkness's recent-ish book on agricultural medals. Even assuming this isn't literally unique, it's rare enough that I'm happy to take it in this condition. FWIW, I'm not saying this is valuable. I'm saying it's interesting. There's a difference!

    @keets this is definitely not bent. It's small enough and thick enough that you couldn't bend it just by holding it (I have a couple of larger lead medals that I'm pretty sure I could bend with one hand). You make a good point about looking at the rims; I hadn't thought about that. FWIW, I don't have a problem calling this a struck piece. "Impressed" isn't a term that's normally used in our hobby. This isn't cast. I've seen plenty of weirder compositions, including gutta percha, that were clearly struck rather than cast...

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,921 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019 10:41AM

    @Insider2 said:
    One thing in defense of high VF...

    In the "old days" (look at the Sheldon Scale description in Penny Whimsey) a VF coin had lots of Mint luster. As grading evolved over 4-5 decades - now, anything with ANY original luster is often considered to be XF. As I said, many will grade this medal XF. I probably should have known that Most younger folks would.

    One other thing. IMHO, an experienced grader can grade virtually any coin/token/ medal w/o having seen a similar piece in MS. So, I'll agree with the VF-35 (me) or XF-40 posters. FACT: An AU opinion is TOTALLY uninformed :p

    What a coincidence! I was thinking the same “TOTALLY uninformed” about your VF35 opinion.😄
    I thought I’d seen you post multiple times something along the lines of people needing not to be stuck in the “old days”.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    In the "old days" (look at the Sheldon Scale description in Penny Whimsey) a VF coin had lots of Mint luster. As grading evolved over 4-5 decades - now, anything with ANY original luster is often considered to be XF.

    In the old days, gas cost a quarter a gallon. If, as you have observed, grading has evolved, what's the benefit of using an older grading system than what people are currently accustomed to?

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,612 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know nothing about grading medals, but VF25 is my gut...

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jonathanb said:
    I guess I'm asking about the thought process.

    Don't know how the grading services do it but if it was me, I'd be trying to figure how much actual wear has occurred in order to assign a grade. My personal preference is not to use "fully struck" as a starting point, as this seems to me to lead to odd results with less than fully struck examples.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:

    @Insider2 said:
    In the "old days" (look at the Sheldon Scale description in Penny Whimsey) a VF coin had lots of Mint luster. As grading evolved over 4-5 decades - now, anything with ANY original luster is often considered to be XF.

    In the old days, gas cost a quarter a gallon. If, as you have observed, grading has evolved, what's the benefit of using an older grading system than what people are currently accustomed to?

    @MFeld said:

    @Insider2 said:
    One thing in defense of high VF...

    In the "old days" (look at the Sheldon Scale description in Penny Whimsey) a VF coin had lots of Mint luster. As grading evolved over 4-5 decades - now, anything with ANY original luster is often considered to be XF. As I said, many will grade this medal XF. I probably should have known that Most younger folks would.

    One other thing. IMHO, an experienced grader can grade virtually any coin/token/ medal w/o having seen a similar piece in MS. So, I'll agree with the VF-35 (me) or XF-40 posters. FACT: An AU opinion is TOTALLY uninformed :p

    What a coincidence! I was thinking the same “TOTALLY uninformed” about your VF35 opinion.😄
    I thought I’d seen you post multiple times something along the lines of people needing not to be stuck in the “old days”.

    CHALLENGE

    OK, in the interests of education...Let's (at least the three of us - but open for all members) give a DETAILED description of our grading thoughts and the reason for our GRADE OPINION. :)

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,921 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019 12:09PM

    @Insider2 said:

    @MasonG said:

    @Insider2 said:
    In the "old days" (look at the Sheldon Scale description in Penny Whimsey) a VF coin had lots of Mint luster. As grading evolved over 4-5 decades - now, anything with ANY original luster is often considered to be XF.

    In the old days, gas cost a quarter a gallon. If, as you have observed, grading has evolved, what's the benefit of using an older grading system than what people are currently accustomed to?

    @MFeld said:

    @Insider2 said:
    One thing in defense of high VF...

    In the "old days" (look at the Sheldon Scale description in Penny Whimsey) a VF coin had lots of Mint luster. As grading evolved over 4-5 decades - now, anything with ANY original luster is often considered to be XF. As I said, many will grade this medal XF. I probably should have known that Most younger folks would.

    One other thing. IMHO, an experienced grader can grade virtually any coin/token/ medal w/o having seen a similar piece in MS. So, I'll agree with the VF-35 (me) or XF-40 posters. FACT: An AU opinion is TOTALLY uninformed :p

    What a coincidence! I was thinking the same “TOTALLY uninformed” about your VF35 opinion.😄
    I thought I’d seen you post multiple times something along the lines of people needing not to be stuck in the “old days”.

    CHALLENGE

    OK, in the interests of education...Let's (at least the three of us - but open for all members) give a DETAILED description of our grading thoughts and the reason for our GRADE OPINION. :)

    As I mentioned in my initial post to this thread “I’m completely unfamiliar with such pieces, so don’t have an all-important perspective, to know what they can look like. That said, my guess would be AU (and XF at a minimum).”

    This was my thought process in arriving at my AU grade guess from above:
    I saw areas of noticeable luster on both sides. Some of the animals on the obverse appeared to display only light wear. And ditto for much of the lettering on each side. Based on that, I surmised that while appearing to be more worn, the other design elements must have actually been lacking their detail due to strike, as opposed to additional wear. At that point, I had to go with either AU or XF and I chose the former.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I accepted and met your phony grading challenge almost 4 hours before you made it. go re-read my post and educate yourself as to what my opinion is because I stand by it. and while we're at it, I will follow the lead by another member about your "informed" status and state clearly that I disagree with any premise that says we can grade virtually any coin/token/ medal w/o having seen a similar piece or understanding what has taken place with the piece being examined.

    along those lines, several years ago MFeld posted a nice three-legged Buffalo for an educational grade exercise, and that's exactly what it turned out to be. most guesses ranged from XF45-AU58 while I think the coin was graded MS62. the lesson was simple --- collectors not familiar with that issue saw what looked like weak detail and interpreted it to be wear.

    JMHO, but what seems to be going on with this medal is that the wear in the center is not consistent with the wear at the rims.

  • TradesWithChopsTradesWithChops Posts: 640 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019 4:48PM

    but youre all forgetting gradeflation - hence MS. for the win!!

    Although I do believe it is actually AU.

    Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
    More Than It's Chopped Up To Be

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    along those lines, several years ago MFeld posted a nice three-legged Buffalo for an educational grade exercise, and that's exactly what it turned out to be. most guesses ranged from XF45-AU58 while I think the coin was graded MS62. the lesson was simple --- collectors not familiar with that issue saw what looked like weak detail and interpreted it to be wear.

    Another lesson is that, on this message board at least, it appears there's value in being recognized for being extra critical when offering an opinion on an online image.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019 5:26PM

    @keets said: "I accepted and met your phony grading challenge [Such animosity, LOL. What is phony about it? I respect folks who state an opinion and can back it up. I'll need to find yours as I may have missed it.] Almost 4 hours before you made it. go re-read my post and educate yourself as to what my opinion is because I stand by it. and while we're at it, I will follow the lead by another member about your "informed" status and state clearly that I disagree with any premise that says we can grade virtually any coin/token/ medal w/o having seen a similar piece or understanding what has taken place with the piece being examined." [Unfortunately, I can tell by your posts in the past that IMHO, you do not have the experience YET to measure up to the folks I'm talking about. Therefore I will agree with your statement that you and MOST others cannot grade anything put in front of you. I know folks who can and quite well.]

    "Along those lines, several years ago MFeld posted a nice three-legged Buffalo for an educational grade exercise, and that's exactly what it turned out to be. most guesses ranged from XF45-AU58 while I think the coin was graded MS62. the lesson was simple --- collectors not familiar with that issue saw what looked like weak detail and interpreted it to be wear." [Thanks for making my point!] "JMHO, but what seems to be going on with this medal is that the wear in the center is not consistent with the wear at the rims. [You may be confusing "wear" with a soft strike and a flattening of the design due to damage.]

    PS Remember this item and the Buffalo are/were graded using only images!

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019 5:48PM

    So...What do you guys think? AU? XF? VF? F? :p

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think that doesn't look like it's struck in lead. Does that matter? What do you think?

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2019 5:59PM

    Lead is softer than gold. Based on the amount of original luster remaining in the protected areas and the amount of detail remaining on the leaves, I'd say the lead item was a very nice looking piece before it became an overall:

    VF

  • jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow, fantastic gold example!

    Is that engraved on the back with anything that gives a better idea for date or location?

    Interesting that this piece is signed. The SC in the exergue is clear on the gold example. With that hint I can kinda-sorta see it on mine. I don't think I know of an SC sculptor, do you ?

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,921 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    Lead is softer than gold. Based on the amount of original luster remaining in the protected areas and the amount of detail remaining on the leaves, I'd say the lead item was a very nice looking piece before it became an overall:

    VF

    Is that your “detailed description” of your thoughts and reason for your VF opinion, as per your challenge?
    And you relied upon the detail remaining on the leaves, but what about the far greater detail on the animals?

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Insider2 said:
    Lead is softer than gold. Based on the amount of original luster remaining in the protected areas and the amount of detail remaining on the leaves, I'd say the lead item was a very nice looking piece before it became an overall:

    VF

    Is that your “detailed description” of your thoughts and reason for your VF opinion, as per your challenge?
    And you relied upon the detail remaining on the leaves, but what about the far greater detail on the animals?

    No, I have not posted my thought process yet. I've printed out your reply and wish to let others take a shot at why they believe either VF, XF or AU. **I posted an image of an MS-60 or 61 (with rub = AU-58) to aid other posters who wish to comment.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Are coining presses set up the same for different metals?

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Meh. VG. How a lead piece would have a weak strike is beyond me. I’m inclined to believe the rims protected the periphery. I’d grade it by the central details

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 19, 2019 3:40AM

    I don't think a Gold and Lead comparison is a sound comparison. I think "die adjustment" strike for a better comparison of what the Lead medal looks like. either way, the thread has run it's course for me.

  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 13,776 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am completely unfamiliar with this piece and how it would have looked when struck. So, going on that, I believe because it is lead the strike would have been full. Again, I have no idea why this coin/piece would have any circulation at all. I must assume it was not well care for and any sliding around in a junk drawer would absolutely cause it to rapidly wear down. A lot of things to consider here. I would think it would grade XF to AU. It’s a very tough call not knowing what the actual design looked like to begin with.
    Happy hunting, Joe

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    I don't think a Gold and Lead comparison is a sound comparison. I think "die adjustment" strike for a better comparison of what the Lead medal looks like. either way, the thread has run it's course for me.

    The comparison should be VERY useful. The gold strike is what the design should look like. While a lead or white metal strike will not RETAIN this sharpness for very long...the softer metal will fill the die when it is struck.

  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2019 9:44AM

    The lead can only be compared to pure gold, as the gold/copper etc. alloy used for most coins/medals work hardens during the strike. Lead does not work harden and can even work soften depending on the composition. Thus, a medal made of close to pure lead will not only wear fast but the details can be peened (or mashed), giving the central letters a thick and low appearance.

    A lot of the detail has been lost, whether from wear or peening, I grade it fine. But I like it.

    edit - simple pressure over time, depending on how it is stored, can peen the details with lead.

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • abcde12345abcde12345 Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Started out probably at MS66 and nets at AU55 (maybe AU53 if you're super picky) based on indications of light pocket wear on what started out as a weakened strike (thus not MS67).

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IMO, you don’t get to assume a weak strike. Only when a preponderance of examples come weakly struck is that a valid assumption when assigning a grade. We have all of two examples at hand and the harder metal one is fully struck.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would say for pricing purposes, you might say low VF, like VF-20. But then you have to go into the uneven wear issues, which have to do with the fact the lead is soft and easily flattened.

    Some of the same issues come up with the lead or white medal political pieces that I collect.

    NGC over graded this as an AU-55. The piece has "tin pest" which now mostly arrested with proper storage, but if gets into some bad atmospheric conditions, watch out.


    This is such a rare item that condition is sort of secondary. The challegne would be to find another one if you want something better.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2019 10:35AM

    @BillJones said:
    I would say for pricing purposes, you might say low VF, like VF-20. But then you have to go into the uneven wear issues, which have to do with the fact the lead is soft and easily flattened.

    Some of the same issues come up with the lead or white medal political pieces that I collect.

    NGC over graded this as an AU-55. The piece has "tin pest" which now mostly arrested with proper storage, but if gets into some bad atmospheric conditions, watch out.

    Agree.

    @MFeld I'll post thoughts soon as promised..

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