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Jeff is representing PWCC
1970s
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I wish them all good luck in this process that could take years in court to sort out. I am not envious of anyone who is paying attorney fees for this fiasco.
I'm sure a few people go to bed at night wishing this never happened.
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I do not feel sorry at all for the people involved as I can only guess how many people were effected by their fraudulent activities.
I am glad the FBI has taken an interest in the fraud perpetrated. It will be interesting to see if some are reluctant to consign with someone that has this cloud hanging over them.
There is another angle that I saw as well on BO. The doctored cards are the focus now but there is another "group" that may get pulled into this.
I didn't realize that it's the same Lichtman that repped El Chapo. What has Brett got himself into to? There has to be more than just selling doctored cards.
One thing that scares me the most is this comment from that article:
While much of the focus has been on vintage cards that have been altered, Lichtman has stated on the Net54 board that he believes the size of the fraud involving current era cards will “dwarf the vintage losses."
The legal representation is obviously the primary purpose/objective, but by having a collector in this role (I understand Jeff is a diehard collector known by other collectors), Brent is also trying to start, what he hopes we will all view as, a rehabilitation. “... we will work to regain your trust” was the last sentence in their last statement. I think his crisis management and PR teams are also behind this...so we shall see.
The truth shall set you free!!
It is my understanding that this attorney - who is a collector and net54 member that often questioned PWCC’s being on the up and up and is now taking the cash to defend PWCC (did you need this attorney? Man, that seems bad on its face) - also defended John Gotti Jr and El Chapo. I couldn’t help thinking...
...that would be some golf foursome, huh?
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
They will do whatever it takes to stay out of prison. I wouldn't be surprised if Brent starts a program to help old ladies across the street. The thought of going to prison will make you do whatever it takes to stay free.
When you hire a lawyer that thinks you’re guilty ... you probably are
People should really look at the Blowout threads. Early on PWCC responds by threatening lawsuits against those who making any statements online against his company. Then after it becomes apparent that his threats are not working and this is starting to get bigger and they are starting to uncover more as people he has hired are well-known in the card industry for fraud he has his wife come on and claim they are "salt of the earth". Only as things get substantially worse does he then change face and go to the "we've made some mistakes, so sorry, please allow us the rectify this" option.
Basically, it's your typical situation where you are only sorry for what you have done simply because you have been caught. I'm just glad this happened before he opened his Fort Knox style card bank where you could store your cards under the watchful safe eye of PWCC!
I am hoping someone from this forum films PWCC's reception at the National. Would be interesting to see how cold it is from the community, especially as word gets out to those who do not use the forums that stuff is not on the up and up...
Are they accepting returns at the National? (They should) Might be a busy place if that is the case. Hope they brought the funds to pay back all the people they ripped off. Disgusting.
Nic
Guides Authored - Graded Card Scanning Guide PDF | History of the PSA Label PDF
FBI ain’t what it use to be
I’d still like to know how all these bad cards made their way into holders.
Exactly....transparency....when the investigstion is complete, we need to know all these details..and the plan...to prevent it from happening again
Everyone makes mistakes, even in our old age. Let’s see if Brent pulls a Felicity Huffman or Jessie Smollett?
Mastro has to admit in open court what he did to get the sweet 20 month deal. I think Brent is preparing with the Fat Lady to sing.
The credibility of TPGs has been severely damaged.
Is Jeff a prosecuting attorney?? Defense attorney?? Both. I'm confused with all the El Chapo, takes down Mastro and represents Brent.... Maybe I know nothing about lawyers??
Only because collectors have some pretty unrealistic expectations.
Let's say you are examining a vintage car, but can only look at it. Don't you think a talented car restorer could do a job so good that the car would pass the "eye test"?
I get it, not the best analogy, BUT the fact remains that TPGs are limited to really just looking at a card. Do they even look at every card under a black light? They can't even determine if a card is the right size by measuring, because vending is cut differently than wax, and OPC apparently cut their sheets with a chain-saw.
Some people have even commented that a "rough-cut" guarantees that a card hasn't been trimmed! DUH, don't you think a "good" trimmer knows that and can replicate it?
How often do we see undoctored cards get an obviously(?) incorrect grade, get resubmitted and get a higher grade? How often do people post pictures of cards that seem graded WAY to high?
TPGs are not here to save or improve the hobby, although I think they have improved it immensely. They are in business to make a profit. They are not going to spend 10 minutes examining your $5.00 card.
They are not perfect and grading is subjective.
I have never soaked a card, but how on earth are you supposed to discover if a card has been soaked in distilled water, or even some kind of solvent by just looking at it?
Would you allow them to dip your Mantle rookie into some kind of liquid to determine if it had been soaked in some kind of chemical?
With the potential of making thousands of dollars by "fixing" a card, you better believe that the people doing it are going to get good at it, and they are NOT going to stop. The best we can hope for is the TPGs can catch some, or most of them, but they won't find them all.
We should all be relieved that Jeff is involved. Despite all of the bad news, Jeff's interest is to protect the hobby. If you read all of his statements, you can see the underlying plan.
PWCC is a big deal in our hobby, but no where near the clientele Lichtman usually hangs with. He looked like a very advanced collector in the CNBC show, he has to be doing this to help the hobby.
Is Jeff a prosecuting attorney?? Defense attorney?? Both. I'm confused with all the El Chapo, takes down Mastro and represents Brent.... Maybe I know nothing about lawyers??
Like expecting cards that are short not to make their way into holders? I don't think that's asking too much at all.
He did not prosecute Bill Mastro, he represented a few collectors that were shill bid in his auctions though. He also suggested a tougher sentence for Doug Allen. He is strictly a defense attorney, probably makes more in an hour than most of do in a week, or month
Doctors, mechanics, veterinarians, etc make mistakes every single day with their diagnoses. That doesn't make us wonder what their value is.
Whatever happens to Brent is separate from the hobby. It looks like Jeff is encouraging all of the parties involved to come clean. That is good for the hobby regardless of what it means from Brent. Like Lichtman pointed out, Mastro destroyed years of records before the FBI could get them.
Sure Jeff's goal is to represent Brent's interest but I would like it done in a way that doesn't hurt the hobby in the long run.
It is interesting that some of his statements seem to infer that there are more dealers/scams involved including modern card patch doctors. If I recall, isn't that group of scams separate from the vintage card doctors? North Carolina based? I remember the first time I saw their work was on the 2001 SP Authentic Vick Patch RC.
Yes, that is true. They could do a better job.
I did address this in my post. Can't you send the card back and get a refund if it's improperly graded?
I have read several posts where people have pulled cards right out of packs (or so they say) and the card comes back too short.
Bottom line is you simply cannot put too much faith in TPGs. How many graders are actually experts? If you want to pay $10-15 per common to have a card graded, they might take more time looking.
No one is going to pay that.
Have you ever worked in production? I'll bet PSA gets a pretty high percentage correct. I occasionally helped out in inspection where I used to work. Have you ever stared at the same stuff for 8 hours at a time? It gets easy to miss things.
I was around before the TPGs came into the hobby. You would have LOVED it when you bought a card out of a magazine, with no photo, described as mint, that was 80-20 off center and had a dinged corner. The TPGs have solved a whole lot more problems than they have created.
No one is perfect. Ever hear the phrase "buy the card, not the holder"?
I will start off by saying I’m not smarter than you. I will attempt to offer an explanation...
The Boston Massacre took place so long ago that most people don’t know what it is - a group of Americans continually verbally and then physically assaulted a British soldier. If what I’ve read is correct, the only thing he did to provoke this was wear his uniform in Boston in 1770. As the colonists threw rocks and snowballs at him, he was aided by 8 soldiers and in his defense, shots were fired and 5 of the soldiers attackers were killed.
What the heck does this have to do with the current situation?
The soldiers (8 infantry, 1 officer) were defended by American Patriot and future President John Adams. As much as he may have applauded the actions of revolt, he also understood that justice trumps all and that he was in a position to demonstrate that the new world he would have a hand in creating was going to be a just one and that meant getting in bed to defend that which he despised.
For a successful attorney (and or a controversial one), the defense of the ‘indefensible’ is the ideal of American law. It is also a great challenge for the attorney; to win a seemingly unwinnable case.
By the way while the public fervor was obviously for 9 hangings, the end result was actually mostly acquittals and a reduced sentence for the others. For a case closely followed in London, as well, it was a great moment for John Adams and the colonies in rebellion. For a few more years, order was restored between the colonies and the crown.
So, for the idealist in me, my guess is that by agreeing to be the defense attorney he wants to ensure that justice does not get lost in the public fervor for convictions and that the scandal is unpacked correctly, that the culpable parties are identified and punished and that the card community is better off and order restored.
I imagine the ideal outcome (for the attorney) looks something like card trimmers prosecuted, card holders refunded and made whole, blame spread around evenly and the ability to avoid any jail sentence and continued operation for the auction house. Lofty goals, if that’s the play, but America was literally built on lofty goals.
Of course, he could also just be in it for the paycheck.
What’s more American that that?
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Of course. It’s all a matter of degree. The analogy to doctors is an apt one. People can accept that a very isolated incidence of physician error is inevitable. However, if a hospital was found to have erred repeatedly and not to have fulfilled the level of care it advertised, that would be a big problem, even if errors occurred in a relatively small percentage of cases.
I agree 100% with what you are saying, it is all a matter of "degree of failure". But it's also a matter of "degree of failure" with respect to not getting any opinion at all. I think we would all be surprised at how often the BEST doctors are making diagnosis based on the best knowledge available, and end up with a wrong diagnosis.
Of course the other aspect of this is whether there is something unscrupulous going on in the case of TPG's, but to me that's a separate argument.
Just a heads up, lawnmowerman's dog got loose. Lookout everybody.
EXACTLY LOLOLOLOL
So what's the consensus here on the future of PSA? Personally, I think they'll lose some customers, but I don't think they'll crumble to the ground. They're too firmly entrenched in the hobby.
This is an area that I prefer not to go. As well, some folks are really pushing the line on being civil. I am going to close this thread. Please remember in the future that disagreement is fine, bashing is not cool and discussion must be kept civil.
Thanks, Todd