@daltex said:
I maintain that Jeter's incredible selfishness in insisting on remaining at short when the Yankees acquired a vastly superior defensive shortstop really hurt the team.
I maintain that you have zero evidence that Jeter insisted on remaining at short, and zero evidence that it hurt the team that he did stay at short. Prove me wrong.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@daltex said:
I maintain that Jeter's incredible selfishness in insisting on remaining at short when the Yankees acquired a vastly superior defensive shortstop really hurt the team.
I maintain that you have zero evidence that Jeter insisted on remaining at short, and zero evidence that it hurt the team that he did stay at short. Prove me wrong.
First. Completely agree with dallas.
Second. Who gives a rats a$$?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@JoeBanzai said:
First. Completely agree with dallas.
Second. Who gives a rats a$$?
The first time I heard this myth, I didn't give a rat's a$$. Nor the second, third, fourth or fifth time I heard it. It grew mildly annoying the sixth time I heard it, and my annoyance grew as I heard it 10, 20, 50, 100, 500 times. At this point, while admitting there is no rational reason for it, the "Jeter refused to move to short" crap is probably the most annoying thing a person could say to me. On the other end of the spectrum, the funniest thing anyone could say to me is "George Brett was better than Mike Schmidt", but there aren't nearly as many people fool enough to believe that to counter the Jeter haters, who are legion.
@stevek said:
That's one reason I give Koufax the GOAT. Having to win just one game with any pitcher in MLB history throwing his best game, I'll take Koufax over any other without hesitation.
You better hope that one game is in Dodger Stadium.
In Dodger Stadium: 57-15, 1.37 ERA, completed 65% of his games
Everywhere else: 108-72, 3.38 ERA, completed 26% of his games
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@stevek said:
That's one reason I give Koufax the GOAT. Having to win just one game with any pitcher in MLB history throwing his best game, I'll take Koufax over any other without hesitation.
You better hope that one game is in Dodger Stadium.
In Dodger Stadium: 57-15, 1.37 ERA, completed 65% of his games
Everywhere else: 108-72, 3.38 ERA, completed 26% of his games
Could you please provide a link to that stat? Does it also have a yearly breakdown with WL record and ERA for home and road games? I think your premise about that stat may be misleading, although not intentionally.
Thanks, and after analyzing it, I'll post my opinion about it one way or the other.
@stevek said:
Could you please provide a link to that stat? Does it also have a yearly breakdown with WL record and ERA for home and road games? I think your premise about that stat may be misleading, although not intentionally.
Thanks, and after analyzing it, I'll post my opinion about it one way or the other.
It's all from his career splits off bb-ref. And yes, it's "misleading" depending on what you're trying to say, in that "everywhere else" includes all the years when he wasn't a good pitcher.
If you look at just his best season - his last, 1966 - the splits look like this:
In Dodger Stadium: 13-5, 1.52 ERA, completed 62% of his games
Everywhere else: 14-4, 1.96 ERA, completed 70% of his games
In his next-best season, 1963, the splits look like this:
In Dodger Stadium: 11-1, 1.37 ERA, completed 59% of his games
Everywhere else: 14-4, 2.31 ERA, completed 43% of his games
In 1966, and only in 1966, Koufax was about equally as good on the road as in Dodger Stadium. So for Koufax to be the best choice for your one game it should be in 1966, or it should be in Dodger Stadium. Which is some significant conditions required for a GOAT. Without any conditions, I'll take Pedro Martinez for my one game.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@stevek said:
Could you please provide a link to that stat? Does it also have a yearly breakdown with WL record and ERA for home and road games? I think your premise about that stat may be misleading, although not intentionally.
Thanks, and after analyzing it, I'll post my opinion about it one way or the other.
It's all from his career splits off bb-ref. And yes, it's "misleading" depending on what you're trying to say, in that "everywhere else" includes all the years when he wasn't a good pitcher.
If you look at just his best season - his last, 1966 - the splits look like this:
In Dodger Stadium: 13-5, 1.52 ERA, completed 62% of his games
Everywhere else: 14-4, 1.96 ERA, completed 70% of his games
In his next-best season, 1963, the splits look like this:
In Dodger Stadium: 11-1, 1.37 ERA, completed 59% of his games
Everywhere else: 14-4, 2.31 ERA, completed 43% of his games
In 1966, and only in 1966, Koufax was about equally as good on the road as in Dodger Stadium. So for Koufax to be the best choice for your one game it should be in 1966, or it should be in Dodger Stadium. Which is some significant conditions required for a GOAT. Without any conditions, I'll take Pedro Martinez for my one game.
<<< In Dodger Stadium: 13-5, 1.52 ERA, completed 62% of his games
Everywhere else: 14-4, 1.96 ERA, completed 70% of his games >>>
Thanks for the reply. That's good enough.
And that 1963 season sure looks pretty impressive to me - home and away.
So you or anyone else wouldn't want Koufax to pitch that key must win game at Dodger Stadium or elsewhere, over anyone else?
You choose whoever you want...but I'll take Sandy Koufax.
@stevek said:
So you or anyone else wouldn't want Koufax to pitch that key must win game at Dodger Stadium or elsewhere, over anyone else?
You choose whoever you want...but I'll take Sandy Koufax.
At Dodger Stadium in the 1960's? I'll take Koufax. If I get to pick another specific stadium and short period, I'm sure I'd pick whoever showed he was the best in that park in those years. Over Koufax's peak (1962-1966), his ERA in, for example, Cincinatti, was 3.14; Juan Marichal's ERA in the same park in the same years was 2.92.
But if I don't know what park the game will be in, and I don't know which specific season's skill level my pitcher will have for that game, I would not take Koufax. Outside Dodger Stadium, Koufax was still an excellent pitcher; but absent Dodger Stadium, his name would never, ever get mentioned in a GOAT conversation.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@stevek said:
So you or anyone else wouldn't want Koufax to pitch that key must win game at Dodger Stadium or elsewhere, over anyone else?
You choose whoever you want...but I'll take Sandy Koufax.
At Dodger Stadium in the 1960's? I'll take Koufax. If I get to pick another specific stadium and short period, I'm sure I'd pick whoever showed he was the best in that park in those years. Over Koufax's peak (1962-1966), his ERA in, for example, Cincinatti, was 3.14; Juan Marichal's ERA in the same park in the same years was 2.92.
But if I don't know what park the game will be in, and I don't know which specific season's skill level my pitcher will have for that game, I would not take Koufax. Outside Dodger Stadium, Koufax was still an excellent pitcher; but absent Dodger Stadium, his name would never, ever get mentioned in a GOAT conversation.
I just did some quick Googling. I hope we can agree that there's no more important game in MLB than a World Series game. These were the only WS road games that I saw that Koufax pitched in, unless i missed one.
1959 game 1 at Chicago: 2 innings pitched ERA 0.00
1963 game 1 at New York: 9 innings pitched ERA 2.00 (BTW: WS MVP award)
1965 game 2 at Minnesota: 6 innings pitched ERA 1.5 (BTW: another WS MVP award)
citing World Series stats to show a pitchers greatness is a little disingenuous and a lot deceiving, many excellent pitchers have very little if any opportunity to ever play in a WS. that's probably why MVP, Cy Young, ROY and all other awards are made based on the regular season. I have said it so many times that I'm sick of it already, but Koufax, on balance, ends up being just another of many very good pitchers. imagine being the guy who never saw anything past those first six years, he'd think Koufax was a chump. he redemmed himself well.
@keets said:
citing World Series stats to show a pitchers greatness is a little disingenuous and a lot deceiving, many excellent pitchers have very little if any opportunity to ever play in a WS. that's probably why MVP, Cy Young, ROY and all other awards are made based on the regular season. I have said it so many times that I'm sick of it already, but Koufax, on balance, ends up being just another of many very good pitchers. imagine being the guy who never saw anything past those first six years, he'd think Koufax was a chump. he redemmed himself well.
sometimes it just helps to play on a good Team.
<<< citing World Series stats to show a pitchers greatness is a little disingenuous and a lot deceiving, many excellent pitchers have very little if any opportunity to ever play in a WS. >>>
Your scathing remark doesn't seem to grasp the point as to why I posted those WS stats on Koufax. It was simply to prove that Koufax was great pitching in road stadiums in the biggest games.
Nothing disingenuous or deceiving at all about that because the outstanding stats aren't even remotely debatable that Koufax was great pitching in road stadiums in the biggest games. I repeated the comment to maybe help you comprehend it better.
And my guess is that you selectively missed the posted fact that Koufax won two, count 'em, two WS MVP awards.
If you wish to be a Koufax basher on some other points such as lifetime number of wins, then that's your prerogative, but on the point of Koufax being great in the biggest games on the road, third time repeating it I hope you got it now...this case is closed.
I’m still stumping for Whitey Ford. His career is the American League mirror of Sandy Koufax. Almost exactly. Sure, Sandy beats him in strikeouts but Whitey Ford did not have 6 mediocre years to start his career and played longer as well - without too much drop off. Counting the last two injury riddled seasons or not doesn’t matter - he pitched pretty well but not too often.
I don’t have Whitey Ford as the hands down, runaway greatest lefty of all time, mind you, but he was spectacular and often goes overlooked in these discussions. And in my opinion, he’s a worthy candidate and might be THE guy if he reaped the benefit of two additional prime seasons. I say prime because he was pretty dominant even as a rookie, going 9-1 with 7 complete games, 2 shutouts, a save and four other ‘games finished’ in 12 starts and 8 relief appearances; just about every relief appearance was a high leverage one. The next two years had major potential based on how he pitched before and after them. (Same for Feller and others previously mentioned, but I am not championing them. )
By the way, I’m aware they squared off in ‘63 in a Dodgers sweep, as well. I’m not sure 34 year old Ford versus 27 year old Koufax is really a fair tiebreaker, though. Oddly enough, I think age 27 was actually the best season for each player.
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I don’t have Whitey Ford as the hands down, runaway greatest lefty of all time, mind you, but he was spectacular and often goes overlooked in these discussions. And in my opinion, he’s a worthy candidate and might be THE guy if he reaped the benefit of two additional prime seasons.
Do you know how hard it must be to lead your league in ERA nine times? Roger Clemens is No. 2 on the all-time list, having done it seven times. Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux, and Randy Johnson each have done it four times. Tom Seaver did it three times, and Nolan Ryan and Jim Palmer each did it twice. Think about that: Grove led his league in ERA as many times as Seaver, Ryan and Palmer put together.
How many times did Whitey Ford lead his league in ERA ?
While Ford was very good, he can join the discussion of "one of" the best lefties of all time.
He can not join the discussion of GOAT.
Whitey Ford led the league in ERA twice, finished 2nd once and third twice. He was top 10 eleven times in 16 seasons.
ERA crowns are impressive - no doubt. Grove had 9 top finishes and had 13 top 10 in 17 seasons.
Noteworthy, though, that Whiteys career ERA is .31 lower.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@keets said:
citing World Series stats to show a pitchers greatness is a little disingenuous and a lot deceiving, many excellent pitchers have very little if any opportunity to ever play in a WS. that's probably why MVP, Cy Young, ROY and all other awards are made based on the regular season. I have said it so many times that I'm sick of it already, but Koufax, on balance, ends up being just another of many very good pitchers. imagine being the guy who never saw anything past those first six years, he'd think Koufax was a chump. he redemmed himself well.
sometimes it just helps to play on a good Team.
<<< citing World Series stats to show a pitchers greatness is a little disingenuous and a lot deceiving, many excellent pitchers have very little if any opportunity to ever play in a WS. >>>
Your scathing remark doesn't seem to grasp the point as to why I posted those WS stats on Koufax. It was simply to prove that Koufax was great pitching in road stadiums in the biggest games.
Nothing disingenuous or deceiving at all about that because the outstanding stats aren't even remotely debatable that Koufax was great pitching in road stadiums in the biggest games. I repeated the comment to maybe help you comprehend it better.
And my guess is that you selectively missed the posted fact that Koufax won two, count 'em, two WS MVP awards.
If you wish to be a Koufax basher on some other points such as lifetime number of wins, then that's your prerogative, but on the point of Koufax being great in the biggest games on the road, third time repeating it I hope you got it now...this case is closed.
I don't see any Koufax bashing going on anywhere.
What I can't argue with is your opinion of picking him as your "one guy to win one big game", Lefty Grove in 1931, Warren Spahn in 1953, Bob Gibson in 1968, Steve Carlton in 1972, Nolan Ryan in 1981, Pedro Martinez in 2000 and I would think a few more would be equally good choices, but Koufax is as good as any. Koufax in 1966 was as good as it gets.
The OP was not about who you would pick to win one game, but left handed GOAT.
He has plenty of great numbers and had a superb run of 5 years, but when you point to those years as proof he was a GOAT candidate, you are going to hear about 1957 to 1961 (I'll ignore 1955-56) where he was just an average pitcher, that is another 5 year run. You can't just ignore the fact that 1/2 his career he was an average pitcher. perhaps above average, but not great.
I am also in the camp that says WS victories are not a very good way of determining GOATs it IS both "disingenuous and deceiving" in that it completely excludes players who didn't play in the post season.
I am in no way "bashing" Koufax, he was a great pitcher with a short career and a terrific 4-5 year peak. I didn't need to look past his 2324 innings pitched to eliminate him from my GOAT list, Not bashing, just comparing positives and negatives.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I’m still stumping for Whitey Ford. His career is the American League mirror of Sandy Koufax. Almost exactly. Sure, Sandy beats him in strikeouts but Whitey Ford did not have 6 mediocre years to start his career and played longer as well - without too much drop off. Counting the last two injury riddled seasons or not doesn’t matter - he pitched pretty well but not too often.
I don’t have Whitey Ford as the hands down, runaway greatest lefty of all time, mind you, but he was spectacular and often goes overlooked in these discussions. And in my opinion, he’s a worthy candidate and might be THE guy if he reaped the benefit of two additional prime seasons. I say prime because he was pretty dominant even as a rookie, going 9-1 with 7 complete games, 2 shutouts, a save and four other ‘games finished’ in 12 starts and 8 relief appearances; just about every relief appearance was a high leverage one. The next two years had major potential based on how he pitched before and after them. (Same for Feller and others previously mentioned, but I am not championing them. )
By the way, I’m aware they squared off in ‘63 in a Dodgers sweep, as well. I’m not sure 34 year old Ford versus 27 year old Koufax is really a fair tiebreaker, though. Oddly enough, I think age 27 was actually the best season for each player.
Nobody is going to get me to knock Whitey Ford, and I know you weren't trying to do that at all. Ford is one of my favorite baseball players of all time.
But the bottom line if I'm a hitter facing either one in their prime, I'd rather face Whitey Ford, in my opinion the least painful execution so to speak - LOL.
@keets said:
citing World Series stats to show a pitchers greatness is a little disingenuous and a lot deceiving, many excellent pitchers have very little if any opportunity to ever play in a WS. that's probably why MVP, Cy Young, ROY and all other awards are made based on the regular season. I have said it so many times that I'm sick of it already, but Koufax, on balance, ends up being just another of many very good pitchers. imagine being the guy who never saw anything past those first six years, he'd think Koufax was a chump. he redemmed himself well.
sometimes it just helps to play on a good Team.
<<< citing World Series stats to show a pitchers greatness is a little disingenuous and a lot deceiving, many excellent pitchers have very little if any opportunity to ever play in a WS. >>>
Your scathing remark doesn't seem to grasp the point as to why I posted those WS stats on Koufax. It was simply to prove that Koufax was great pitching in road stadiums in the biggest games.
Nothing disingenuous or deceiving at all about that because the outstanding stats aren't even remotely debatable that Koufax was great pitching in road stadiums in the biggest games. I repeated the comment to maybe help you comprehend it better.
And my guess is that you selectively missed the posted fact that Koufax won two, count 'em, two WS MVP awards.
If you wish to be a Koufax basher on some other points such as lifetime number of wins, then that's your prerogative, but on the point of Koufax being great in the biggest games on the road, third time repeating it I hope you got it now...this case is closed.
I don't see any Koufax bashing going on anywhere.
What I can't argue with is your opinion of picking him as your "one guy to win one big game", Lefty Grove in 1931, Warren Spahn in 1953, Bob Gibson in 1968, Steve Carlton in 1972, Nolan Ryan in 1981, Pedro Martinez in 2000 and I would think a few more would be equally good choices, but Koufax is as good as any. Koufax in 1966 was as good as it gets.
The OP was not about who you would pick to win one game, but left handed GOAT.
He has plenty of great numbers and had a superb run of 5 years, but when you point to those years as proof he was a GOAT candidate, you are going to hear about 1957 to 1961 (I'll ignore 1955-56) where he was just an average pitcher, that is another 5 year run. You can't just ignore the fact that 1/2 his career he was an average pitcher. perhaps above average, but not great.
I am also in the camp that says WS victories are not a very good way of determining GOATs it IS both "disingenuous and deceiving" in that it completely excludes players who didn't play in the post season.
I am in no way "bashing" Koufax, he was a great pitcher with a short career and a terrific 4-5 year peak. I didn't need to look past his 2324 innings pitched to eliminate him from my GOAT list, Not bashing, just comparing positives and negatives.
You make a number of valid points.
In my view on pitchers, if I'm a manager, who I would select to be the starting pitcher to give my team the best chance to win that one big game, I don't care which stadium it's played in, it would be Sandy Koufax. In my view, a metaphor such as this does exemplify what a GOAT should be.
IE: if I'm putting together an all time greatest team to win that one all time greatest game, Koufax is my starting pitcher, without hesitation.
I realize some may have a different metaphor for the one big game, and a manager wouldn't go wrong with any of the great pitchers that you mentioned.
I don’t have Whitey Ford as the hands down, runaway greatest lefty of all time, mind you, but he was spectacular and often goes overlooked in these discussions. And in my opinion, he’s a worthy candidate and might be THE guy if he reaped the benefit of two additional prime seasons.
Do you know how hard it must be to lead your league in ERA nine times? Roger Clemens is No. 2 on the all-time list, having done it seven times. Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux, and Randy Johnson each have done it four times. Tom Seaver did it three times, and Nolan Ryan and Jim Palmer each did it twice. Think about that: Grove led his league in ERA as many times as Seaver, Ryan and Palmer put together.
How many times did Whitey Ford lead his league in ERA ?
While Ford was very good, he can join the discussion of "one of" the best lefties of all time.
He can not join the discussion of GOAT.
Whitey Ford led the league in ERA twice, finished 2nd once and third twice. He was top 10 eleven times in 16 seasons.
ERA crowns are impressive - no doubt. Grove had 9 top finishes and had 13 top 10 in 17 seasons.
Noteworthy, though, that Whiteys career ERA is .31 lower.
Whitey Ford was a great pitcher. He pitched for great teams. He pitched great in the postseason. He has great numbers. No one is saying he doesn't belong in the conversation of one of the greatest left handed pitchers of all time.
While Whitey Ford's career ERA was .31 lower, we also know that Whitey Fords career ERA+
was 133. Lefty Grove's career ERA+ was 148.
Serious question - is the jump from 133 to 148 that big of a deal? Seems comparable but I’m not sure if each increment of one represents ‘exponential’ improvement.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
I don’t have Whitey Ford as the hands down, runaway greatest lefty of all time, mind you, but he was spectacular and often goes overlooked in these discussions. And in my opinion, he’s a worthy candidate and might be THE guy if he reaped the benefit of two additional prime seasons.
Do you know how hard it must be to lead your league in ERA nine times? Roger Clemens is No. 2 on the all-time list, having done it seven times. Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux, and Randy Johnson each have done it four times. Tom Seaver did it three times, and Nolan Ryan and Jim Palmer each did it twice. Think about that: Grove led his league in ERA as many times as Seaver, Ryan and Palmer put together.
How many times did Whitey Ford lead his league in ERA ?
While Ford was very good, he can join the discussion of "one of" the best lefties of all time.
He can not join the discussion of GOAT.
Whitey Ford led the league in ERA twice, finished 2nd once and third twice. He was top 10 eleven times in 16 seasons.
ERA crowns are impressive - no doubt. Grove had 9 top finishes and had 13 top 10 in 17 seasons.
Noteworthy, though, that Whiteys career ERA is .31 lower.
I read a lot of biographies of baseball players.
Here's a fact or two about Ford you won't see on any stat sheet;
In one of the books (either a Mantle or Berra bio) I read that Casey Stengel would hold Whitey out of "easily winnable" games and match him up against the best opponents best pitcher. This cost him quite a few starts. I don't see much info on his injuries, but he went from the low 30's per year (except for 1955) to the high 30's per year in starts after Casey was let go.
Given a regular spot in the rotation, he probably would have BOTH won more games and had an even higher winning %.
Another interesting (to me anyway) fact about Whitey is that he had begun to lose a bit off his fast ball and he completely changed how he pitched, going from a fastball/curveball pitcher to a guy who could throw several different pitches at several different speeds. That shows an ability to pitch, not just an ability to throw the ball by people.
His ERA was fantastic!
When looking at the GOAT list I just couldn't get past his low innings pitched totals.
I think he would have been great in 1951 and 1952. He got over 100 innings pitched in 1950 and did very well. I am not sure another 400 innings and 36 wins would have put him in the running for GOAT.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I don’t have Whitey Ford as the hands down, runaway greatest lefty of all time, mind you, but he was spectacular and often goes overlooked in these discussions. And in my opinion, he’s a worthy candidate and might be THE guy if he reaped the benefit of two additional prime seasons.
Do you know how hard it must be to lead your league in ERA nine times? Roger Clemens is No. 2 on the all-time list, having done it seven times. Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux, and Randy Johnson each have done it four times. Tom Seaver did it three times, and Nolan Ryan and Jim Palmer each did it twice. Think about that: Grove led his league in ERA as many times as Seaver, Ryan and Palmer put together.
How many times did Whitey Ford lead his league in ERA ?
While Ford was very good, he can join the discussion of "one of" the best lefties of all time.
He can not join the discussion of GOAT.
Whitey Ford led the league in ERA twice, finished 2nd once and third twice. He was top 10 eleven times in 16 seasons.
ERA crowns are impressive - no doubt. Grove had 9 top finishes and had 13 top 10 in 17 seasons.
Noteworthy, though, that Whiteys career ERA is .31 lower.
I read a lot of biographies of baseball players.
Here's a fact or two about Ford you won't see on any stat sheet;
In one of the books (either a Mantle or Berra bio) I read that Casey Stengel would hold Whitey out of "easily winnable" games and match him up against the best opponents best pitcher. This cost him quite a few starts. I don't see much info on his injuries, but he went from the low 30's per year (except for 1955) to the high 30's per year in starts after Casey was let go.
Given a regular spot in the rotation, he probably would have BOTH won more games and had an even higher winning %.
Another interesting (to me anyway) fact about Whitey is that he had begun to lose a bit off his fast ball and he completely changed how he pitched, going from a fastball/curveball pitcher to a guy who could throw several different pitches at several different speeds. That shows an ability to pitch, not just an ability to throw the ball by people.
His ERA was fantastic!
When looking at the GOAT list I just couldn't get past his low innings pitched totals.
I think he would have been great in 1951 and 1952. He got over 100 innings pitched in 1950 and did very well. I am not sure another 400 innings and 36 wins would have put him in the running for GOAT.
If we’re going in depth, Whitey Ford was not really himself in 1953, either. Teammates said he was a little different when he came back and it took him a while to readjust to the majors. Not combat related - he was stateside - but rust. He still had a solid season by all standards but again, that’s his age 22-24 seasons that were impacted. A lower career ERA and 300 wins might change the viewpoint/narrative a bit.
Obviously, ifs and buts are not candy and nuts.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
Also, apropos of the website, this is my rookie card of my guy. Very similar to the player, the card is both iconic and underrated:
I also love his ‘53 Bowman card but no longer have one. That whole set is beautiful, but I digress.
Like you, I can’t knock Sandy but I can make a case for Whitey.
This is a great thread!
Whitey Ford not only a great player on the field, but a great guy off the field as well. I can't recall ever reading a negative comment about Whitey Ford.
My sister, husband and nephew thru a mutual family friend with George Steinbrenner, they lived in Florida at the time, in a Yankees spring training game, were invited to sit with Steinbrenner during the game.
Steinbrenner couldn't have been more cordial and focused on talking baseball with my nephew throughout the entire game, as if the game wasn't even going on.
Whitey Ford happened to be there, and sat with them for awhile, having fun talking baseball and gave my nephew an autographed baseball which he signed right there. Tremendous hospitality above and beyond all reasonable expectations by Steinbrenner and Ford.
I'm glad that Whitey is still alive and hope he is doing as well as possible.
Also, apropos of the website, this is my rookie card of my guy. Very similar to the player, the card is both iconic and underrated:
I also love his ‘53 Bowman card but no longer have one. That whole set is beautiful, but I digress.
Like you, I can’t knock Sandy but I can make a case for Whitey.
This is a great thread!
Whitey Ford not only a great player on the field, but a great guy off the field as well. I can't recall ever reading a negative comment about Whitey Ford.
My sister, husband and nephew thru a mutual family friend with George Steinbrenner, they lived in Florida at the time, in a Yankees spring training game, were invited to sit with Steinbrenner during the game.
Steinbrenner couldn't have been more cordial and focused on talking baseball with my nephew throughout the entire game, as if the game wasn't even going on.
Whitey Ford happened to be there, and sat with them for awhile, having fun talking baseball and gave my nephew an autographed baseball which he signed right there. Tremendous hospitality above and beyond all reasonable expectations by Steinbrenner and Ford.
I'm glad that Whitey is still alive and hope he is doing as well as possible.
In a small world type coincidence, my cousin lives in the same development as Whitey Ford (when she is down in Florida). Understandably, he is a lot quieter and more subdued but still doing pretty good from what I understand and last I heard (6 months ago).
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
Since I am way out of my league on this thread, I will not comment on who the greatest pitcher of all time is. I don't want to end up like this guy.....
Also, apropos of the website, this is my rookie card of my guy. Very similar to the player, the card is both iconic and underrated:
I also love his ‘53 Bowman card but no longer have one. That whole set is beautiful, but I digress.
Like you, I can’t knock Sandy but I can make a case for Whitey.
This is a great thread!
Whitey Ford not only a great player on the field, but a great guy off the field as well. I can't recall ever reading a negative comment about Whitey Ford.
My sister, husband and nephew thru a mutual family friend with George Steinbrenner, they lived in Florida at the time, in a Yankees spring training game, were invited to sit with Steinbrenner during the game.
Steinbrenner couldn't have been more cordial and focused on talking baseball with my nephew throughout the entire game, as if the game wasn't even going on.
Whitey Ford happened to be there, and sat with them for awhile, having fun talking baseball and gave my nephew an autographed baseball which he signed right there. Tremendous hospitality above and beyond all reasonable expectations by Steinbrenner and Ford.
I'm glad that Whitey is still alive and hope he is doing as well as possible.
In a small world type coincidence, my cousin lives in the same development as Whitey Ford (when she is down in Florida). Understandably, he is a lot quieter and more subdued but still doing pretty good from what I understand and last I heard (6 months ago).
That's good news.
Sometimes when someone is 90 years old, I'm almost afraid to ask. Especially since Whitey certainly enjoyed going out and about on the town with his pals Mickey and Billy, and the alcohol abundantly flowed.
I recall, and you've probably heard this, Mickey saying tongue in cheek, that If he knew he was going to live this long, he would have taken better care of himself. Mickey passed at 63, Billy at 61, and I'd be sure that Whitey has no complaints that he's made it to 90 and hopefully many years beyond.
so stevek "closes the case" on my comment but agrees with someone who agrees with me. that is quite weird. I'm not a Koufax basher, I just think an opinion on an entire career should be based on an entire career and not half a career.
@1970s said:
Career Leaders
Rank Player Adjusted ERA+
1 Mariano Rivera 205
2 Clayton Kershaw 159
3 Pedro Martínez 154
4 Jim Devlin 150
5 Lefty Grove 148
T-6 Walter Johnson 147
Hoyt Wilhelm
T-8 Dan Quisenberry 146
Smoky Joe Wood
10 Ed Walsh 145
11 Roger Clemens 143
T-12 Addie Joss 142
Brandon Webb
14 Trevor Hoffman 141
15 Kid Nichols 140
16 Mordecai Brown 139
T-17 John Franco 138
Chris Sale
Cy Young
T-20 Johan Santana 136
Bruce Sutter
T-22 Pete Alexander 135
Christy Mathewson
Randy Johnson
Rube Waddell Whitey Ford 133
Does not look all that out of place so I added Whitey and his ERA+.
Randy Johnson is two above Ford and in the discussion for GOAT but not so for Whitey? Whitey had more complete games and more shutouts than Randy, too, but obviously fewer Ks and Cy Young’s. And around 50 of Randy Johnson’s wins came after age 40 and he was a very average pitcher hanging on at that point and pitching for wins and trading on reputation.
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@keets said:
so stevek "closes the case" on my comment but agrees with someone who agrees with me. that is quite weird. I'm not a Koufax basher, I just think an opinion on an entire career should be based on an entire career and not half a career.
Koufax won, I don't know how many awards. That is an outstanding career, and in totality in my view is the GOAT regardless of the brevity of his great years.
I think you keep misconstruing my comments, and I'm not going to try and figure it out - LOL
Suffice to say that I respect everyone's opinion on some of the other names mentioned here as GOAT.
Comments
I maintain that you have zero evidence that Jeter insisted on remaining at short, and zero evidence that it hurt the team that he did stay at short. Prove me wrong.
Mike Schmidt became jealous of Brett for the rest of his life.
Most convincing argument EVER!
First. Completely agree with dallas.
Second. Who gives a rats a$$?
The first time I heard this myth, I didn't give a rat's a$$. Nor the second, third, fourth or fifth time I heard it. It grew mildly annoying the sixth time I heard it, and my annoyance grew as I heard it 10, 20, 50, 100, 500 times. At this point, while admitting there is no rational reason for it, the "Jeter refused to move to short" crap is probably the most annoying thing a person could say to me. On the other end of the spectrum, the funniest thing anyone could say to me is "George Brett was better than Mike Schmidt", but there aren't nearly as many people fool enough to believe that to counter the Jeter haters, who are legion.
You better hope that one game is in Dodger Stadium.
In Dodger Stadium: 57-15, 1.37 ERA, completed 65% of his games
Everywhere else: 108-72, 3.38 ERA, completed 26% of his games
Could you please provide a link to that stat? Does it also have a yearly breakdown with WL record and ERA for home and road games? I think your premise about that stat may be misleading, although not intentionally.
Thanks, and after analyzing it, I'll post my opinion about it one way or the other.
It's all from his career splits off bb-ref. And yes, it's "misleading" depending on what you're trying to say, in that "everywhere else" includes all the years when he wasn't a good pitcher.
If you look at just his best season - his last, 1966 - the splits look like this:
In Dodger Stadium: 13-5, 1.52 ERA, completed 62% of his games
Everywhere else: 14-4, 1.96 ERA, completed 70% of his games
In his next-best season, 1963, the splits look like this:
In Dodger Stadium: 11-1, 1.37 ERA, completed 59% of his games
Everywhere else: 14-4, 2.31 ERA, completed 43% of his games
In 1966, and only in 1966, Koufax was about equally as good on the road as in Dodger Stadium. So for Koufax to be the best choice for your one game it should be in 1966, or it should be in Dodger Stadium. Which is some significant conditions required for a GOAT. Without any conditions, I'll take Pedro Martinez for my one game.
<<< In Dodger Stadium: 13-5, 1.52 ERA, completed 62% of his games
Everywhere else: 14-4, 1.96 ERA, completed 70% of his games >>>
Thanks for the reply. That's good enough.
And that 1963 season sure looks pretty impressive to me - home and away.
So you or anyone else wouldn't want Koufax to pitch that key must win game at Dodger Stadium or elsewhere, over anyone else?
You choose whoever you want...but I'll take Sandy Koufax.
At Dodger Stadium in the 1960's? I'll take Koufax. If I get to pick another specific stadium and short period, I'm sure I'd pick whoever showed he was the best in that park in those years. Over Koufax's peak (1962-1966), his ERA in, for example, Cincinatti, was 3.14; Juan Marichal's ERA in the same park in the same years was 2.92.
But if I don't know what park the game will be in, and I don't know which specific season's skill level my pitcher will have for that game, I would not take Koufax. Outside Dodger Stadium, Koufax was still an excellent pitcher; but absent Dodger Stadium, his name would never, ever get mentioned in a GOAT conversation.
I just did some quick Googling. I hope we can agree that there's no more important game in MLB than a World Series game. These were the only WS road games that I saw that Koufax pitched in, unless i missed one.
1959 game 1 at Chicago: 2 innings pitched ERA 0.00
1963 game 1 at New York: 9 innings pitched ERA 2.00 (BTW: WS MVP award)
1965 game 2 at Minnesota: 6 innings pitched ERA 1.5 (BTW: another WS MVP award)
I'll still take Sandy Koufax.
citing World Series stats to show a pitchers greatness is a little disingenuous and a lot deceiving, many excellent pitchers have very little if any opportunity to ever play in a WS. that's probably why MVP, Cy Young, ROY and all other awards are made based on the regular season. I have said it so many times that I'm sick of it already, but Koufax, on balance, ends up being just another of many very good pitchers. imagine being the guy who never saw anything past those first six years, he'd think Koufax was a chump. he redemmed himself well.
sometimes it just helps to play on a good Team.
<<< citing World Series stats to show a pitchers greatness is a little disingenuous and a lot deceiving, many excellent pitchers have very little if any opportunity to ever play in a WS. >>>
Your scathing remark doesn't seem to grasp the point as to why I posted those WS stats on Koufax. It was simply to prove that Koufax was great pitching in road stadiums in the biggest games.
Nothing disingenuous or deceiving at all about that because the outstanding stats aren't even remotely debatable that Koufax was great pitching in road stadiums in the biggest games. I repeated the comment to maybe help you comprehend it better.
And my guess is that you selectively missed the posted fact that Koufax won two, count 'em, two WS MVP awards.
If you wish to be a Koufax basher on some other points such as lifetime number of wins, then that's your prerogative, but on the point of Koufax being great in the biggest games on the road, third time repeating it I hope you got it now...this case is closed.
Ya forgot the “And it’s not even debatable” Steve 🤷♂️
I didn't forget it Paul - it's in there.
Have another cup of coffee.
Your right! 🍮
@stevek
I’m still stumping for Whitey Ford. His career is the American League mirror of Sandy Koufax. Almost exactly. Sure, Sandy beats him in strikeouts but Whitey Ford did not have 6 mediocre years to start his career and played longer as well - without too much drop off. Counting the last two injury riddled seasons or not doesn’t matter - he pitched pretty well but not too often.
I don’t have Whitey Ford as the hands down, runaway greatest lefty of all time, mind you, but he was spectacular and often goes overlooked in these discussions. And in my opinion, he’s a worthy candidate and might be THE guy if he reaped the benefit of two additional prime seasons. I say prime because he was pretty dominant even as a rookie, going 9-1 with 7 complete games, 2 shutouts, a save and four other ‘games finished’ in 12 starts and 8 relief appearances; just about every relief appearance was a high leverage one. The next two years had major potential based on how he pitched before and after them. (Same for Feller and others previously mentioned, but I am not championing them.
)
By the way, I’m aware they squared off in ‘63 in a Dodgers sweep, as well. I’m not sure 34 year old Ford versus 27 year old Koufax is really a fair tiebreaker, though. Oddly enough, I think age 27 was actually the best season for each player.
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Whitey Ford led the league in ERA twice, finished 2nd once and third twice. He was top 10 eleven times in 16 seasons.
ERA crowns are impressive - no doubt. Grove had 9 top finishes and had 13 top 10 in 17 seasons.
Noteworthy, though, that Whiteys career ERA is .31 lower.
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I don't see any Koufax bashing going on anywhere.
What I can't argue with is your opinion of picking him as your "one guy to win one big game", Lefty Grove in 1931, Warren Spahn in 1953, Bob Gibson in 1968, Steve Carlton in 1972, Nolan Ryan in 1981, Pedro Martinez in 2000 and I would think a few more would be equally good choices, but Koufax is as good as any. Koufax in 1966 was as good as it gets.
The OP was not about who you would pick to win one game, but left handed GOAT.
He has plenty of great numbers and had a superb run of 5 years, but when you point to those years as proof he was a GOAT candidate, you are going to hear about 1957 to 1961 (I'll ignore 1955-56) where he was just an average pitcher, that is another 5 year run. You can't just ignore the fact that 1/2 his career he was an average pitcher. perhaps above average, but not great.
I am also in the camp that says WS victories are not a very good way of determining GOATs it IS both "disingenuous and deceiving" in that it completely excludes players who didn't play in the post season.
I am in no way "bashing" Koufax, he was a great pitcher with a short career and a terrific 4-5 year peak. I didn't need to look past his 2324 innings pitched to eliminate him from my GOAT list, Not bashing, just comparing positives and negatives.
Nobody is going to get me to knock Whitey Ford, and I know you weren't trying to do that at all. Ford is one of my favorite baseball players of all time.
But the bottom line if I'm a hitter facing either one in their prime, I'd rather face Whitey Ford, in my opinion the least painful execution so to speak - LOL.
You make a number of valid points.
In my view on pitchers, if I'm a manager, who I would select to be the starting pitcher to give my team the best chance to win that one big game, I don't care which stadium it's played in, it would be Sandy Koufax. In my view, a metaphor such as this does exemplify what a GOAT should be.
IE: if I'm putting together an all time greatest team to win that one all time greatest game, Koufax is my starting pitcher, without hesitation.
I realize some may have a different metaphor for the one big game, and a manager wouldn't go wrong with any of the great pitchers that you mentioned.
Serious question - is the jump from 133 to 148 that big of a deal? Seems comparable but I’m not sure if each increment of one represents ‘exponential’ improvement.
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@stevek
Also, apropos of the website, this is my rookie card of my guy. Very similar to the player, the card is both iconic and underrated:
I also love his ‘53 Bowman card but no longer have one. That whole set is beautiful, but I digress.
Like you, I can’t knock Sandy but I can make a case for Whitey.
This is a great thread!
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I read a lot of biographies of baseball players.
Here's a fact or two about Ford you won't see on any stat sheet;
In one of the books (either a Mantle or Berra bio) I read that Casey Stengel would hold Whitey out of "easily winnable" games and match him up against the best opponents best pitcher. This cost him quite a few starts. I don't see much info on his injuries, but he went from the low 30's per year (except for 1955) to the high 30's per year in starts after Casey was let go.
Given a regular spot in the rotation, he probably would have BOTH won more games and had an even higher winning %.
Another interesting (to me anyway) fact about Whitey is that he had begun to lose a bit off his fast ball and he completely changed how he pitched, going from a fastball/curveball pitcher to a guy who could throw several different pitches at several different speeds. That shows an ability to pitch, not just an ability to throw the ball by people.
His ERA was fantastic!
When looking at the GOAT list I just couldn't get past his low innings pitched totals.
I think he would have been great in 1951 and 1952. He got over 100 innings pitched in 1950 and did very well. I am not sure another 400 innings and 36 wins would have put him in the running for GOAT.
If we’re going in depth, Whitey Ford was not really himself in 1953, either. Teammates said he was a little different when he came back and it took him a while to readjust to the majors. Not combat related - he was stateside - but rust. He still had a solid season by all standards but again, that’s his age 22-24 seasons that were impacted. A lower career ERA and 300 wins might change the viewpoint/narrative a bit.
Obviously, ifs and buts are not candy and nuts.
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Whitey Ford not only a great player on the field, but a great guy off the field as well. I can't recall ever reading a negative comment about Whitey Ford.
My sister, husband and nephew thru a mutual family friend with George Steinbrenner, they lived in Florida at the time, in a Yankees spring training game, were invited to sit with Steinbrenner during the game.
Steinbrenner couldn't have been more cordial and focused on talking baseball with my nephew throughout the entire game, as if the game wasn't even going on.
Whitey Ford happened to be there, and sat with them for awhile, having fun talking baseball and gave my nephew an autographed baseball which he signed right there. Tremendous hospitality above and beyond all reasonable expectations by Steinbrenner and Ford.
I'm glad that Whitey is still alive and hope he is doing as well as possible.
In a small world type coincidence, my cousin lives in the same development as Whitey Ford (when she is down in Florida). Understandably, he is a lot quieter and more subdued but still doing pretty good from what I understand and last I heard (6 months ago).
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Since I am way out of my league on this thread, I will not comment on who the greatest pitcher of all time is. I don't want to end up like this guy.....
That's good news.
Sometimes when someone is 90 years old, I'm almost afraid to ask. Especially since Whitey certainly enjoyed going out and about on the town with his pals Mickey and Billy, and the alcohol abundantly flowed.
I recall, and you've probably heard this, Mickey saying tongue in cheek, that If he knew he was going to live this long, he would have taken better care of himself. Mickey passed at 63, Billy at 61, and I'd be sure that Whitey has no complaints that he's made it to 90 and hopefully many years beyond.
Only one stat matters in this discussion, BKBP (birds killed by pitch).
Randy Johnson: 1
Everyone else: 0
End of discussion. Everyone have a pleasant day.
so stevek "closes the case" on my comment but agrees with someone who agrees with me. that is quite weird. I'm not a Koufax basher, I just think an opinion on an entire career should be based on an entire career and not half a career.
Does not look all that out of place so I added Whitey and his ERA+.
Randy Johnson is two above Ford and in the discussion for GOAT but not so for Whitey? Whitey had more complete games and more shutouts than Randy, too, but obviously fewer Ks and Cy Young’s. And around 50 of Randy Johnson’s wins came after age 40 and he was a very average pitcher hanging on at that point and pitching for wins and trading on reputation.
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Koufax won, I don't know how many awards. That is an outstanding career, and in totality in my view is the GOAT regardless of the brevity of his great years.
I think you keep misconstruing my comments, and I'm not going to try and figure it out - LOL
Suffice to say that I respect everyone's opinion on some of the other names mentioned here as GOAT.