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DEJA VU......1861 Clark Gruber $20
ArizonaRareCoins
Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭
After eBay REMOVED his 1861 $20 Clark Gruber for FRAUD, he spit in their face and defiantly re-listed his heavily DOCTORED coin that he purchased at GC last month, cracked it out of it's NGC AU details-scratches holder, filed-down the obverse fields and than artificially toned the coin to hide his work. He is DETERMINED to complete his FRAUD:
https://ebay.com/itm/1861-CLARK-GRUBER-20-Copper-GORGEOUS-UNC-BU-Scarce-Issue-PATTERN-Judd-RARITY/293160436490?hash=item4441b9430a:g:wj0AAOSwmBZdNRuQ
https://greatcollections.com/Coin/710897/1861-20-Clark-Gruber-Copper-Die-Trial-K-12c-NGC-AU-Details
before the DOCTORING:
after the DOCTORING:
0
Comments
Reported....again.
Sad....very sad. The only way to stop this is by prosecution... and likely this would not rise to that level.. though certainly fraud....Cheers, RickO
The coin has been cracked out of a slab and cleaned. I would not call that “fraud”.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
There are bids on it as of this post.
Fraud: "... deceit, trickery; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal .."
Without speaking about this particular listing,.. the seller has lied about where he has obtained some of his coins and has bought numerous problem coins (including one or more that were plugged), removed them from their holders and offered them, without disclosing the problems.
I believe that he is in violation of EBay policy and everyone can decide for themselves whether they think his conduct is also fraudulent.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I do not believe the cleaning is the Fraudulent part... The Obvious artificial toning done to obscure the cleaning does, IMHO, qualify as a fraudulent action. But I am just me...
Poofed
"Found during demolition"
... yeah, demolition of a details slab. I really don't understand how people lie so easily and so often.
Don't be surprised when you see it again on eBay and it's gold plated.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
This situation was NEVER a problem in the old days. Coins as this were sold raw BECAUSE when sent to an Authentication Bureau or Certification Service they were returned as altered coins. That included coins that were repaired, plated, or re-engraved. Over time, "detail grading" got many of these coins into holders.
Intentional omission of a ............................... is fraud.
bob
Of course it was a problem in the old days. This coin was temporarily in a holder, but ended up being offered outside of a holder, just as if it had never been in one in the first place. It would have been a problem, way back when and it’s a problem today, as well.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
These coins are inexpensive enough when they're wholesome - I wonder why anyone would bid on this?
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
You are correct, EVERYTHING CONNECTED w/ buying/selling coins in the old days WAS A PROBLEM! After 1971, Just as today, there were places to help avoid problems of all types.
I think this piece is historical and still made of gold. That should generate several bids. Anyway, this coin is NOT inexpensive to anyone who thinks Cheap Movie Tuesday is still too expensive!
This piece is technically not even a coin (not legal tender nor produced by a government mint)...it is a common copper die trial...many were intentionally defaced so they would not be used in commerce at the time...they are inexpensive when compared to the real coins which were produced in gold...
The Clark Gruber 1861 $20 copper die trial is not a "common" coin.
Heritage has had 20 appearances in a 25-year span - so less than one per year on average. In the same time span, Heritage had six appearances of the (genuine) gold version. But the gold one is, of course, roughly 30 or 40 times the cost of a copper die trial for a typical problem-free EF grade.
I'd like to build a time machine and go back to when the cement head who scratched it did so and give him a good tongue lashing.
The scratches were pretty bad but he ruined it now.
Gorgeous UNC ???
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
Sorry for any confusion..."common" is in quotes because I meant it in a relative fashion...personally I have never seen a die trial for the other territorials that I have: Bechtler, Moffat etc....
AMAZING....After eBay removed this listing for FRAUD, not once, but twice, this guy has just RE-LISTED AGAIN. He is DETERMINED to complete his FRAUD.
https://ebay.com/itm/1861-Clark-and-GRUBER-20-COPPER-Pattern-PieceJUDD-HIGH-GRADE-RB-RAW-COIN-bu-unc/293162845587?hash=item4441de0593:g:KVUAAOSwv-JdN-~o
As inethical as it is....how is this fraud?
Does anyone see the irony of his Ebay user ID? thedockter
He bought the coin in an NGC holder that stated "scratches". He than tooled the scratches and artificially colored the coin to hide the KNOWN issues. He listed the coin without revealing these KNOWN issues. This is the definition of FRAUD. .......see Mark Felds post above on the definition of FRAUD.
Coin was in a details-grade holder, removed from holder and doctored. None of that was disclosed. Seller also lied about where the coin came from. This is not an isolated incident, either.
Fraud:
Dictionary.com › browse › fraud
Fraud | Definition of Fraud at Dictionary.com
Fraud definition, deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage. See more.
Edited to add: another definition of “fraud”:
“...deceit, trickery; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal .."
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree, this is a fraudulent act.
I absolutely don't agree with what the seller is doing(and yes it is fraud in my book). We all know there are 1000's of listings on ebay with coins just like this from probably many sellers that don't know. I guess my inquiry was why does ebay end this one and not all the others?
We, or at least I, report all fraudulant listings to eBay. It may be a bit like playing whack-a-mole, but you have to try. Knowingly and purposely committing fraud is clearly wrong and should always be reported.
Well, thedockter wins again. All he had to do was to wait a month, when the heat died down and he snuck past eBay and sold his docktered coin for $2524:
https://ebay.com/itm/-/293195962833?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true
He says, "Found during demolition!".......yeah, during demolition of the NGC holder.
This was his description. He makes it sound like he is a Dealer. I suppose this must upset the dealers out there. At least he gives a guarantee!!!!!
“
1861 $20 Clark Gruber Copper Appears BU. TONED RED! UNCERTIFIED/RAW COIN. Guaranteed real. Please use photos to determine value. Tone/Color may be due to incorrect storage,,
During the demolition of a 200+ year old pottery store an enormous safe was found (See photos). Most of the contents were junk, but the shop owner was an avid coin collector and hoarded away some of the best pieces that came into the shop, just as his father had done. Many of the coins are dusty and dirty, but I read online not to touch the coins in any way. Therefore, they will be listed exactly as found. Some of the coins were encased years ago, many not. A long-time collector volunteered his time to see that all coins are 100% Authentic guaranteed.
Big Al “