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any thoughts of a grand conspiracy to move the price of silver higher or lower for sustained periods
cohodk
Posts: 18,621 ✭✭✭✭✭
are nothing more than a fantasy offered by delusionary members of the market standing on a soapbox
I have no idea who this guy is but this this a precious metals forum and this dude shares his opinion which i thought might be appreciated.
Excuses are tools of the ignorant
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
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This is the precious metals forum... not a political podium...Please restrict your comments to the topic and leave politics out of commentary. Cheers, RickO
Partisan politics here?
Full context of the statement is in order:
"Don't get me wrong; there is manipulation in the silver market when it comes to short-term spoofing and putting up price prints from time to time. However, any thoughts of a grand conspiracy to move the price of silver higher or lower for sustained periods are nothing more than a fantasy offered by delusionary members of the market standing on a soapbox."
There is either manipulation or there is not manipulation. Guy contradicts himself.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
It's hard to avoid on the PM Forum but it's usually a little more subtle. All the name calling is totally out of bounds.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I suspect that there is manipulation in both directions, but only one side has the ability to manipulate the silver and gold markets with massive naked shorts. Their long term strategy is to injure long side investors with periodic slams at low volume times enough to drive them from the market, thus enabling easier manipulation in the next round. Roadrunner says it best, wash, rinse, repeat.
I knew it would happen.
Affecting the price for a few pennies over a few minutues is not the same as affecting price by 10s of dollars over years, as has been contended on this forum.
Anyway, he seemed to have painted a positive technical picture for silver.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Enron manipulated the electricity market
When you total decades of short term manipulation you profit much more than a few pennies. When you continuously manipulate in the short term for decades you control the long term price.
Doesn't matter how long each short term manipulation lasts. What matters is that is has been going on for a long time having a long time affect on price.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
When you continuously manipulate in the short term for decades you control the long term price.
Except thats not true, which is evidenced in politics, demographics, real estate, religion, electricity markets, ect.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
so if i can control price in the short term, for 10 years of continuous short terms, you're telling me that I had no control on the long term price during that 10 years. You make me laugh.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I wish you continued success.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Not only do I understand how it all works, I completely understand how others are convinced otherwise.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Spoofing anyone?
Good luck!!!!
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I don't believe much of anything I read and not even half of what I see.
The only things I see manipulated are minds.
It might be worth reading or rereading Den of Thieves, which, if my memory serves me, offered a look into the various techniques that Mike Milken employed to engage in short term market manipulation.
In general, short term market manipulation has no meaningful impact on longer term prices. The objective is to pump up trading gains.
And when the same players manipulate over and over in the short term, the long term price is greatly affected. What we have in the silver market is the same players (via futures trading) driving prices down, then buying, then selling when market fundamentals push prices back up. With prices back up they begin the drive back down all over again. Wash, rinse, repeat and profit with each short term cycle.
And this has no affect on long term prices? LOL
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
The spoofing involved both their buy and sell orders.
Intellectual character and conspiracy theory. Great stuff.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Did Milken survey the former market participants to find out how many were shaken out from trading in his markets and never came back because of his short term spoofing? I doubt that he did.
When prospective long investors are financially injured and chased away by the short term antics of the manipulators, it remains that much easier for naked shorting to be effective.
I knew it would happen.
First of all its hard to argue long term investors are harmed when silver and gold are both up 4 fold over the last 15 years. Second, if those investors are scared away, then they are weak and have zero conviction in their beliefs. They were never investors in the first place.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
note the use of the word "prospective"
its hard to argue long term investors are harmed when silver and gold are both up 4 fold over the last 15 years
Firstly, is there any particular reason you pick 2004 as your baseline? Why not 2011?
Secondly, aside from occasional "fat finger" blips in the stock market, we never see the same kind of naked short knockdowns of stocks that we see in gold. In fact, when things get hairy in the stock market, they immediately prohibit short selling altogether. Clearly, the agenda is to distract from the inevitable failure of the debt-based banking and financial system by throwing chum into the stock market.
Lastly, I believe that the salient points would include a study of the expansion of the debt, including unfunded liabilities - from whatever starting date you choose, up to the current date - in relation to the price of gold during that same time period. I would also note the curious fact that most of the massive amounts of free money since 2008 have gone into an asset bubble other than precious metals, i.e. funding of stock buybacks and liquidation of bad banking debt with exactly zero consequences for the architects of the whole 2008 mortgage derivatives mess.
I knew it would happen.
Lol, “shaking” out paper holders is meaningless, all manipulation talk is from those on the losing side of the trades or what you may call long term investors, lol, or insurance holders, even more funnier...
Who said anything about paper holders? As for the long term investors/insurance holders that you are disparaging, I started some serious accumulation in 1998 and I'm quite pleased with how my position has turned out. No biggie.
I knew it would happen.
How can a "prospective" investor be financially harmed? If he is a potential investor then he never owned it in the first place. Or am i putting words into your mouth?
I would like you to show me one, just one, naked short smackdown. Just one, thats all. You conspiracy folk make up stuff to suit your narrative.
Every liability is an unfunded liability, unless its 100% collateralized, and even then kne could argue the value of the underlying. Why do gold bugs get so caught up in that?
If you owned stock then you benefitted handsomely from that "free money". However, if you thought you were smarter than everyone else and bought PMs based on what you thought you know, then today your conviction in manipulatin and conspiracy is even stronger, because you are looking for a scapegoat for why everyone else made money except you.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
OK, instead of "prospective" let's just say "newbie".
The smackdowns have been well-documented here whenever an obvious one occurs. I will put this on my "reminder list" for you.
Since Social Security is no longer a separate account, you got me on the unfunded liability comment. How would you describe the outstanding debt and government programs that exceed the budget and contribute to the budget deficits? Slush money?
So, you don't consider it "free money"? Was it somehow earned by someone? Let me know on that. I'd like to know the thought process.
Smarter than anyone? That's pretty subjective. I don't need a scapegoat when I've built a position in assets that I understand, at reasonable prices. None of that has anything to do with the fact of manipulation in the metals markets, nor is it conspiracy.
I knew it would happen.
Ahh, the supposed manipulation is via a paper contract, if one didnt sell their position at 40+, then its plain and simple, that person(s) made a huge mistake, there is no argument at any level, that’s is what the market actually presented to any taker, silver physical wise is worth $4 an oz, I will only pay what Silver Wheaton pays or lower, immaterial of their up front deals, too many private minters entering the silver market, innumerable ounces available...
Gold & Silver Price Manipulation: The Greatest Trick Ever Pulled
"By siphoning off demand for real gold and silver and channeling it into unbacked or fractionally-backed credits and futures, the central banks and their bullion bank counterparts have done an amazing job in creating an entire market structure of futures and synthetics trading that is unconnected to the physical gold and silver markets. This structure siphons off demand away from the physical precious metals markets, and in doing so, creates a system of price discovery which is nothing to do with physical gold and silver supply and demand."
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
You beat me to it, derryb..
Ahh, the supposed manipulation is via a paper contract, if one didnt sell their position at 40+, then its plain and simple, that person(s) made a huge mistake, there is no argument at any level, that’s is what the market actually presented to any taker, silver physical wise is worth $4 an oz,
I sold a minor portion of my silver @ $35, and I've since bought more than that back. There's no mistake in holding what I consider to be a valuable asset. Go ahead and wait for $4/oz. I don't need to do that. You'll be waiting a very long time.
I knew it would happen.
Very hypothetical. One could argue that ETFs created the newbies that jmski describes. It is both foolish and reckless to assume that one would have bought 10 oz of physical gold instead of 100 shares of GLD.
One could also argue that the ease of buying (and selling) GLD has created more demand than otherwise might be.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I dont believe ive ever commented on the notion of "free money" in any way. Why are you putting words in my mouth? Perhaps i should just keep it shut?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Without the etf’s there’s significantly less demand and they not only provided a huge price number to exit all physical metals but also allowed anyone to make even a greater return via the paper/computer trade at the same time and even better, they also allowed you to make just as big a return going the other way...
ETFs...……. allowed anyone to make even a greater return via the paper/computer trade at the same time and even better, they also allowed you to make just as big a return going the other way...
Exactly. That's why owning physical is a kind of insurance against doing something in a rash and stupid way. You have to go through the exercise of negotiating price and shipping the stuff in order to sell it. That gives plenty of opportunity for forethought.
ETFs = bad mojo (excellent way for the little guy to get scalped in a hurry.)
Without the etf’s there’s significantly less demand and they not only provided a huge price number to exit all physical metals
Not so sure that I agree with this at all. I think that they are two separate markets with two mostly different clientele, except maybe for derryb.
I knew it would happen.
ETFs create artificial supply.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Please explain as the money that goes into ETFs is used to buy physical metals.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Very, very few PM ETFs claim to be backed by physical metal. Most are derivatives or index based. There are legitimate questions on those that do claim to have the backing.
As with any paper promise when it comes to precious metals, supply is limited only by imagination.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
The last time I read an ETF prospectus, it was very opaque as to who owned what and where that what was actually kept.
I knew it would happen.
https://www.ishares.com/us/library/stream-document?stream=reg&product=I-SLV&shareClass=NA&documentId=925420&iframeUrlOverride=/us/literature/prospectus/p-ishares-silver-trust-prospectus-12-31.pdf
In case anyone needed some bedtime reading
GLD and SLV are but two of many, many PM related ETFs.
and
there's even more when you look at "leveraged" ETFs
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
The largest etfs GLD and SLV are backed by physical metals and you darn well know that.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I correctly pointed out that most PM related ETFs are not backed by physical metals. Don't you hate it when I'm right?
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Haha...many of us are waiting for you to be right. Several have even died in this wait.
You know full well that the ETFs backed by bullion have only increased the demand for metals, rather than taken it away. Thats the reason why you deflected the conversation to paper backed leveraged ETFs..
I do find it interesting that you berate rawteam1 for "not knowing when to sell", when you are on record on this very forum for touting your monster box purchases in the mid $20's.
Yes, we do eagerly await your being right. If only you were warned. Lol
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I guess that's a "yes." LOL
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Lol, he didn’t berate me, he just tried to use me as a cover for himself, comprehension challenges are rough stuff...
Reading that prospectus, there is ample lack of responsibility, no clear indication of who owns the silver, multiple layers of involvement by multiple parties, and international law between the silver and the investor. Good luck if there's ever a problem or breakdown in the chain.
I knew it would happen.
Has anyone ever seen a prospectus for gold or silver bullion?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
lol, that's pretty funny.
I knew it would happen.
No, but If anyone has a picture of derryb (the walking gold and silver bullion prospectus) that would suffice...
Yeah....i guess you're right. Absolutely no risk with bullion.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear