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  • ndleondleo Posts: 3,416 ✭✭✭✭

    Someone mentioned that the Feds take a long time to get involved. Looks like time moved very fast. I think the work done by the Blowout guys already set-up the case.

    Mike
  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 7,275 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This whole mess is just sad. It's sad for the people who have been duped. It's sad for the hobby.

    Hello, I'm a Joe Louis card addict.

  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Posts: 326 ✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019 11:45AM

    Fraud is rampant in the hobby. From the ground level all the way to the top. Thankfully, Blowout has worked diligently to expose many of these bad business practices. Hopefully, with the FBI stepping in to tackle this we see a nice take down of the fraudulent activity so people finally realize there are consequences for their actions. Be it from the corporate level with all the companies we know all so well down to the individuals who trim and sell counterfeit cards and tampered packs.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 4,150 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ^^^^ it really is sad for the hobby.

  • ndleondleo Posts: 3,416 ✭✭✭✭

    They need to out these cards in order to keep the faith in the market. The good thing for our hobby is that they are a lot of rich guys that collect and can afford chase this rabbit. If I recall the main guy that broke Mastro was a wealthy defense attorney.

    Mike
  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 3,614 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ecstatic to see this gaining serious traction; the WP article appeared at the very top of my personalized google page when i checked it earlier today.

    my sincere wish is for every complicit and downright incompetent party to absorb a flogging they'll never forget. all wrist-slapping does is allow the status quo to continue unabated

  • AFLfanAFLfan Posts: 607 mod

    I've said it before and I will say it again... Steve Sloan and PSA have been working on this situation since it first came to light. Things like this take time, but progress is being made. Also understand that there is likely no one that regularly participates on this forum that knows all of the details of the situation. Please allow those that do have that information to do their jobs.

    Todd Tobias
    PSA Employee & Grateful Collector
    I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and vintage lacrosse cards.
  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ArtVandelay said:
    Fraud is rampant in the hobby. From the ground level all the way to the top. Thankfully, Blowout has worked diligently to expose many of these bad business practices. Hopefully, with the FBI stepping in to tackle this we see a nice take down of the fraudulent activity so people finally realize there are consequences for their actions. Be it from the corporate level with all the companies we know all so well down to the individuals who trim and sell counterfeit cards and tampered packs.

    To your last sentence a question.Has there been any incidents/evidence of graded tampered/repaired/restored/conserved packs,vintage or otherwise?

    Successful transactions:Tookybandit
  • AFLfanAFLfan Posts: 607 mod

    Season6... Thank you for your reply. I have essentially made the same statement as I posted above several times over the last couple of months, and I stand by it again. I don't care to get into an involved discussion about the situation, but I will say the following...

    Is PSA perfect? No. We are human and make mistakes as does everyone else that I have ever encountered. You stated that "even if I (or PSA) can't identify those things 5% of the time, my (or PSA's) opinion still has no value, because those error rates cause doubt about all conclusions of all opinions."

    First of all, the cards that have been called into question (and may continue to be for a time), come nowhere close to representing even 1% of the cards that we have graded over the years. I am no mathematician (B.A. & M.A. in history, sorry), but I think that people would be surprised at the shockingly low percentage of our total graded cards that are caught up in this situation. Again, yes, there is a problem and we are working to make corrections, but I do not believe it is as wide-spread as is being perceived by others.

    I know a bit about the situation in its entirety, but certainly not everything. It is very complex. I will just leave it there. But to simply state that PSA missed on cards without taking anything else into account is rather short-sighted.

    Collectors will certainly be free to make their own interpretations to the value that PSA might or might not add to their collections in the future, just as they have been to this point. I can understand that collectors would have questions. However, any good company that cares about their customers and the hobby in general would also use this as a learning opportunity and make improvements on their practices based on their experiences. That is exactly what is being done. The first step in the process is the new, free Secure Scan element that has been added to some of the higher submission levels. The plan is to be able to eventually apply it at all levels, but that has to be balanced against turnaround times to make sure that we do not further lengthen the times that submissions stay in-house. I am not at liberty yet to comment on other changes, but suffice to say that things are being done.

    It is unfortunate that these things take time. I am sure that Steve Sloan and others would love to be able to make statements immediately as issues arise, but we all know what happens when things are said without first taking the time to completely understand a situation. No one wants to have to go back and make modifications because statements were made prematurely.

    I have known Steve Sloan for 20 years, and I have been involved in this hobby for 40. As you can imagine, both are important to me. Steve as a friend and boss, and the hobby as something that has brought me immeasurable joy over the years. I also know that Steve cares deeply about the hobby because we have been talking cards since well before either of us had ever considered working for PSA. Things are being done to take care of the situation and make improvements going forward. Please do not misinterpret a lack of loud and damning statements from PSA for indifference as long as submissions continue to come in. That would be patently false.

    Todd Tobias
    PSA Employee & Grateful Collector
    I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and vintage lacrosse cards.
  • HighGradeLegendsHighGradeLegends Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭✭

    @Season6 said:
    AFLfan, I feel compelled to comment on your replies. I understand you work for PSA and you are required to respond and defend PSA and its actions, or compelled to do so out of loyalty. I get that. But look at this situation from a complete hobbyists perspective and not a corporate one, and certainly not a wishful thinking one.

    PSA's role in the hobby is to provide assurance. People buy, people sell, and PSA sits in the middle and provides assurance to the buyer that what they think they are purchasing is, in fact, what they are purchasing. I've been in the assurance industry for 25 years. If I (or PSA) cannot accurately identify right from wrong, legitimate from illegitimate, altered from unaltered, then my (or PSA's) opinion is of absolutely no value. And even if I (or PSA) can't identify those things 5% of the time, my (or PSA's) opinion still has no value, because those error rates cause doubt about all conclusions of all opinions. This is the fundamental problem that PSA is facing right now. There are a whole heap of altered cards out there in PSA slabs. Which means PSA failed in its role.

    You note that "Steve Sloan and PSA have been working on this situation since it first came to light." Working on this situation? Unless you are working on a time machine to go back and shore up your processes to avoid this mess in the first place, I'm not sure what this statement means other than empty deflection of criticism. It's not about what you are doing now or even if you make efforts to make collectors whole (although I'm sure the hobby would greatly appreciate that). The fundamental question is whether PSA provides value in the hobby if their processes can allow these mistakes in the first place (que outrage from the apologists). And I'm not currently sure how you can answer that question sufficiently. Of course everyone will have their own opinion on this matter, and their seem to be numerous big collectors who will support you either way, possibly because realizing/accepting your limitations would invalidate their own expensive collections built on the whole concept of PSA's value/premium...an unpalatable thought to be sure, so these people will keep the faith either way.

    You say that "there is likely no one that regularly participates on this forum that knows all of the details of the situation." What do we need to know other than the fact that there are all sorts of high profile altered cards in PSA slabs that PSA didn't identify? Is there anything else to know? Please, allay my concerns because this doesn't seem particularly complicated to me (PSA's role).

    Your post also says "Please allow those that do have that information to do their jobs." First, no one is preventing anyone from doing their jobs. Chatter from collectors doesn't interfere with anything, so that statement is inappropriate and, again, seems overly defensive. Second of all, do you, or PSA, seriously believe you deserve the benefit of the doubt in this situation? Let's clearly understand PSA's role in this situation. PSA is the assurance provider in the industry. PSA failed to identify a large number of high profile cards which were altered, and you've put your (incorrect) stamp of approval on these cards. That was PSA's role. And PSA failed in that role. Period. There's no other way to look at this situation. I find it concerning (although not surprising) that PSA's communications seem to want to angle or frame the situation as if they are an innocent bystander that is trying to add value and help the hobby. The reality is PSA has already failed, and if their value to the hobby isn't being seriously questioned by collectors, those collectors don't understand assurance, or don't want to. Arthur Andersen made mistakes and disappeared very quickly. At one point they were the most respected name in their business. They made mistakes, lost trust, and were gone (an oversimplification, I understand, with many dissimilarities).

    So I'll say as respectfully as I can, I appreciate your role in this and understand some of its complexity. I understand PSA's role in the hobby and hope it can somehow reclaim and restore trust. But the reality is, I don't see PSA's role in this situation as particularly complicated. I find the silence concerning. Doubt is dangerous in assurance. It is worse than dangerous. And right now, all I currently have is doubt about PSA's role in the hobby, given this situation.

    Yes this is my first post. I have collected for decades and keep my collection private for my own reasons. Those facts don't invalidate my concerns or opinions.

    Welcome to the forum

  • 80sOPC80sOPC Posts: 561 ✭✭✭

    Yes, cello packs with stars on top were being built and getting graded a few years back. Still lots of these bad packs out there.

    @BLUEJAYWAY said:

    @ArtVandelay said:
    Fraud is rampant in the hobby. From the ground level all the way to the top. Thankfully, Blowout has worked diligently to expose many of these bad business practices. Hopefully, with the FBI stepping in to tackle this we see a nice take down of the fraudulent activity so people finally realize there are consequences for their actions. Be it from the corporate level with all the companies we know all so well down to the individuals who trim and sell counterfeit cards and tampered packs.

    To your last sentence a question.Has there been any incidents/evidence of graded tampered/repaired/restored/conserved packs,vintage or otherwise?

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 7,275 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @HighGradeLegends said:

    @Season6 said:
    AFLfan, I feel compelled to comment on your replies. I understand you work for PSA and you are required to respond and defend PSA and its actions, or compelled to do so out of loyalty. I get that. But look at this situation from a complete hobbyists perspective and not a corporate one, and certainly not a wishful thinking one.

    PSA's role in the hobby is to provide assurance. People buy, people sell, and PSA sits in the middle and provides assurance to the buyer that what they think they are purchasing is, in fact, what they are purchasing. I've been in the assurance industry for 25 years. If I (or PSA) cannot accurately identify right from wrong, legitimate from illegitimate, altered from unaltered, then my (or PSA's) opinion is of absolutely no value. And even if I (or PSA) can't identify those things 5% of the time, my (or PSA's) opinion still has no value, because those error rates cause doubt about all conclusions of all opinions. This is the fundamental problem that PSA is facing right now. There are a whole heap of altered cards out there in PSA slabs. Which means PSA failed in its role.

    You note that "Steve Sloan and PSA have been working on this situation since it first came to light." Working on this situation? Unless you are working on a time machine to go back and shore up your processes to avoid this mess in the first place, I'm not sure what this statement means other than empty deflection of criticism. It's not about what you are doing now or even if you make efforts to make collectors whole (although I'm sure the hobby would greatly appreciate that). The fundamental question is whether PSA provides value in the hobby if their processes can allow these mistakes in the first place (que outrage from the apologists). And I'm not currently sure how you can answer that question sufficiently. Of course everyone will have their own opinion on this matter, and their seem to be numerous big collectors who will support you either way, possibly because realizing/accepting your limitations would invalidate their own expensive collections built on the whole concept of PSA's value/premium...an unpalatable thought to be sure, so these people will keep the faith either way.

    You say that "there is likely no one that regularly participates on this forum that knows all of the details of the situation." What do we need to know other than the fact that there are all sorts of high profile altered cards in PSA slabs that PSA didn't identify? Is there anything else to know? Please, allay my concerns because this doesn't seem particularly complicated to me (PSA's role).

    Your post also says "Please allow those that do have that information to do their jobs." First, no one is preventing anyone from doing their jobs. Chatter from collectors doesn't interfere with anything, so that statement is inappropriate and, again, seems overly defensive. Second of all, do you, or PSA, seriously believe you deserve the benefit of the doubt in this situation? Let's clearly understand PSA's role in this situation. PSA is the assurance provider in the industry. PSA failed to identify a large number of high profile cards which were altered, and you've put your (incorrect) stamp of approval on these cards. That was PSA's role. And PSA failed in that role. Period. There's no other way to look at this situation. I find it concerning (although not surprising) that PSA's communications seem to want to angle or frame the situation as if they are an innocent bystander that is trying to add value and help the hobby. The reality is PSA has already failed, and if their value to the hobby isn't being seriously questioned by collectors, those collectors don't understand assurance, or don't want to. Arthur Andersen made mistakes and disappeared very quickly. At one point they were the most respected name in their business. They made mistakes, lost trust, and were gone (an oversimplification, I understand, with many dissimilarities).

    So I'll say as respectfully as I can, I appreciate your role in this and understand some of its complexity. I understand PSA's role in the hobby and hope it can somehow reclaim and restore trust. But the reality is, I don't see PSA's role in this situation as particularly complicated. I find the silence concerning. Doubt is dangerous in assurance. It is worse than dangerous. And right now, all I currently have is doubt about PSA's role in the hobby, given this situation.

    Yes this is my first post. I have collected for decades and keep my collection private for my own reasons. Those facts don't invalidate my concerns or opinions.

    Welcome to the forum

    A welcome 8 years in the making. That's gotta be a forum record.

    Hello, I'm a Joe Louis card addict.

  • LGCLGC Posts: 182 ✭✭✭

    @AFLfan said:

    It is unfortunate that these things take time...Things are being done to take care of the situation and make improvements going forward. Please do not misinterpret a lack of loud and damning statements from PSA for indifference as long as submissions continue to come in. That would be patently false.

    Thank you AFLfan. One of my concerns has to do with “the things that are being done to take care of the situation”; i.e., the process. I am concerned that PSA will conduct an internal investigation without input from and discussion with all stakeholders, specifically, the collector/hobbyist. A most recent example of what not to do is PWCC’s development and finalization of the “Tenets”, which clearly lacked an exposure/feedback/deliberation/revision process loop. Look at how well that final product was received!

    While I understand the need for a comprehensive and measured approach to address these matters (again, look at how hastily PWCC threw their Tenets out there), informing your base about the process will help PSA to manage expectations; for example, should PSA use a focus group of stakeholders. If that has been decided, then disclosure of that would be informative. While I am suggesting a specific action to be part of the investigation, perhaps the more important thing is for some disclosure about the process itself.

    Thanks

  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 23,916 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019 3:53PM

    The fundamental question is whether PSA provides value in the hobby if their processes can allow these mistakes in the first place (que outrage from the apologists). And I'm not currently sure how you can answer that question sufficiently. Of course everyone will have their own opinion on this matter, and their seem to be numerous big collectors who will support you either way, possibly because realizing/accepting your limitations would invalidate their own expensive collections built on the whole concept of PSA's value/premium...an unpalatable thought to be sure, so these people will keep the faith either way.

    While I agree with having a dialogue on what is a serious situation?

    Don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining. IMO, this is a veiled insult.

    Mike



  • brad31brad31 Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Still believe the only thing we have the power to do is no longer buy from PWCC. Hope many exercise this power. I believe PSA made honest mistakes in grading altered cards. I do not believe PWCC thought these cards were unaltered when they were selling them.

  • MLBdaysMLBdays Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @brad31....it depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is....

  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Posts: 326 ✭✭✭

    @BLUEJAYWAY said:

    @ArtVandelay said:
    Fraud is rampant in the hobby. From the ground level all the way to the top. Thankfully, Blowout has worked diligently to expose many of these bad business practices. Hopefully, with the FBI stepping in to tackle this we see a nice take down of the fraudulent activity so people finally realize there are consequences for their actions. Be it from the corporate level with all the companies we know all so well down to the individuals who trim and sell counterfeit cards and tampered packs.

    To your last sentence a question.Has there been any incidents/evidence of graded tampered/repaired/restored/conserved packs, vintage or otherwise?

    I was mainly pointing out the packs that are for sale all over eBay. Not necessarily graded. I see the same 7 to 10 seller selling obviously tampered packs and getting away with it. I'm sure just about everyone on this board is aware of these people. But, with that said, I think many of us have seen packs opened on youtube videos that don't follow a certain known sequence. I do not think there has been an emphasis (yet) on focusing on this side of the industry. It would be rather interesting.

  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Posts: 326 ✭✭✭

    @AFLfan said:
    I've said it before and I will say it again... Steve Sloan and PSA have been working on this situation since it first came to light. Things like this take time, but progress is being made. Also understand that there is likely no one that regularly participates on this forum that knows all of the details of the situation. Please allow those that do have that information to do their jobs.

    First off, I want to state how much I appreciate you as a moderator of this board. You are friendly and have shown the ability to allow constructive conversation that previously would have been pulled quickly off the boards by previous moderators. It is greatly appreciated and hope you continue the great work.

    However, I do want to point something out that you mentioned in this. You mentioned that people on the board most likely did not have all the details and that we should allow those in the know to do their jobs. While I do understand where you are coming from it should be pointed out that the information that caused this firestorm and is responsible for casting a wide eye on the fraudulent activity in the hobby came from.....a person on a message board. It should also be mentioned that not always do those in the know have anything but their own personal interests in mind. Without people like that individuals on Blowout that stepped out with an amazing amount of evidence the status quo would have continued. Consumer confidence is everything in commodities. And we are definitely dealing with a commodity here that balances on whether they feel confident in the product they are purchasing.

  • AFLfanAFLfan Posts: 607 mod
    edited July 18, 2019 7:25PM

    Thank you for the kind words. We won't always agree on things, but if our discussions remain civil, then I believe that is what matters most. I am a collector as well and certainly understand the frustration the situation has brought about.

    I can see where you are coming from with this point. However, I would counter that I am not trying to suppress the forum in this instance, but rather saying that now that the situation is out front, allow the process to take it's course. I am commenting not so much to the people discovering new elements of the situation, but those expecting/demanding immediate action out of PSA. Information needs to be gathered, facts checked and double-checked, etc. I think that we have all made rash comments or taken immediate action at some point that we have later regretted after new information was brought to light. I believe that it is in everyone's best interests for that not to happen here.

    Todd Tobias
    PSA Employee & Grateful Collector
    I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and vintage lacrosse cards.
  • SdubSdub Posts: 741 ✭✭✭

    @brad31 said:
    Still believe the only thing we have the power to do is no longer buy from PWCC. Hope many exercise this power. I believe PSA made honest mistakes in grading altered cards. I do not believe PWCC thought these cards were unaltered when they were selling them.

    PWCC has 95% of the cards I want. What's the alternative, AH's where they admit shilling in their terms? no thanks. I'll stick with landmines I know and can see.

    Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83.
    Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
    Prefer to buy in bulk.
  • yankeeno7yankeeno7 Posts: 9,156 ✭✭✭

    @80sOPC said:
    Yes, cello packs with stars on top were being built and getting graded a few years back. Still lots of these bad packs out there.

    @BLUEJAYWAY said:

    @ArtVandelay said:
    Fraud is rampant in the hobby. From the ground level all the way to the top. Thankfully, Blowout has worked diligently to expose many of these bad business practices. Hopefully, with the FBI stepping in to tackle this we see a nice take down of the fraudulent activity so people finally realize there are consequences for their actions. Be it from the corporate level with all the companies we know all so well down to the individuals who trim and sell counterfeit cards and tampered packs.

    To your last sentence a question.Has there been any incidents/evidence of graded tampered/repaired/restored/conserved packs,vintage or otherwise?

    The guy who did it was very open about it on Net54 after he was caught. I believe his name was Jose? I wish I could remember his name. But he had many high end stars on top that were authenticated and slabbed.

    Please don't shoot the messenger...this is for informative purposes only :D

    Some people are like slinkies..Not really good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when you push one down a flight of stairs.

    yup
  • ndleondleo Posts: 3,416 ✭✭✭✭

    WIWAG for the old timers here.

    Mike
  • brad31brad31 Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Sdub said:

    @brad31 said:
    Still believe the only thing we have the power to do is no longer buy from PWCC. Hope many exercise this power. I believe PSA made honest mistakes in grading altered cards. I do not believe PWCC thought these cards were unaltered when they were selling them.

    PWCC has 95% of the cards I want. What's the alternative, AH's where they admit shilling in their terms? no thanks. I'll stick with landmines I know and can see.

    We all make our own choices. If shilling is your concern I encourage you to read the email exchange on the other forums between Brent and the owner of the ‘48 Leaf DiMaggio.

  • flatfoot816flatfoot816 Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭

    back to the OP's initial point in this thread--that the Washington Post is now reporting this. This should be a concern to all parties involved. Once the press starts the roll call--it puts a lot of pressure on law enforcement to do something. The FBI would never jump the gun so to speak--but it is pressure none the less. From a former cop's standpoint and an attorney's too--it usually behooves all parties involved to 1st of all fully cooperate, and 2nd -- reach a resolution with those buyers of bad cards immediately.

  • ndleondleo Posts: 3,416 ✭✭✭✭

    someone in the great Northwest recently googled "Tom Brady cellphone"

    Mike
  • VintagemanEdVintagemanEd Posts: 874 ✭✭✭

    When are we getting a full list of the cards involved?

  • HighGradeLegendsHighGradeLegends Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭✭

    @drc said:

    @flatfoot816 said:
    back to the OP's initial point in this thread--that the Washington Post is now reporting this. This should be a concern to all parties involved. Once the press starts the roll call--it puts a lot of pressure on law enforcement to do something. The FBI would never jump the gun so to speak--but it is pressure none the less. From a former cop's standpoint and an attorney's too--it usually behooves all parties involved to 1st of all fully cooperate, and 2nd -- reach a resolution with those buyers of bad cards immediately.

    Moser and PWCC have to be sweating bullets at this time.

    This

  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Posts: 326 ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019 6:48PM

    I'm sure right now they are trying to convince the FBI that they are "Salt of the Earth"

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 4,150 ✭✭✭✭✭

    has anyone heard if PWCC still is planning to attend the national?

  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Posts: 326 ✭✭✭

    I was curious about that as well. I'm also curious to see if all those Dallas/Fort Worth dealers will show their faces as well?

  • ndleondleo Posts: 3,416 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    has anyone heard if PWCC still is planning to attend the national?

    I expect all of the characters in this sad saga to show up. How else are they going to record and rat on each other?

    Mike
  • SdubSdub Posts: 741 ✭✭✭

    @brad31 said:

    @Sdub said:

    @brad31 said:
    Still believe the only thing we have the power to do is no longer buy from PWCC. Hope many exercise this power. I believe PSA made honest mistakes in grading altered cards. I do not believe PWCC thought these cards were unaltered when they were selling them.

    PWCC has 95% of the cards I want. What's the alternative, AH's where they admit shilling in their terms? no thanks. I'll stick with landmines I know and can see.

    We all make our own choices. If shilling is your concern I encourage you to read the email exchange on the other forums between Brent and the owner of the ‘48 Leaf DiMaggio.

    Exactly my point. Shilling is rampent across all auction platforms, including e-bay and auction houses. Snipe your bid, then go to bed. Assume everything you bid on will be shilled. And now, assume any vintage card may have been altered.

    Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83.
    Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
    Prefer to buy in bulk.
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 7,779 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2019 11:49PM

    This is my first post to the sports card forums (I come from the coin forums), but there are a number of parallels between the certified sports card industry and certified U.S. coin market. My hobby is similarly filled with rampant fraud and alteration of collectibles, much of which has escaped detection by coin grading services, not to mention inconsistency in grading leading to "grade inflation" over time; thus, I am interested in how this plays out. I have a few questions that I hope many of you will indulge:

    1. What effect has this had short term on the sports card industry including pricing and the market structure for collectible sports cards?
    2. What effects do you think this will have long term?
    3. In my hobby distrust is rampant and there is now a fourth party grading service that affixes a sticker to "grade the graders" and this company also acts as a market maker. Would a similar company help with sports cards?
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 7,779 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2019 11:47PM

    @Season6 said:
    It's not about... if you make efforts to make collectors whole (although I'm sure the hobby would greatly appreciate that).

    Wouldn't that ensure consumer confidence or at least ensure market stability? Isn't that the purpose of collectible certification and grading companies? No one is perfect.

  • DotStoreDotStore Posts: 434 ✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:
    3. In my hobby distrust is rampant and there is now a fourth party grading service that affixes a sticker to "grade the graders" and this company also acts as a market maker. Would a similar company help with sports cards?

    Welcome to the Sportscard forum. I also came over here from the Coin Forum - I collect both. Regarding your Question #3, they do have the "Sticker" folks already. PWCC as a consignor on eBay (they are also involved in the ongoing investigations) adds their own opinion with varying degrees of "Eye Appeal" by affixing a hologram to the slab to represent:
    1. Above Average (top 30%)
    2. Exceptional (top 15%)
    3. Superior (top 5%)

    There's also another "Sticker" company called "Purple Label" -- I think they are running some promotion at the National Convention this year, but I don't know much about them...

  • brad31brad31 Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I cannot understand how stickers would work. If someone cannot examine the card outside of the slab their ability to find alterations would be limited.

  • SpinFadeSplash23SpinFadeSplash23 Posts: 858 ✭✭✭

    When in doubt, buy puts.

    Joe

    We had this janitor named Mr. Larry. He was held back so many times, they just made him a janitor. His trick was to come in while you're at the urinal and pee over you.
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 7,779 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @brad31 said:
    I cannot understand how stickers would work. If someone cannot examine the card outside of the slab their ability to find alterations would be limited.

    The same problem exists with the coin version. I have long thought the same thing about the coin analog especially with regards to a coin's edge. The sticker service in our hobby has caught on like wildfire though.

    Thanks to all of you for responding to my post.

  • SpinFadeSplash23SpinFadeSplash23 Posts: 858 ✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019 2:42PM

    The Net54 forum has some interesting posts by the attorney repping PWCC.

    Joe

    We had this janitor named Mr. Larry. He was held back so many times, they just made him a janitor. His trick was to come in while you're at the urinal and pee over you.
  • Huskies11Huskies11 Posts: 312 ✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019 3:52PM

    I have been only tangentially following this scandal but finally had some time to read the Blowout forums post. Holy cow. I truly underestimated just how many cards seem to have been involved. What's shocking to me as well is how many non high-end cards were altered. I had assumed they were only doing this to a few high end cards. Glad we have some talented PIs in our hobby to counteract the scumbags that are sadly in our hobby as well.

    Currently Collecting:

    • Baseball: Griffey Jr, Red Sox, 80s/90s/00s
    • Basketball: Jordan, Bird, 80s/90s
    • Football: Tom Brady, Randy Moss, Patriots
    • Hockey: Gretzky, Buffalo Sabres

    Flickr: https://flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/686763

  • demondeacsdemondeacs Posts: 77 ✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @brad31 said:
    I cannot understand how stickers would work. If someone cannot examine the card outside of the slab their ability to find alterations would be limited.

    The same problem exists with the coin version. I have long thought the same thing about the coin analog especially with regards to a coin's edge. The sticker service in our hobby has caught on like wildfire though.

    Thanks to all of you for responding to my post.

    Since vintage packs, vending boxes, etc are still being opened--and PSA authenticates unopened material--I think the best guarantee would be something on the PSA flip indicating the card was opened in their presence.

    They've done that before, but I think they should do it more and maybe even boost those cards in the registry a point or so.

This discussion has been closed.