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PSA Auction Prices Realized - Will Historical Sales Hurt the Value?
DotStore
Posts: 701 ✭✭✭✭
I was looking at a card this morning on eBay and added it to my Watchlist.
I then went to verify the PSA Cert number and noticed in the PSA Auction Prices Realized section that the card previously auctioned at PWCC. This made me remove the card from my eBay Watchlist.
Then I realized I've won auctions from PWCC in the past, and the PSA Auction Prices Realized shows that my cards were once auctioned at PWCC (getting a bad feeling in my gut).
Question: will seeing PWCC (or any other identified dealer in the current mess) hurt the value of the cards because of those dealers' involvement in the current investigation?
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I should think so. Most people will err on the side of caution and avoid if they have an option, I know I will. I'd like to also take the opportunity to say, cooperation or not, I hope they throw the book at these crooks!
Steve
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
Crack and resub raw!!
Now we know there are footprints of each card. Add a crease to throw people off the track!
I'm just a low end to mid grade guy for the most part and not super high dollar cards. I don't think I will be able to find a footprint of cards that I buy. Honestly, the vast majority of what I collect, I submit myself so I don't even worry about it.
I'll take a Joe Louis card in any condition poor, mint, authentic, bearded, you name it. Well, maybe not bearded.
Has a comprehensive list ever been posted of all identified cards PWCC sold that were altered?
No. They are also not the only seller these items have been identified as having been sold through, so don't limit your thinking to them being the only problem.
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
I thought of you at the National. There was a table dedicated to nothing but boxing. I'm sure you've run across this dealer in your search for Joe Louis cards but I don't remember the name of the dealer. Briefly looked as I as on my way to the bar and saw many Joe cards. Sorry I'm not better.
I love the boycott. I do not buy the big ticket items. Stay in the shallow end of the pool.
I probably have run across him. I wonder if it was Greg? He is a member here on the forum, I've bought a few Joe Louis cards from him, and he's a great guy. It might have been Adam Warshaw, aka Exhibitman. Anyway, I wish I could have been there. Unfortunately, while the National was happening, I was locked in a closet for four days. In other words, I was at home with my wife. As a matter of fact, unfortunately my wife and I are heading out the door right now to have dinner with her mother. It's become a Sunday night tradition. I dread it. Don't let them take me .......
Gary from Illinois has a lot of boxing and he has been at the national. That would be my guess.
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
The "big" one was the Musial PSA 10 and there was a Mantle that looked like it was "proven". MANY of the other cards in question were bad scans or bad comparisons and certainly couldn't be proven. Comparing print dots on the front of a card prove nothing, the card backs can show much more, but you need good scans to have any reasonable evidence.
Any high end card this Moser(?) guy consigned would be suspect. A list of his cards would be a better bet than some of the dubious scans I saw on the other message board.
I know the lynch mob has decided that pretty much every card PWCC sold was either shilled or altered, I am not really directly affected (nor will be) by this.
Hundreds of honest people consigned through PWCC too!
I don't EVER bid more than I am comfortable with paying, so to all the shillers (and there have always been many on auctions. PWCC didn't invent it) you can do your thing.
I also am a small fish in a big pond where collecting is concerned, so most of the cards I am interested in aren't going to be altered. However I will bet 100% that I have ended up with some altered cards in my collection.
I have bid on a couple of PWCC cards since this latest scandal, I was outbid, or shilled out.
That is the conundrum I have with PWCC. Lichtman's comments since he became Brett's lawyer indicate that there are other dealers involved as well. PWCC is probably the highest profile, but knowing the history of our hobby, there are likely more dealers playing this scam. So I'm not sure if any auction house is "cleaner" than anyone else and I doubt the full extent will ever be known.
The overwhelming majority of PWCCs consignors were other collectors like you and me. I know that no one wants to see Brett profit anymore from the hobby, but it does leave middle of the road collectors like me in a pinch since PWCC's legit business model worked for what I needed.
While I do bid on auction house items, I always thought the 20% charge for bidders kept the bids down on commodity items. I know that's how I bid and I do win my fair share so others must be bidding the same way.
I think it used to be called "Throwing the baby out with the bath water".
PWCC is under investigation by the FBI. It's public knowledge and undeniable. They have hired a criminal defense attorney. It's public knowledge and undeniable. Why would anyone want to do business with them under any circumstances in which you have a choice? Makes zero sense to me. But hey, everyone has to make up their own minds.
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
Funny, but inaccurate, I would say. Plenty of the cards they sold (99%?-99.9%?) were fine. So far, it looks like ONE consignor was able to buy, alter, regrade and consign with them. I am sure there are a few other, more careful guys doing the same thing with ALL the auction houses/consignees.
If you truly believe in your "diarrhea in the pool" theory, don't buy from cards from anyone. The "pool" is the hobby itself.
Is PWCC under investigation, or is it the guy who consigned the cards? Is it both? Are you guilty if you hire a lawyer? If you were being investigated and were innocent would you then NOT hire legal representation?
Here's what's true and undeniable. 99% (probably higher) of the cards listed by PWCC are not altered. Probably the same % as with any other auction house, so as I stated above, it's probably a good idea to stop buying any cards at all. Are you aware that packs are remade/resealed and boxes as well?
Do you think ANY of the auction houses do an independent examination of the cards? No, they just list them.
Could PWCC have had knowledge? It's certainly possible.
Have you read "Gone with the stains" claims that they "fix" LOTS of cards that pass TPG? Others know how to do it too.
Don't get me wrong, if PWCC knew what was going on, they will most likely be out of business and should be.
By the way, the police were called on me for neglecting my dogs. I was gone for less that 36 hours and had not one, but two people stop by the house, morning, afternoon and again next morning to make sure they had plenty of food and water. Fenced yard, not tied up, each dog had it's own shelter. Was not during cold weather. Neighbors never consulted with me, just assumed I was guilty. Same people let their dogs run loose to leave presents in my yard.
I'm sure my (idiot) neighbors think I am a bad person. Spoke to the officer who stopped by, he said there was no neglect.
THIS is the reality of our hobby folks.
Thanks for a very intelligent post.
In the end, it doesn't matter. Why do business with them until you know? As I said, each person makes their own decision.
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
This thread is not about doing business with PWCC. It's about whether cards that were once sold by PWCC will lose value BECAUSE they were once sold by PWCC. In my opinion, unless it's a very expensive card, the fact that it was once sold by PWCC will have no bearing on the card's value to 99.x percent of card collectors. To stay with the theme of this thread's analogies, it's a fart in a tornado.
> Do you think ANY of the auction houses do an independent examination of the cards? No, they just list them.
If that was what PWCC did, there would be no outrage.
Thank you for keeping this thread on track.
The reason I started this thread was based on my own actions. Once I saw a card I was interested in listed in the PSA Auction Prices Realized section (prior seller PWCC), I immediately removed the card from my eBay Watch List. This might be only a short/near term reaction -- as the investigation is ongoing, there's no telling how many cards will be identified as bad.
PWCC"s own lawyer made a comment that the amount of modern cards with issues will dwarf the vintage cards. That is scary as I have won quite a few high-grade modern cards -- and I have no idea if they are on the list...
I'm hoping PSA while doing their own internal investigation is able to do at least the following:
1) identify what batches/serial numbers of cards were submitted together (by the same person) where at least one card has been identified as an issue
2) search their database for all of the cards in that batch and see if they appear in the Auction Prices Realized section
3) if they appear, then perhaps put an asterisk next to that serial number to alert people the owner to send the card in for a free review of the card
In my opinion, PSA needs to take on some of the responsibility here. I mean, if one person submits 30 cards, and half of them are found to be bad -- why in the world would you go ahead and grade the other half without additional scrutiny or research???
Anyway, for the short term and until the dust settles, I am staying away from any card on the PSA Auction Prices Realized if it lists a known dealer connected to the investigation.
??? Referring to the stickers?
Because of the altered cards, the alleged shilling and the lack of full disclosure of certain conserved cards, I can understand why folks may apply a price discount to account for the uncertainty for any card and certainly for any high-end card. This has impacted my behaviour in general, as I sense that the market for certain cards that I collect have stalled a little. I am certainly not as active as I was a year ago, but I also have not stopped completely. I trust myself enough to look at scans available and make assessments about authenticity and pull the trigger, regardless of the seller.
Yes
I see your point, but have you read the descriptions in auction catalogs? No stickers, but nearly every card is hyped as "high end for the grade".
I realize a LOT of people HATE the stickers, but I don't mind when a seller points out something about their card that's "special", I take a closer look and decide for myself. I really don't see a difference between a sticker or a few lines of text.
What does bother me about the stickers is, an uneducated buyer could get confused, but only a fool ("fool and his money") would believe the sticker (or any hype) and pay more for an item because of it.
I worked in sales for a few years and this stuff is mild compared to what I saw.
Big difference between 'just listing them' and doing a secondary evaluation. Prob (and others) 'just lists them', P dubs got into grading the graders.
ETA: An 'independent examination' if you will.
Brent claims he reviews EVERY card over 200 value for his sticker program.
Joe you are very active in these threads but you don’t seem to be very up to date on the issues. Maybe spend some time understanding the mechanics of this whole thing.
I don't want to start a message board war, but another party (a third party if you will) also looked at all of the cards and passed them.
What am I missing here?
I am not trying to start a "war" either, please let me know what I missed.
To answer the OP's question, I wouldn't avoid a card because of ties to PWCC. Each card should be judged on it's own merits.
PWCC sold a lot of cards over the years. I'm guessing at least 200K-300K based on their feedback. The actual number of altered cards is probably no greater than 1%-2%. I can't believe that PSA would have passed more than that.
You missed all the detective work being done on the blowout forums. And I’m not just talking about before and after scans.
Can't remember.
Is there a serial # range that all these questionable cards fall?
Thanks for responding to my question. Apparently the person who accused me of ignorance doesn't have the time to do so.
Nope. I didn't miss that. Some good work there. I saw some examples of cards that looked to have been altered, and some that I couldn't tell. I cannot guarantee you I read every post on the blowout forums on the subject.
I also saw some accusations that sure sounded possible, maybe even likely, but were were unsupported by good evidence, and frankly a LOT of stupid comments and accusations.
It looks like this Moser person seems to have consigned several of those questionable/altered cards.
Also, there was in the past, some shill bidding going on (and proven/admitted(?) on some of the PWCC auctions. That seems to be a separate incident, but it does show some questionable business practices.
The winner of the PSA10 Musial cards posted that he was encouraged to bid on it by Brent, if I recall correctly, that is a red flag for me. People who run auctions should NOT be doing that imo!
What I didn't see was proof that PWCC owned any of the altered cards, or any proof that they knew the cards had been altered. It does seem likely that PWCC had a pretty good idea of what Moser was doing, but how do you prove it?
I have witnessed card shop owners altering cards on occasion for 30 years. Apparently Gone With the Stain has several processes they claim can improve a card that are undetectable by the TPGs. Unfortunately there are a lot of altered cards in circulation that have ended up in "slabs".
Anything else? Or do we continue to play guessing games? I am certainly quite capable of missing something. I am not going to reread those posts to try and figure out what you are referring to.
What proof is there that I missed?
I’m not up on everything like others but there allegedly seems to be many cards bought by PWCC, altered and sold by PWCC.
Frankly, even one is too many.
Also, there’s some stuff about the whole sticker issue - the stickers made it so that PWCC, who does not evaluate cards and trusts the work of third party graders (their words), then offers opinions of grade and condition by using stickers.
And consider perhaps some of these stickers were put on conserved cards? Maybe some of their own bought conserved and sold cards, even?
That seems to be the rub.
@JoeBanzai - I read this on BlowOut somewhere but there’s SOO many threads I’m not sure I can link you to it. Again I, like you, try to get AND have vetted the information as best I can but that is difficult.
I tend to not like the whole ‘an accusation is proof’ mentality that has swept through the country of late.
It’s a credible threat to justice.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Hi 51WP!
PWCC sold them, but did they own them?
Seems to me that these consignment businesses are a great tool for people to number one, bid on their own items and number two, insulate themselves to a certain extent from being identified as a seller of an altered card.
I am going to assume that any card in any auction in any holder might be altered and is easily shilled. I would say that this Moser guy might have gotten caught here, but I haven't seen any proof of PWCC owning any of the cards.
Operating a consignment business also seems to insulate the operator from possible fraud because the cards aren't actually owned by them.
Agreed.
I really think that the people who hate the stickers need to relax. Almost every single card that's ever been graded is "undergraded" according to the owner. I have several auction catalogs that have, in their descriptions, statements that imply the card was graded too low or "really close" to the next higher grade. NOTHING wrong with pointing out characteristics of a card that would make it "High End" for the grade
It's a sticker, get over it. Apparently the stickers increase prices, the sellers like that, so since they are trying to make the most $ they can, it's going to continue, so get over it.
Many of the biggest accusers do things like jumping into a thread and claiming others don't know what their talking about and then disappear without offering a reason or a link. Just "read the threads". Idiotic. I respect any opinion if it's backed up by more than "because I said so".
I would take Mastro's opinion with a huge container of Morton's salt. This is a guy that destroyed evidence and was trying to make himself look good for the judge. If we really believe that, then all of us have wasted our money putting pieces of cardboard into plastic holders.
If I saw a high dollar card that has a PWCC connection, I would review the scans in detail and research before pulling the trigger. If ANYTHING looked off, even a blurry scan, I would pass. However I would not blanket ban PWCC cards.
@JoeBanzai
Hypothetically speaking (because I’m using me/I but I definitely don’t alter cards)...
...if I buy a card, alter it and resell it without disclosure, that’s a crime. However, if I run a business where I do this 10 times a year, with thousands of cards it is a more heinous crime.
Now, let me openly state unequivocally for the record that I am not an anti-stickerite. I met Purple Sticker guy once; nice guy. Point out that a card is nice however you want. BUT...
...if I purchase a card, alter it to increase value exponentially, then sticker it to further champion how good a job I did altering it to pump up the price some more? Without any disclosure?
Yikes.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297351
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
From the list compiled by CaptSpaulding on Blowout Forum...serial numbers ranged from 14xxxxxx to 198xxxxx, from 24xxxxxx to 29xxxxxx, and from 40xxxxxx to 42xxxxxx. No serials beginning with 0,3,5,6,7,8,9 were on the list.
Also consider, and i mean no offense to our host, that when you decide to purchase something from PWCC - regardless of the consigner - say a 1948 Leaf football card - and then later you want a manager review of the item by the grader, you may be told no, you have to go back to PWCC as is happening now. These aspects of this problem are difficult to discuss here, understandably. But they are considerations folks should be aware of when thinking of buying from PWCC and have come up on other forum's posts. A friend had 21 1948 Leaf cards to return to PWCC at PSA's direction. That is over 20% of his registry set. In PSA's defense, I would challenge anyone to pick them out of a lineup from the post alteration scans alone. Without the pre alteration image, they look perfectly fine. It's a real challenge for the hobby and a serious set of crimes have been committed here.
Steve
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
That seems really odd. Why would this only involve cards graded from 2008-2012 and then from 2015 and later?
Absolutely!
However, I'll bet some dooshbucket will say "If it passes grading, it's not altered". In fact, didn't Brent_ kind of_ say just that?
Is it a crime to sell a card that someone else altered and sent to a TPG, then sends it to you to sell for them?
Of course the owner does NOT admit he did anything to the card.
First sentence on post from blowout says he suspects that PWCC is buying cards. Auction houses should NOT be allowed to bid on items they list (imo not sure if that's some kind of rule).
If they are in fact bidding/buying, I am on the bandwagon for running them out of business!
I looked at the currently listed Bob Gibson rookie cards and didn't see any with a "spot" on the top border. If this is not a print defect found on other Gibson rookies, that looks like it could be the same card.
Whoever altered it (if it was) did not do a job that increased the grade. In fact the spot on the top border looks worse on the newer graded one. Scans can show the same card looking differently if the scanners and/or the settings are different. Just compare the two scans of card with cert # ending in 7688 the spot is there but the cards don't look the same because of different scanner and/or resolution. It also looks like there's enough border on the right side to work with (?) so a "good" trimmer could improve corners and centering. Why stop at soaking if you are going to try to make money on this card.
Couldn't this just be a crack and resubmit?
In looking at the 48 Doby, I just cant trust an "enhanced PSA 6 image" as proof, you lose too much quality when enlarging to be sure, even though it looks like it might be tape residue that has been "cleaned". I looked at a few on ebay and noticed some print spots in common and also noticed the registration varies a LOT on this card. In fact one reprint had the same right border print defect!
Finally (I am not going to evaluate each card) I'm just confused at what the problem is with the Berra card. Looks like it was a factory mis-cut to me that SGC graded a 7. Again, if I'm "fixing" cards I am going to shave down the left side of the card, it looks oversize on the top and like you could really improve the card's grade/eye appeal, if it's not too small across the bottom.
Shouldn't ebay be able to prove beyond any doubt if PWCC was using their account to bid on their own auctions?
Wouldn't that be incredibly stupid?
I for one am going to wait and see what happens. Would I be shocked if it was found that PWCC was guilty? No.
The proof doesn't look good enough to me..........yet.
If you want to wait for a smoking gun, that’s fine. I am not. I think the evidence is overwhelming.
This.
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
As a wise man once said - "If the card fit, you must acquit"
For me the "Proof" is in Brent's actions. The fact he is issuing refunds in the $$$ thousands speaks volumes to me. If he's truly innocent, why issue a refund out of your own pocket? Just take the stance that you are innocent and blame it on the TPG who assigned the grade. The fact he is actually acknowledging cards were tampered with, and issuing refunds out of his own pocket tells me he has inside information on the what happened, and he's trying to be the "good guy" in order to reduce his sentence...
Also, his own lawyer has stated that he believes the size of the fraud involving current era cards will "dwarf" the vintage losses. Well, where does his own lawyer get that kind of inside information -- I'm thinking from someone who is in on the corruption...
Innocent people don't usually pay restitution out of their own pocket in the $$$ Thousands... and I'm pretty sure it's in the tens of thousands, and might also reach into 6 figures...
So are you saying that you will never buy another professionally graded card unless you have 100% certainty that it was never sold by PWCC?
The only graded cards I’m buying are low dollar ones to crack out for a raw collection (psa 5 Rickey rookie, bvg 6 Ozzie Smith rookie, etc). I’m not even going to bother checking those. But I’m never buying from PWCC again.
I'm not surprised to hear that at all having talked with folks that are getting a healthy fraction of 6 figures in refunds back individually...
Steve
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
PWCC isn't the only seller that has had allegations leveled against them on the forums with before and after photos showing evidence of alteration. While the majority points to them, the items appear to be coming into the market from a number of sources.
Steve
The Doomsday Collection
Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor | All-Time Dallas Cowboys | Bob Lilly Master | Pro Football HOF Dallas Cowboys
I think we have two separate issues here. Do I think Brent is guilty? Yes, no doubt. You do not hire Jeffery Lichtman unless you are guilty of something major.
Do I think the scam was so large that all PWCC sold cards are tainted and should be shunned? No.