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Is rust on an otherwise BU coin a bad thing? An Update!!

superpsychmdsuperpsychmd Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭
edited August 4, 2019 12:17PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Picked up a stunner uncirculated Mexican peso from 1908 but there appears to be some orange rust streaks present, almost look like crayon in a few crevices. Will the coin grade problem free or do I have to remove the rusty toning which is minimal?

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Comments

  • superpsychmdsuperpsychmd Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019 2:15PM

    Also it did not come off with a quick dip in e-z-est or Conserve.

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If I’m not mistaken rust is ED.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Hemispherical said:
    If I’m not mistaken rust is ED.

    Yes.

    But we need a picture. There's a big difference between actual "rust" and rust-colored toning

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019 2:27PM

    YES. Anything detracting on a BU coin hurts the grade and eye appeal.

  • superpsychmdsuperpsychmd Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭

    Ok let me add a photo now

  • superpsychmdsuperpsychmd Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭

  • superpsychmdsuperpsychmd Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭

    The coin is very lustrous, took the pic in poor lighting

  • JBKJBK Posts: 15,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll take some pie with that crust :o

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It doesn't look like rust to me. Try acetone.

  • superpsychmdsuperpsychmd Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭

    Yeah I will, can only help it.

  • SmudgeSmudge Posts: 9,526 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019 3:28PM

    Tape residue? Edit, part of it.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Smudge said:
    Tape residue? Edit, part of it.

    I had that thought also. Acetone will help decide

  • superpsychmdsuperpsychmd Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭

    It’s orange though so I’m not sure that would come from tape. Bought the coin in a flip but makes me think of the color of a rusted staple

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,349 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019 3:46PM

    @superpsychmd said:
    It’s orange though so I’m not sure that would come from tape. Bought the coin in a flip but makes me think of the color of a rusted staple

    There's a lot of things that could color it orange. I've even seen melted crayons on coins. Tape residue will usually head towards brown with age. And, of course, it will pick up the color of whatever sticks to it.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DIMEMAN said:
    Pass! If dipping didn't get it.....acetone won't touch it.

    That is not at all true. Conserve and E-Z-est are essentially aqueous detergents. Acetone is an organic solvent.

  • superpsychmdsuperpsychmd Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭

    I’ll try tomorrow and report on the results!

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @superpsychmd said:
    I’ll try tomorrow and report on the results!

    Before and after pics request.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DIMEMAN said:
    Pass! If dipping didn't get it.....acetone won't touch it.

    That is not at all true. Conserve and E-Z-est are essentially aqueous detergents. Acetone is an organic solvent.

    I thought E-Z-est was like Jeweler luster and took off everything including metal.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The orange stuff looks like some sort of corrosion and the black stuff looks like where something was previously removed.

  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree that the orange looks like tape residue. Either way, I would give it a soak in acetone first.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MasonG said:
    The orange stuff looks like some sort of corrosion and the black stuff looks like where something was previously removed.

    I would bet that there was a lot of black stuff on this coin at one time. The coin isn't undesirable, but I wouldn't send it in for grading.

  • superpsychmdsuperpsychmd Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭

    The reverse is really brilliant and without hairlines so I am hopeful it will grade

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,168 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DIMEMAN said:
    Pass! If dipping didn't get it.....acetone won't touch it.

    That is not at all true. Conserve and E-Z-est are essentially aqueous detergents. Acetone is an organic solvent.

    EZest (coin dip) is an acidic solution that removes the top layer of metal and everything on it - both polar and non-polar substances alike. We're not talking about solvent effects when using coin dip. The coin should only be in there for a couple of seconds or so in any event.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,168 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 3, 2019 7:30PM

    @DIMEMAN said:
    I thought E-Z-est was like Jeweler luster and took off everything including metal.

    It does at the surface. Solvent effect would come into play if choosing between polar (e.g. alcohols) and non-polar (e.g. acetone, xylene, etc.) solvents.

  • AercusAercus Posts: 381 ✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DIMEMAN said:
    Pass! If dipping didn't get it.....acetone won't touch it.

    That is not at all true. Conserve and E-Z-est are essentially aqueous detergents. Acetone is an organic solvent.

    EZest (coin dip) is an acidic solution that removes the top layer of metal and everything on it - both polar and non-polar substances alike. We're not talking about solvent effects when using coin dip. The coin should only be in there for a couple of seconds or so in any event.

    Solvent effects are always present. If you have an impermeable, highly non-polar substance, dip will do nothing. Acetone or xylene might (depends). Most commercial dip has surfactants, so it can get at slightly non-polar stuff, but it won't touch real gunk.

    Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,168 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Aercus said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DIMEMAN said:
    Pass! If dipping didn't get it.....acetone won't touch it.

    That is not at all true. Conserve and E-Z-est are essentially aqueous detergents. Acetone is an organic solvent.

    EZest (coin dip) is an acidic solution that removes the top layer of metal and everything on it - both polar and non-polar substances alike. We're not talking about solvent effects when using coin dip. The coin should only be in there for a couple of seconds or so in any event.

    Solvent effects are always present. If you have an impermeable, highly non-polar substance, dip will do nothing. Acetone or xylene might (depends). Most commercial dip has surfactants, so it can get at slightly non-polar stuff, but it won't touch real gunk.

    Solvent effects are de minimis given the strength of the solution and the exposure time (if you follow normal usage and/or the directions on the label). You're not leaving the coin in Ezest for several minutes or longer.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If it is rust - iron oxide - oxalic acid should take care of it. What will happen to the rest of the coin is a toss-up. In the photo it already looks dull from dipping in everything from corn liquor to mayonnaise.

  • kbbpllkbbpll Posts: 542 ✭✭✭✭

    This falls into the "it is what it is" camp. Just leave it.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If an acetone bath does not remove it, then it is not organic. If you have access to a materials lab (college, business etc.) then have it analyzed by a non destructive method....and be sure they understand how to handle a coin prior to allowing the test....Cheers, RickO

  • AercusAercus Posts: 381 ✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Aercus said:

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @DIMEMAN said:
    Pass! If dipping didn't get it.....acetone won't touch it.

    That is not at all true. Conserve and E-Z-est are essentially aqueous detergents. Acetone is an organic solvent.

    EZest (coin dip) is an acidic solution that removes the top layer of metal and everything on it - both polar and non-polar substances alike. We're not talking about solvent effects when using coin dip. The coin should only be in there for a couple of seconds or so in any event.

    Solvent effects are always present. If you have an impermeable, highly non-polar substance, dip will do nothing. Acetone or xylene might (depends). Most commercial dip has surfactants, so it can get at slightly non-polar stuff, but it won't touch real gunk.

    Solvent effects are de minimis given the strength of the solution and the exposure time (if you follow normal usage and/or the directions on the label). You're not leaving the coin in Ezest for several minutes or longer.

    No, this is incorrect. Solvent effects cover solubility (including of intermediates) and are always present. A substance that is harder to dissolve will cause a reaction to proceed more slowly. A reaction proceeding under nominal conditions quickly does not mean solvent effects are not present. Remember we are talking solid/liquid, not liquid/liquid.

    But we don't really need to dive too deeply into chemistry here. Simple thought experiment: put petroleum jelly on one area of a toned coin. Dip for however long is recommended. What will be the result? Now use xylene. What will be the result?

    PS: Fun fact, using acids on many popular adhesives will actually make it harder to dissolve them in aqueous solutions!

    Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Whatever it is, it's raised on the surface and probably will come off with proper conservation.

  • superpsychmdsuperpsychmd Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭


    After 4 hrs soaking in acetone
    I really love the reverse!

  • superpsychmdsuperpsychmd Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2019 12:19PM

    Even removed some blotchy toning around Mexicana
    This is going off to the grading gods this week!

  • superpsychmdsuperpsychmd Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2019 12:35PM

    Thanks everyone for your input!

  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks way better. Well done.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Will you submit it as an original, or as a "restrike"?

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1898 is the restrike year, not 1908.

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2019 7:13PM

    @MasonG said:
    1898 is the restrike year, not 1908.

    Yes, sorry. Read the catalog too quickly, plus a brainfart or two.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No worries. 1908s do have two different assayer initial options, though.

  • superpsychmdsuperpsychmd Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭
    edited August 4, 2019 7:52PM

    It’s the AM variety that I have

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very nice results... I trust you did not 'rub' with the Qtip though.... I do not see hairlines in the pictures, so that is good. Let us know what grade you receive... Cheers, RickO

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,869 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I had a similar experience long ago with a 1915 Lincoln. My conclusion was that I was able to remove ink stain with isopropyl alcohol.

    Your coin seemed to have two different types of discoloration, so I didn't expect you to be able to get both types in one shot. IPA has zero effect on a coin's surface. Nice work.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • superpsychmdsuperpsychmd Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭

    Thank you for your kind support gents. Usually I kill every coin I try to clean so I am excited this one really came out ok. There was another coin I saw when I bought this one, namely an 1819 Mexico 8 reales that had semi prooflike fields which also had a haze on it. I might buy that one now!

  • JBKJBK Posts: 15,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    I had a similar experience long ago with a 1915 Lincoln. My conclusion was that I was able to remove ink stain with isopropyl alcohol.

    I can attest to that. Alcohol will dissolve ink very nicely.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 15,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Keep us posted on the submission results.

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like happy endings. Out damn spot!

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  • superpsychmdsuperpsychmd Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭

    It will probably be weeks till I get grades back but I won’t forget to post it

  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,510 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @superpsychmd said:
    Thank you for your kind support gents. Usually I kill every coin I try to clean so I am excited this one really came out ok. There was another coin I saw when I bought this one, namely an 1819 Mexico 8 reales that had semi prooflike fields which also had a haze on it. I might buy that one now!

    Glad you got it off and it looks nice, but ezest should not be the starting point. Other chemicals, as noted above, are much safer and won't remove toning(surface) at the same time.

    Collector, occasional seller

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