@ndleo said:
I think we have two separate issues here. Do I think Brent is guilty? Yes, no doubt. You do not hire Jeffery Lichtman unless you are guilty of something major.
Do I think the scam was so large that all PWCC sold cards are tainted and should be shunned? No.
And the third issue is the alterations appear to be good enough that in many cases they aren't detectable from looking at a scan of the card in the after condition only.
@ndleo said:
I think we have two separate issues here. Do I think Brent is guilty? Yes, no doubt. You do not hire Jeffery Lichtman unless you are guilty of something major.
Do I think the scam was so large that all PWCC sold cards are tainted and should be shunned? No.
And the third issue is the alterations appear to be good enough that in many cases they aren't detectable from looking at a scan of the card in the after condition only.
And the 4th issue is that new cards are being identified on about a DAILY basis. And that's just vintage so far, and we've heard his lawyer say the modern will dwarf the vintage...
Agree that the scam was probably not 100% PWCC Sold cards. However, with new cards being identified so frequently, with a ton more to come, in the short term for me it's stay far away from any PWCC (or other dealers identified/involved) -- if they show in the Auction Prices Realized.
One thing needs to be clarified, and perhaps @AFLfan Todd can help. On Blowout, multiple users are using large subs that have received almost all 10s from PSA as evidence that PSA is “complicit” with shenanigans. My understanding was always that such subs are the result of minimum grade specifications in huge megasubmissions, where cards that don’t make that grade simply are not holdered. If this is in fact the case, making that known might help stem the tide of conspiracy theories.
The evidence on the BO board shows many new era cards in PSA 10 slabs shows very slight but evident trimming. Check out some of the basketball cards threads. Lichtman is correct: the new era stuff is proportionately larger than vintage just judging by the length of the PSA subs that sequentially include the altered cards with the before and after evidence. The number of sequentially numbered PSA 10s is mind boggling.
I wanted to add more points but they would move in the direction that questions our benevolent host.
Those concerns are making wonder about the whole “card encased in plastic” hobby I love so much.
EDIT: I don’t think that our host was “IN” on the scam.......but it raises other just as severe issues. I don’t see how some of those modern trim jobs met the min size requirement.
@PaulMaul said:
One thing needs to be clarified, and perhaps @AFLfan Todd can help. On Blowout, multiple users are using large subs that have received almost all 10s from PSA as evidence that PSA is “complicit” with shenanigans. My understanding was always that such subs are the result of minimum grade specifications in huge megasubmissions, where cards that don’t make that grade simply are not holdered. If this is in fact the case, making that known might help stem the tide of conspiracy theories.
I am not following the postings on Blowout, so I cannot comment specifically on what you have read there. However, a subs that have minimum grade requirements would certainly have a higher concentration of high grades than those that do not because the cards that do not meet the minimum requirement are not slabbed.
Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
I'm definitely checking provenance on any high profile cards I purchase. If they passed through PWCC in the past, I will avoid them out of an abundance of caution. Most cards are probably perfectly good but why take the chance? I'm not so concerned about lower dollar cards, even PSA 8 HOFers if they are <$100 in value. I also avoid cards that were previously sold by SSS.
Edited to add - I've ceased bidding on any PWCC auctions since these issues came to light.
If you really want to be safe, you should also avoid the other big ebay consignor. If you read about all the trimmers, the modern trimboys like to use both services.
@VintagemanEd said:
I mean a full list of all cards documented to be altered so far
Posting that list will likely get you banned or have the post removed ASAP. No one can be certain of any of the assertions made on any of the boards, although common sense and reasonable deduction will get you close to 100%. I am hopeful that PSA’s investigation will out dealers, list the altered cards and generally, present all the bad stuff out there.
@VintagemanEd said:
I mean a full list of all cards documented to be altered so far
Posting that list will likely get you banned or have the post removed ASAP. No one can be certain of any of the assertions made on any of the boards, although common sense and reasonable deduction will get you close to 100%. I am hopeful that PSA’s investigation will out dealers, list the altered cards and generally, present all the bad stuff out there.
My sense is that VintagemanEd is asking that PSA publish this list, but maybe I misread his intent.
@VintagemanEd said:
I found one on the BO site from 7-20-19. So my other question is if you bought a card not on any list am I supposed to send it in for review to psa?
@VintagemanEd said:
I found one on the BO site from 7-20-19. So my other question is if you bought a card not on any list am I supposed to send it in for review to psa?
You certainly can, they already looked at it once, so they probably wouldn't mind getting paid to do it again.
I would contact Gayle or Cosetta first and find out if the graders actually double check or look at a card with extra scrutiny if you think they might have been fooled the first time.
Hope your card is good!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@detroitfan2 said:
So are you saying that you will never buy another professionally graded card unless you have 100% certainty that it > was never sold by PWCC?
PWCC isn't the only seller that has had allegations leveled against them on the forums with before and after photos showing evidence of alteration. While the majority points to them, the items appear to be coming into the market from a number of sources.
Steve
Nobody sold as many $1,000+ cards over the past five years as PWCC. ……… on a percentage basis maybe they're not much different than some other sellers.
@VintagemanEd said:
I mean a full list of all cards documented to be altered so far
Suspected would be a better word. The Musial looks like it was "cleaned" there was a Mantle that was most likely altered. Some of the other examples looked like they were altered, you might have to go through the blowout threads and se for yourself.
There is a HUGE variance in the quality of scans on some of the suspected cards.
Some of the "investigators" are really good and present compelling arguments. others are idiots, jumping on the bandwagon and joining the lynch mob.
At least one of the cards reported to be altered has (according to that poster) is no longer in the PSA database of cards.
This is certainly WAY to early for any comprehensive usable list to be made up.
I don't think any of the TPG's are going to put out a list of their "mistakes", unless it's very very short.
Depending on what the FBI is actually investigating (I am sure they don't talk about an ongoing case) when they are done, there might be a list, but it's certainly not going to have all the altered cards on it.
One could argue that buying from PWCC right now is the SAFEST way to get an unaltered card! It looks like they have banned Moser (although he could easily submit through a different name) and guilty or not, they should be watching this closely from now on.
Of course the REAL issue is; how can you trust ANY card?
Look at the thread "Now we know where the PSA 10 Mantles went" is the Killebrew PSA 10 trimmed? Are the new holders bigger on the inside than the old. THAT card appears to be a LOT smaller than mine!
Edited to add; Here's my question; The PSA 10 Musial card was returned by the winner (I think). What happens to that card? Unless it's destroyed, marked as altered or permanently put on display somewhere, what's to stop it from re-entering the hobby at some point in the future? I can hear some seller already "Looks fine to me".
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@60sfan said:
Nobody sold as many $1,000+ cards over the past five years as PWCC. ……… on a percentage basis maybe they're not much different than some other sellers.
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, merely pointing out that there is more than one bad fish in the sea.
@JoeBanzai said:
Of course the REAL issue is; how can you trust ANY card?
There you go Joe, now you're grappling with what many of us have been grappling with and trying to verbalize in this thread.
At least 30 years ago (I am a relative newcomer to collecting) I bought a 1962 Twins Team card from an ad in SCD, (Sports Collectors Digest, for those who don't know). Seller had half and (I think) full page ads in most issues. Hard to find this high number "mint" and well centered.
Card was a "BLAZER"!
Was bragging about it to a local dealer (ME brag?) and he asked who I got it from. When I told him, he claimed that this particular seller "rolled and trimmed" cards. The "rolling" apparently made the cards a little bigger and he then cut them down to the right size. The sellers name was NOT Moser. I won't post his name here.
This was one of the first cards I eventually sent in to PSA. It came back a 9. This was the early days of TPG, could they have missed the alteration? Do they even measure for thickness? Is there even a tolerance for thickness?
At this point I decided to believe the card was good. Of course it wasn't a thousand dollar card!
If it IS altered, I am pretty sure it's not the only one in my set.
Please don't take offense, but it seems like some of the posters here think Moser invented altering cards (if he's guilty) and PWCC must have been in on it. Some even point to the TPG's!
Yes, it's wrong to sell an altered card without disclosure.
ANYONE who alters cards is NOT going to disclose it!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@rcmb3220 said:
PWCC had cards in their current auction that were previously outed on BO as altered. So I wouldn’t assume anything about the safety of their auctions.
The question is: Do they deserve our business?
SOME of the cards "outed" on BO are certainly altered. Just because someone posts a couple of scans doesn't prove anything. As a few others have stated, you need to take it on a card by card basis and make up your own mind.
If I were thinking of spending money right now, I would either hold off, worrying that the hobby is going to somehow implode, or I would be looking for bargains and buying like crazy.
Since I have no funds to spend now I will watch and see what happens.
@ndleo said:
Looking at that PSA 10 Mantle article, the Killebrew and 62 Mantle do look trimmed.
I'm not a Blowout expert, but the top edge near the label looks really short compared to other Killebrews' I see on ebay.
It's a LOT smaller than mine. That 10 went for a lot of money. There's only one 10 in the pop report. I think it was once owned by Dimitri Young. He got it (if I remember correctly) several years ago.
On a separate, but related, thought it IS nice to know that every single person represented by Jeffery Lichtman is guilty as charged. Sorry Jeff, it's not looking good for you in the eyes of some of the "jurors".
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
>
Logical thinking akin to saying "I know for a fact this pool contains piranas and, in fact, I see them. However, it's theoretically possible there are also piranas in the pools elsewhere in the neighborhood, so I'm going to swim in this one."
"Theoretically possible"?
It's absolutely certain. There might be MORE piranha in the PWCC pool, but they are in everyone's pool.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Do any of the old timers remember the WIWAG scandal? A lot of those threads got wiped since it made the host look bad. No list ever published and no public resolution. I ended up sending all of my key cards back to Santa Ana on my dime for review and reholder.
Amazingly the hobby didn't stop and everyone moved on.
So I may seem flippant or "unethical" to some, but at the end of the day this is a hobby I choose to participate in and I'm going to continue to enjoy it.
drc - I know tried to cover yourself with the "I'm not talking about you line", but I don't appreciate putting my name next to it. You don't know me and I have contributed to this board in many ways in an ethical manner. I am the one that broke two boxes of 2003-04 Topps Chrome BKB at a great price as a gift to the board.
Joe - I'm with you about not blanket banning all PWCC auctions, but Brent is guilty. The reason I separate the two is because most of the cards he lists come from collectors like you and me.
@ndleo said:
Joe - I'm with you about not blanket banning all PWCC auctions, but Brent is guilty. The reason I separate the two is because most of the cards he lists come from collectors like you and me.
The WIWAG scandal was not that long ago.
I'll say I wouldn't be surprised if he was guilty, but I still believe everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
You must have heard the old saying; "It's not what you know, it's what you can prove". I see some strong evidence of card altering, but even the guy who posted on BO says he only "suspects" Brent is involved.
If it turns out he had actual ownership of any of the altered cards before alteration, had them graded and then sold him through PWCC, I'll be right there with you. If so, he's got to be the biggest idiot EVER!
Ebay should be able to show you this in about 5 minutes.
Oh! That's right...... they're the auction house that allows bidders to make HUNDREDS of bid retractions with no penalty (unless this policy has changed) what's the difference in allowing that, and allowing shill bidding? NOT A THING!
If Brent's guilty, get rid of him, but don't fool yourself if you think it's some kind of answer.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
This is the post I am referring to as well. I read it at least twice very carefully, and went back and browsed it on a few other occasions.
Poster SUSPECTS Brent/PWCC was involved. I'll agree there could be some cards being soaked/cleaned/trimmed.
I am missing any clear evidence that PROVES Brent/PWCC bought any cards and then resold them, with or without alteration. Some of the cards listed might have been altered, some NO ONE can tell because of the difference in the resolution of the scans.
The very first card Larry Doby has a section that is "enhanced" that is supposed to show something. I am thinking he used the wrong word there in enhanced and must have meant "enlarged". If it's actually enhanced it has zero value as evidence, if it is enlarged it has very little value, when you start enlarging a scan the quality breaks down too much to prove anything.
You would need to provide a high quality scan of the PSA 6 card in order to come to a definite conclusion.
Some of the cards got the same or .5 different grade after "alteration", some looked worse! That makes no sense.
I still don't know what he is trying to say with the Berra card. Looks like a poorly cut card that got a 7 and was removed from the holder. Why not trim the left side and make it a 9 if you are a card "fixer". Looks like there's some money left on the table there!
Suspicion is one thing, evidence can be interpreted differently and proof is not there for me.
As I have said before, ebay would have the buyers information. They know who was buying the cards. If PWCC was buying cards listed in their auctions, I am thinking they are most likely guilty.
Again, ebay is worse than PWCC, they allow shilling in the form of multiple bid retractions by bidders. That's a fact, and few seem to care.
I have been falsely accused of a couple of (non card related) times in my life. The first time I thought I was going to get a beating for something my best friend did. I do not jump to conclusions.
If Brent is guilty he deserves to be punished. If he is innocent, I doubt that any of his accusers will feel bad about what they are saying now for even one nanosecond.
I'll keep looking here for any solid proof, but find myself repeating the same thing, so until I see something worth commenting on, I'm out.
Have fun collecting!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Comments
And the third issue is the alterations appear to be good enough that in many cases they aren't detectable from looking at a scan of the card in the after condition only.
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
And the 4th issue is that new cards are being identified on about a DAILY basis. And that's just vintage so far, and we've heard his lawyer say the modern will dwarf the vintage...
Agree that the scam was probably not 100% PWCC Sold cards. However, with new cards being identified so frequently, with a ton more to come, in the short term for me it's stay far away from any PWCC (or other dealers identified/involved) -- if they show in the Auction Prices Realized.
One thing needs to be clarified, and perhaps @AFLfan Todd can help. On Blowout, multiple users are using large subs that have received almost all 10s from PSA as evidence that PSA is “complicit” with shenanigans. My understanding was always that such subs are the result of minimum grade specifications in huge megasubmissions, where cards that don’t make that grade simply are not holdered. If this is in fact the case, making that known might help stem the tide of conspiracy theories.
The evidence on the BO board shows many new era cards in PSA 10 slabs shows very slight but evident trimming. Check out some of the basketball cards threads. Lichtman is correct: the new era stuff is proportionately larger than vintage just judging by the length of the PSA subs that sequentially include the altered cards with the before and after evidence. The number of sequentially numbered PSA 10s is mind boggling.
I wanted to add more points but they would move in the direction that questions our benevolent host.
Those concerns are making wonder about the whole “card encased in plastic” hobby I love so much.
EDIT: I don’t think that our host was “IN” on the scam.......but it raises other just as severe issues. I don’t see how some of those modern trim jobs met the min size requirement.
I am not following the postings on Blowout, so I cannot comment specifically on what you have read there. However, a subs that have minimum grade requirements would certainly have a higher concentration of high grades than those that do not because the cards that do not meet the minimum requirement are not slabbed.
I am still waiting on the list!
Do you think Pwcc’s cards in auctions now are clean?
I'm definitely checking provenance on any high profile cards I purchase. If they passed through PWCC in the past, I will avoid them out of an abundance of caution. Most cards are probably perfectly good but why take the chance? I'm not so concerned about lower dollar cards, even PSA 8 HOFers if they are <$100 in value. I also avoid cards that were previously sold by SSS.
Edited to add - I've ceased bidding on any PWCC auctions since these issues came to light.
The list of cards or the list of sellers and dealers? The shorter list consists of PWCC and TripleSSS, as a start, if that helps.
If you really want to be safe, you should also avoid the other big ebay consignor. If you read about all the trimmers, the modern trimboys like to use both services.
I mean a full list of all cards documented to be altered so far
Posting that list will likely get you banned or have the post removed ASAP. No one can be certain of any of the assertions made on any of the boards, although common sense and reasonable deduction will get you close to 100%. I am hopeful that PSA’s investigation will out dealers, list the altered cards and generally, present all the bad stuff out there.
My sense is that VintagemanEd is asking that PSA publish this list, but maybe I misread his intent.
I found one on the BO site from 7-20-19. So my other question is if you bought a card not on any list am I supposed to send it in for review to psa?
Help me out here. What do you mean?
You certainly can, they already looked at it once, so they probably wouldn't mind getting paid to do it again.
I would contact Gayle or Cosetta first and find out if the graders actually double check or look at a card with extra scrutiny if you think they might have been fooled the first time.
Hope your card is good!
Nobody sold as many $1,000+ cards over the past five years as PWCC. ……… on a percentage basis maybe they're not much different than some other sellers.
Suspected would be a better word. The Musial looks like it was "cleaned" there was a Mantle that was most likely altered. Some of the other examples looked like they were altered, you might have to go through the blowout threads and se for yourself.
There is a HUGE variance in the quality of scans on some of the suspected cards.
Some of the "investigators" are really good and present compelling arguments. others are idiots, jumping on the bandwagon and joining the lynch mob.
At least one of the cards reported to be altered has (according to that poster) is no longer in the PSA database of cards.
This is certainly WAY to early for any comprehensive usable list to be made up.
I don't think any of the TPG's are going to put out a list of their "mistakes", unless it's very very short.
Depending on what the FBI is actually investigating (I am sure they don't talk about an ongoing case) when they are done, there might be a list, but it's certainly not going to have all the altered cards on it.
One could argue that buying from PWCC right now is the SAFEST way to get an unaltered card! It looks like they have banned Moser (although he could easily submit through a different name) and guilty or not, they should be watching this closely from now on.
Of course the REAL issue is; how can you trust ANY card?
Look at the thread "Now we know where the PSA 10 Mantles went" is the Killebrew PSA 10 trimmed? Are the new holders bigger on the inside than the old. THAT card appears to be a LOT smaller than mine!
Edited to add; Here's my question; The PSA 10 Musial card was returned by the winner (I think). What happens to that card? Unless it's destroyed, marked as altered or permanently put on display somewhere, what's to stop it from re-entering the hobby at some point in the future? I can hear some seller already "Looks fine to me".
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, merely pointing out that there is more than one bad fish in the sea.
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
There you go Joe, now you're grappling with what many of us have been grappling with and trying to verbalize in this thread.
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
At least 30 years ago (I am a relative newcomer to collecting) I bought a 1962 Twins Team card from an ad in SCD, (Sports Collectors Digest, for those who don't know). Seller had half and (I think) full page ads in most issues. Hard to find this high number "mint" and well centered.
Card was a "BLAZER"!
Was bragging about it to a local dealer (ME brag?) and he asked who I got it from. When I told him, he claimed that this particular seller "rolled and trimmed" cards. The "rolling" apparently made the cards a little bigger and he then cut them down to the right size. The sellers name was NOT Moser. I won't post his name here.
This was one of the first cards I eventually sent in to PSA. It came back a 9. This was the early days of TPG, could they have missed the alteration? Do they even measure for thickness? Is there even a tolerance for thickness?
At this point I decided to believe the card was good. Of course it wasn't a thousand dollar card!
If it IS altered, I am pretty sure it's not the only one in my set.
Please don't take offense, but it seems like some of the posters here think Moser invented altering cards (if he's guilty) and PWCC must have been in on it. Some even point to the TPG's!
Yes, it's wrong to sell an altered card without disclosure.
ANYONE who alters cards is NOT going to disclose it!
PWCC had cards in their current auction that were previously outed on BO as altered. So I wouldn’t assume anything about the safety of their auctions.
The question is: Do they deserve our business?
Looking at that PSA 10 Mantle article, the Killebrew and 62 Mantle do look trimmed.
I'm not a Blowout expert, but the top edge near the label looks really short compared to other Killebrews's I see on ebay.
SOME of the cards "outed" on BO are certainly altered. Just because someone posts a couple of scans doesn't prove anything. As a few others have stated, you need to take it on a card by card basis and make up your own mind.
If I were thinking of spending money right now, I would either hold off, worrying that the hobby is going to somehow implode, or I would be looking for bargains and buying like crazy.
Since I have no funds to spend now I will watch and see what happens.
It's a LOT smaller than mine. That 10 went for a lot of money. There's only one 10 in the pop report. I think it was once owned by Dimitri Young. He got it (if I remember correctly) several years ago.
On a separate, but related, thought it IS nice to know that every single person represented by Jeffery Lichtman is guilty as charged. Sorry Jeff, it's not looking good for you in the eyes of some of the "jurors".
>
Logical thinking akin to saying "I know for a fact this pool contains piranas and, in fact, I see them. However, it's theoretically possible there are also piranas in the pools elsewhere in the neighborhood, so I'm going to swim in this one."
"Theoretically possible"?
It's absolutely certain. There might be MORE piranha in the PWCC pool, but they are in everyone's pool.
Do any of the old timers remember the WIWAG scandal? A lot of those threads got wiped since it made the host look bad. No list ever published and no public resolution. I ended up sending all of my key cards back to Santa Ana on my dime for review and reholder.
Amazingly the hobby didn't stop and everyone moved on.
So I may seem flippant or "unethical" to some, but at the end of the day this is a hobby I choose to participate in and I'm going to continue to enjoy it.
drc - I know tried to cover yourself with the "I'm not talking about you line", but I don't appreciate putting my name next to it. You don't know me and I have contributed to this board in many ways in an ethical manner. I am the one that broke two boxes of 2003-04 Topps Chrome BKB at a great price as a gift to the board.
Joe - I'm with you about not blanket banning all PWCC auctions, but Brent is guilty. The reason I separate the two is because most of the cards he lists come from collectors like you and me.
For a 1968 Mira Tuttosport Joe Louis, I would wrestle an Alligator. Any Alligators out there with a 1968 Mira Tuttosport Joe Louis, bring it on!
The WIWAG scandal was not that long ago.
I'll say I wouldn't be surprised if he was guilty, but I still believe everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
You must have heard the old saying; "It's not what you know, it's what you can prove". I see some strong evidence of card altering, but even the guy who posted on BO says he only "suspects" Brent is involved.
If it turns out he had actual ownership of any of the altered cards before alteration, had them graded and then sold him through PWCC, I'll be right there with you. If so, he's got to be the biggest idiot EVER!
Ebay should be able to show you this in about 5 minutes.
Oh! That's right...... they're the auction house that allows bidders to make HUNDREDS of bid retractions with no penalty (unless this policy has changed) what's the difference in allowing that, and allowing shill bidding? NOT A THING!
If Brent's guilty, get rid of him, but don't fool yourself if you think it's some kind of answer.
Here you go:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297351
This is the post I am referring to as well. I read it at least twice very carefully, and went back and browsed it on a few other occasions.
Poster SUSPECTS Brent/PWCC was involved. I'll agree there could be some cards being soaked/cleaned/trimmed.
I am missing any clear evidence that PROVES Brent/PWCC bought any cards and then resold them, with or without alteration. Some of the cards listed might have been altered, some NO ONE can tell because of the difference in the resolution of the scans.
The very first card Larry Doby has a section that is "enhanced" that is supposed to show something. I am thinking he used the wrong word there in enhanced and must have meant "enlarged". If it's actually enhanced it has zero value as evidence, if it is enlarged it has very little value, when you start enlarging a scan the quality breaks down too much to prove anything.
You would need to provide a high quality scan of the PSA 6 card in order to come to a definite conclusion.
Some of the cards got the same or .5 different grade after "alteration", some looked worse! That makes no sense.
I still don't know what he is trying to say with the Berra card. Looks like a poorly cut card that got a 7 and was removed from the holder. Why not trim the left side and make it a 9 if you are a card "fixer". Looks like there's some money left on the table there!
Suspicion is one thing, evidence can be interpreted differently and proof is not there for me.
As I have said before, ebay would have the buyers information. They know who was buying the cards. If PWCC was buying cards listed in their auctions, I am thinking they are most likely guilty.
Again, ebay is worse than PWCC, they allow shilling in the form of multiple bid retractions by bidders. That's a fact, and few seem to care.
I have been falsely accused of a couple of (non card related) times in my life. The first time I thought I was going to get a beating for something my best friend did. I do not jump to conclusions.
If Brent is guilty he deserves to be punished. If he is innocent, I doubt that any of his accusers will feel bad about what they are saying now for even one nanosecond.
I'll keep looking here for any solid proof, but find myself repeating the same thing, so until I see something worth commenting on, I'm out.
Have fun collecting!