"And the cards they sold were graded by an appraisal firm that charges customers based on the grades they give their cards rather than a flat-fee, thus incentivizing them to give higher, possibly inaccurate grades."
And now I know why. Every card I've submitted has been charged a flat fee. No upcharges, ever. The people I know who've had them only received them on a tiny amount of their raw submissions. Hardly a big source of revenue and not relevant to the other issues that have affected every tpg since the beginning.
IMO a mixture of what actually happened in 2016 and a lot of loose speculation, unsupported hyperbole and some utter nonsense about the current allegations.
No one should be so naive to think that there arent altered cards that have found their way into slabs. TPG services require imperfect humans so there is no way it will ever be 100%.
On the other hand, ~500 cards being identified as being suspicious over on BO forums doesn’t quite make this a sky-is-falling event that lead to executive stock dumping, a largely “bogus” market or many of the sensationalized possibilities and fantasies that the author suggested in the article.
We should all be concerned about the allegations. What has been disseminated so far paints a very troubling picture that all stakeholders would be unwise to simply dismiss. There’s a lot more needed to turn allegations into factually based accusations. And so far there isn’t very much factual information at all to fairly try and quantify the scale if the allegations turn out to be shown to be accurate. Anyone who claims otherwise is expressing opinions not facts.
This one is going to take a while to figure out and it’s going to undermine confidence while people have to wait for the answers. But getting something this complicated correct is critical. There are so many innocent stakeholders who could be adversely impacted if it is not dealt with intelligently and with focus on both the specific allegations and the big picture.
And if I were to make any suggestion to PSA about this it would be to be very careful about what goes into your public statements about this situation in an environment where many will seize upon specific words you use, or don’t use, and try to characterize the “tone” of what you said in order to further whatever their personal agendas may be. That doesn’t mean to suggest going silent. Transparency and regular updates are important confidence rebuilders that are desperately needed. Just suggesting that you review the statements a bit more and look for places where something can be read in that you did not intend to say.
Hoping for the best interests of the hobby and the majority of its stakeholders to be prioritized and protected by all involved.
I agree the sky isn’t falling but those 500 cards are ONLY cards that were sold by PWCC, bought by Moser and then resold by PWCC.
Anything bought raw is out of scope. Bought private, out of scope. Anything sold private, out of scope. Most AH sales, out of scope. Other card doctors, unknown.
And those cards don’t include all the trimmed modern cards that are known. Some of them monster 100k+ cards.
I have no idea how big this thing is but a few posters on Blowout finding 500 cards is not indicative of a small event, quite the opposite. Those cards most likely represent a fraction of the overall impact.
Also, lets drop the canard that those cards are just allegations. These are 100% factually based accusations. These guys have proven chain of custody and can pin point the exact alteration. I struggle to understand how someone can read most of those card posts and think that there isn’t definitive proof. PWCC has hired a stud criminal defence lawyer and is in the process of refunding 100s of thousands of dollars on cards found on those threads. If the proof found is good enough for them to write a 30k check for the Maris, and 10k for the Dryden, its good enough for me.
I agree completely with your last paragraphs. As someone all in on the hobby my biggest concern is the scandals appear to be getting bigger. If this one gets swept away, I’d expect the next scandal to be multiple sizes larger. At some point the hobby will eat itself.
IMO a mixture of what actually happened in 2016 and a lot of loose speculation, unsupported hyperbole and some utter nonsense about the current allegations.
No one should be so naive to think that there arent altered cards that have found their way into slabs. TPG services require imperfect humans so there is no way it will ever be 100%.
On the other hand, ~500 cards being identified as being suspicious over on BO forums doesn’t quite make this a sky-is-falling event that lead to executive stock dumping, a largely “bogus” market or many of the sensationalized possibilities and fantasies that the author suggested in the article.
We should all be concerned about the allegations. What has been disseminated so far paints a very troubling picture that all stakeholders would be unwise to simply dismiss. There’s a lot more needed to turn allegations into factually based accusations. And so far there isn’t very much factual information at all to fairly try and quantify the scale if the allegations turn out to be shown to be accurate. Anyone who claims otherwise is expressing opinions not facts.
This one is going to take a while to figure out and it’s going to undermine confidence while people have to wait for the answers. But getting something this complicated correct is critical. There are so many innocent stakeholders who could be adversely impacted if it is not dealt with intelligently and with focus on both the specific allegations and the big picture.
And if I were to make any suggestion to PSA about this it would be to be very careful about what goes into your public statements about this situation in an environment where many will seize upon specific words you use, or don’t use, and try to characterize the “tone” of what you said in order to further whatever their personal agendas may be. That doesn’t mean to suggest going silent. Transparency and regular updates are important confidence rebuilders that are desperately needed. Just suggesting that you review the statements a bit more and look for places where something can be read in that you did not intend to say.
Hoping for the best interests of the hobby and the majority of its stakeholders to be prioritized and protected by all involved.
"This is a crisis. There's just too much upside to being unethical in this industry. ... This is bad. This is really bad."
This is the 200+ year problem with capitalism. With Capitalism right and wrong almost always get tossed out the window in favor of which one is more profitable.
@MLBdays said: @Dpeck100 ...interesting fake news... that kind of inaccuracy can make a stock tank..
It is not cool. I wish in our society people would get held accountable for remarks that are baseless and slanderous because it would deter it from happening. Instead he got way more page views and likes on Twitter because of the salacious sounding details and in reality gets rewarded for spreading fake news.
All one must do is view this video and it becomes very clear why Darren likes to go after people. I don't think I have ever seen a dude run this bad.
I don't know who bid on the 55 Clemente, but Rovell supported his conclusion about as well as a plumber's rear end. If three fat cats butt heads in two auctions, why would the two winners continue to bid on something they already own? Anyone who understands ebay bidding knows what happens to the next auction.
There have always been examples of this. A lot of people here could probably even name registry participants who drove up prices of cards while completing their sets, but those price changes are temporary.
I’m not trying to downplay the current situation at all. But the same “chain of custody” evidence was provided for the vintage homemade cello packs that ended up in slabs a few years back and yet that was not sufficient to hold the person responsible accountable or even bring charges.
This is definitely not something to be ignored or swept under the rug. But let’s also not see people getting out in front of the headlights based on speculation and hyperbole either.
Even IF every card that blowout has exposed as suspicious is indeed altered, and every card in the same submissions as those are guilty by association we are still talking about something that is about 1/20th of 1 percent of everything that has ever been slabbed.
While I put myself in the camp that believes that even 1 altered card in a slab is unacceptable, I’m also pragmatic and understand that we live in the real world. There will always be bad actors using the latest in technology and techniques trying to stay ahead of the grading systems with alterations. And there will, hopefully, always be TPGs making investments in new technologies and techniques to foil the wrong doers. That’s reality.
As long as the reliability can remain 99%+ or better and as long as the TPGs demonstrate continued investment to improve the fidelity of their services this is mostly a solvable situation.
What we don’t need is a panic induced by unsubstantiated opinions and the kind of “hit piece” garbage that you would find in the National Enquirer like the article that just came out. There was some factual info in that article, but there was a bias and spin with a very deliberate anti-PSA purpose too.
We deserve timely, transparent updates from the leading players in the industry. They deserve to be given reasonable leeway to navigate a complex situation without a bunch of innuendo, baseless claims and character assassination distracting them from working it out.
Giving them that time and freedom is also in our interests and the interests of the hobby as long as our trust is not abused or dismissed. That is why timely feedback that is carefully worded to reflect what is real is so important.
We have a great hobby. We have a minority of bad actors who we need to try to keep from messing it up. That’s what everyone wants, so why create such divisiveness based on conjecture and hearsay that only hinders getting the bad guys stopped?
@demondeacs said:
I don't know who bid on the 55 Clemente, but Rovell supported his conclusion about as well as a plumber's rear end. If three fat cats butt heads in two auctions, why would the two winners continue to bid on something they already own? Anyone who understands ebay bidding knows what happens to the next auction.
There have always been examples of this. A lot of people here could probably even name registry participants who drove up prices of cards while completing their sets, but those price changes are temporary.
Rovell more or less NAILED the 2016 buyers group shenanigans in his article. He conveniently left out the fact that a certain consignment operator, who has recently been involved in the current controversy, and a certain auction house that were up to their necks in it too.
Easier for Rovell to misrepresent the Orlando options exercising and try to fan the flames of fear and doubt than to present actual facts that expose bad actors for all to be aware of.
Even IF every card that blowout has exposed as suspicious is indeed altered, and every card in the same submissions as those are guilty by association we are still talking about something that is about 1/20th of 1 percent of everything that has ever been slabbed.
While I put myself in the camp that believes that even 1 altered card in a slab is unacceptable, I’m also pragmatic and understand that we live in the real world. There will always be bad actors using the latest in technology and techniques trying to stay ahead of the grading systems with alterations. And there will, hopefully, always be TPGs making investments in new technologies and techniques to foil the wrong doers. That’s reality.
Just look at the Fed constantly changing the tech on paper money to stay ahead of the counterfeiters. I know it gets redundant to say but wherever money is to be made there will ALWAYS be fraud. Nothing can or will change that fact of human nature.
Counterfeiters won’t take down our currency and card doctors / surgeons won’t take down our hobby.
@70ToppsFanatic said:
I’m not trying to downplay the current situation at all. But the same “chain of custody” evidence was provided for the vintage homemade cello packs that ended up in slabs a few years back and yet that was not sufficient to hold the person responsible accountable or even bring charges.
This is definitely not something to be ignored or swept under the rug. But let’s also not see people getting out in front of the headlights based on speculation and hyperbole either.
Even IF every card that blowout has exposed as suspicious is indeed altered, and every card in the same submissions as those are guilty by association we are still talking about something that is about 1/20th of 1 percent of everything that has ever been slabbed.
While I put myself in the camp that believes that even 1 altered card in a slab is unacceptable, I’m also pragmatic and understand that we live in the real world. There will always be bad actors using the latest in technology and techniques trying to stay ahead of the grading systems with alterations. And there will, hopefully, always be TPGs making investments in new technologies and techniques to foil the wrong doers. That’s reality.
As long as the reliability can remain 99%+ or better and as long as the TPGs demonstrate continued investment to improve the fidelity of their services this is mostly a solvable situation.
What we don’t need is a panic induced by unsubstantiated opinions and the kind of “hit piece” garbage that you would find in the National Enquirer like the article that just came out. There was some factual info in that article, but there was a bias and spin with a very deliberate anti-PSA purpose too.
We deserve timely, transparent updates from the leading players in the industry. They deserve to be given reasonable leeway to navigate a complex situation without a bunch of innuendo, baseless claims and character assassination distracting them from working it out.
Giving them that time and freedom is also in our interests and the interests of the hobby as long as our trust is not abused or dismissed. That is why timely feedback that is carefully worded to reflect what is real is so important.
We have a great hobby. We have a minority of bad actors who we need to try to keep from messing it up. That’s what everyone wants, so why create such divisiveness based on conjecture and hearsay that only hinders getting the bad guys stopped?
I think you are wayyy off on number of tainted cards you think are slabbed. I bet it's well north of 500. BO seems to find more daily, and they probably aren't spending a lot of time looking for cards that are "questionable".
I do agree not to pass around false or unconfirmed information. As much as I thought Joe's message was a disgrace, it doesn't give anyone the right to assume why he sold company stock. I agree with DPeck on why he did it. Executives in major companies have this option and may have a deadline to make a decision to sell, whether the time is right or not. Seems here it coincided with the trimming scandal, surely bad timing. I could be wrong, but doubt it.
As for the Jose pack scandal, that never had the legs or push like the current scandal seems to have over numerous boards. In fact, what was the end result of that scandal? I can't recall to be honest, would love to know.
You are not wrong. There is 100% proof that both Joe and the CFO did a cashless stock option exercise to cover the taxes.
@CrissCriss said:
I was told today at the show to brace for a major market slide in the next year or two. But go ahead, laugh at me like you did the last time.
Predict enough dips over time and at some point you will get it right
I unknowingly purchased one of these doctored cards back in 2017. PWCC has offered to refund me the purchase price of the card. That said it's a Steph Curry card that's appreciated in value - a few more rings/etc have happened since then.
Do you guys think I should be happy with the "refund the purchase price" situation? It seems to me like they should be refunding not only the original purchase price but the increased value of the card. Not sure what sort of options I have, I'm not interested in filing suit but joining some sort of larger class would be ok.
That anonymous letter is not credible, IMO. Such systemic collusion would certainly have been leaked much sooner. There is too much incentive to do so, either as a disgruntled employee or an insider motivated to capitalize on Whistleblower laws that compensate employees, stakeholders and other non-arms length parties to out this stuff.
I don't see it as credible either. The bulk volume submitted are commons and those aren't getting trimmed or rarely are. Is he trying to say that many of the 519 1969 Topps Al Dark cards are altered?
@LGC said:
That anonymous letter is not credible, IMO. Such systemic collusion would certainly have been leaked much sooner. **There is too much incentive to do so, either as a disgruntled employee or an insider motivated to capitalize on Whistleblower laws that compensate employees, stakeholders and other non-arms length parties to out this stuff.
**
Agreed. Not to mention the people who almost certainly could have negotiated a lighter sentence a few years ago in exchange for those details. If any cooperation was going on like that, we'd already know about it from any number of sources.
@Dpeck100 said:
Joe did a cashless stock option exercise.
Darren Rovell chose the shock and awe route and his allegations are completely false.
Apart from semantics, I see no difference in selling stock and exercising options on a cashless basis. Exact same thing as far as I'm concerned.
You are obviously free to feel how ever you want about the issue but the stock market certainly doesn't treat them the same.
The article clearly implies that Joe is trying to bail in front of the pending collapse and this couldn't be further from the truth.
One second of research was all it took to determine what happened and the author could have done the same but then his story wouldn't have been as juicy so obviously no interest in that.
Instead Joe gets trolled on Twitter, Instagram, and message boards so Darren got what he wanted.
The stock market realizes it is compensation and not someone selling shares they already own. Most people wouldn't be able to accept their bonus if they had to pay the taxes upfront to receive it. It is very simple.
@Dpeck100 said:
The stock market realizes it is compensation and not someone selling shares they already own. Most people wouldn't be able to accept their bonus if they had to pay the taxes upfront to receive it. It is very simple.
Thanks for spelling it out in plain English so that everyone understands that when a corporate exec exercises options there are usually taxes to pay (on the gain between the exercise price and the current price) and that the money to pay the taxes is normally sourced via selling some shares at the same time as exercising the option.
Interesting reading to say the least and I’m not sure if this was addressed and answered previously but what is everyone’s opinion on the Moser /PWCC tie? If cards were getting shilled and not really sold in some cases, is PWCC complicit?
Members here should go check out that thread MUST READ TRIMMING THREAD: COMC- HawkDynasty,cccardfactory,LORDSTANLEY2012|PWCC|ih8ca in the BO baseball section.
Members here should go check out that thread MUST READ TRIMMING THREAD: COMC- HawkDynasty,cccardfactory,LORDSTANLEY2012|PWCC|ih8ca in the BO baseball section.
Members here should go check out that thread MUST READ TRIMMING THREAD: COMC- HawkDynasty,cccardfactory,LORDSTANLEY2012|PWCC|ih8ca in the BO baseball section.
We are going to need more FBI guys.
I saw a graphic that this guy was COMC's 3rd largest seller and #1 consigner so i wouldn't be surprised if the FBI looks into his history of transactions too.
@brad31 said:
Still believe the only thing we have the power to do is no longer buy from PWCC. Hope many exercise this power. I believe PSA made honest mistakes in grading altered cards. I do not believe PWCC thought these cards were unaltered when they were selling them.
You think PWCC can detect altered cards and PSA cannot? This all falls on PSA. It's their guarantee. PWCC is simply a dealer although a big one. If I buy a card from PWCC, it's guaranteed to be what it says it is by PSA. Collectors shouldn't have to worry about a dealer if he's selling PSA graded cards.
No matter what you think about COMC (the person that exposed this)....the facts are the facts and he deals in facts. The guys has been a tremendous asset to the hobby in exposing its ills and the people that are committing what amounts to fraud and grand theft. These are not simple hobby people but true criminals in the same vein as Bernie Madoff, Lehman Brothers, etc involved in the hobby we all love. When you purchase say a PSA 8 $200 card and trim it into a PSA 10 then sell it to some sucker for $50k there is a BIG problem in the industry and it needs to be addressed pronto.
And for a lot of us that do not purchase these big cards and think "i'm safe, I don't deal with this high end stuff" you are dead wrong. The focus on exposing these has been mainly on the bigger value cards, but, I guarantee many of us including myself are sitting on cards that were trimmed and do not even realize it.
@80sOPC said:
Yes a few COMC whales have been outed and their cards have been removed.
I don't believe their cards have been removed yet. I saw the main guy, HawkDynasty, being advertised on COMC's homepage today about some bs % off.
All Hawk, Lord Stanley, and cccardfactory stuff was removed yesterday. Also, the big promotion they were going to be doing has been removed from the front page, presumably because a lot of the stuff that was going to be made available was Hawk's stuff.
One thing that will be important for PSA to eventually address is whether all this trimming is being missed because insufficient time is being devoted per card, or because PSA just isn’t able to detect it.
Comments
Another new article.....
https://www.axios.com/baseball-card-collecting-fraud-scandal-fbi-investigation-2dc25180-2f3d-4e4e-a0d6-108da3d1c464.html
Never heard of axios.com before.
"And the cards they sold were graded by an appraisal firm that charges customers based on the grades they give their cards rather than a flat-fee, thus incentivizing them to give higher, possibly inaccurate grades."
And now I know why. Every card I've submitted has been charged a flat fee. No upcharges, ever. The people I know who've had them only received them on a tiny amount of their raw submissions. Hardly a big source of revenue and not relevant to the other issues that have affected every tpg since the beginning.
Just imagine.
Just imagine if we went back to the days of Carter, Burdick, Bray e.g.
A hobby: an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.
This one just popped in my news feed as well. Not sure if it was shared elsewhere....
https://www.actionnetwork.com/general/darren-rovell-card-memorabilia-fraud-national-sports-collector-convention
IMO a mixture of what actually happened in 2016 and a lot of loose speculation, unsupported hyperbole and some utter nonsense about the current allegations.
No one should be so naive to think that there arent altered cards that have found their way into slabs. TPG services require imperfect humans so there is no way it will ever be 100%.
On the other hand, ~500 cards being identified as being suspicious over on BO forums doesn’t quite make this a sky-is-falling event that lead to executive stock dumping, a largely “bogus” market or many of the sensationalized possibilities and fantasies that the author suggested in the article.
We should all be concerned about the allegations. What has been disseminated so far paints a very troubling picture that all stakeholders would be unwise to simply dismiss. There’s a lot more needed to turn allegations into factually based accusations. And so far there isn’t very much factual information at all to fairly try and quantify the scale if the allegations turn out to be shown to be accurate. Anyone who claims otherwise is expressing opinions not facts.
This one is going to take a while to figure out and it’s going to undermine confidence while people have to wait for the answers. But getting something this complicated correct is critical. There are so many innocent stakeholders who could be adversely impacted if it is not dealt with intelligently and with focus on both the specific allegations and the big picture.
And if I were to make any suggestion to PSA about this it would be to be very careful about what goes into your public statements about this situation in an environment where many will seize upon specific words you use, or don’t use, and try to characterize the “tone” of what you said in order to further whatever their personal agendas may be. That doesn’t mean to suggest going silent. Transparency and regular updates are important confidence rebuilders that are desperately needed. Just suggesting that you review the statements a bit more and look for places where something can be read in that you did not intend to say.
Hoping for the best interests of the hobby and the majority of its stakeholders to be prioritized and protected by all involved.
Dave
I agree the sky isn’t falling but those 500 cards are ONLY cards that were sold by PWCC, bought by Moser and then resold by PWCC.
Anything bought raw is out of scope. Bought private, out of scope. Anything sold private, out of scope. Most AH sales, out of scope. Other card doctors, unknown.
And those cards don’t include all the trimmed modern cards that are known. Some of them monster 100k+ cards.
I have no idea how big this thing is but a few posters on Blowout finding 500 cards is not indicative of a small event, quite the opposite. Those cards most likely represent a fraction of the overall impact.
Also, lets drop the canard that those cards are just allegations. These are 100% factually based accusations. These guys have proven chain of custody and can pin point the exact alteration. I struggle to understand how someone can read most of those card posts and think that there isn’t definitive proof. PWCC has hired a stud criminal defence lawyer and is in the process of refunding 100s of thousands of dollars on cards found on those threads. If the proof found is good enough for them to write a 30k check for the Maris, and 10k for the Dryden, its good enough for me.
I agree completely with your last paragraphs. As someone all in on the hobby my biggest concern is the scandals appear to be getting bigger. If this one gets swept away, I’d expect the next scandal to be multiple sizes larger. At some point the hobby will eat itself.
This is the 200+ year problem with capitalism. With Capitalism right and wrong almost always get tossed out the window in favor of which one is more profitable.
Joe did a cashless stock option exercise.
Darren Rovell chose the shock and awe route and his allegations are completely false.
It is not cool. I wish in our society people would get held accountable for remarks that are baseless and slanderous because it would deter it from happening. Instead he got way more page views and likes on Twitter because of the salacious sounding details and in reality gets rewarded for spreading fake news.
All one must do is view this video and it becomes very clear why Darren likes to go after people. I don't think I have ever seen a dude run this bad.
I don't know who bid on the 55 Clemente, but Rovell supported his conclusion about as well as a plumber's rear end. If three fat cats butt heads in two auctions, why would the two winners continue to bid on something they already own? Anyone who understands ebay bidding knows what happens to the next auction.
There have always been examples of this. A lot of people here could probably even name registry participants who drove up prices of cards while completing their sets, but those price changes are temporary.
I’m not trying to downplay the current situation at all. But the same “chain of custody” evidence was provided for the vintage homemade cello packs that ended up in slabs a few years back and yet that was not sufficient to hold the person responsible accountable or even bring charges.
This is definitely not something to be ignored or swept under the rug. But let’s also not see people getting out in front of the headlights based on speculation and hyperbole either.
Even IF every card that blowout has exposed as suspicious is indeed altered, and every card in the same submissions as those are guilty by association we are still talking about something that is about 1/20th of 1 percent of everything that has ever been slabbed.
While I put myself in the camp that believes that even 1 altered card in a slab is unacceptable, I’m also pragmatic and understand that we live in the real world. There will always be bad actors using the latest in technology and techniques trying to stay ahead of the grading systems with alterations. And there will, hopefully, always be TPGs making investments in new technologies and techniques to foil the wrong doers. That’s reality.
As long as the reliability can remain 99%+ or better and as long as the TPGs demonstrate continued investment to improve the fidelity of their services this is mostly a solvable situation.
What we don’t need is a panic induced by unsubstantiated opinions and the kind of “hit piece” garbage that you would find in the National Enquirer like the article that just came out. There was some factual info in that article, but there was a bias and spin with a very deliberate anti-PSA purpose too.
We deserve timely, transparent updates from the leading players in the industry. They deserve to be given reasonable leeway to navigate a complex situation without a bunch of innuendo, baseless claims and character assassination distracting them from working it out.
Giving them that time and freedom is also in our interests and the interests of the hobby as long as our trust is not abused or dismissed. That is why timely feedback that is carefully worded to reflect what is real is so important.
We have a great hobby. We have a minority of bad actors who we need to try to keep from messing it up. That’s what everyone wants, so why create such divisiveness based on conjecture and hearsay that only hinders getting the bad guys stopped?
Dave
Rovell more or less NAILED the 2016 buyers group shenanigans in his article. He conveniently left out the fact that a certain consignment operator, who has recently been involved in the current controversy, and a certain auction house that were up to their necks in it too.
Easier for Rovell to misrepresent the Orlando options exercising and try to fan the flames of fear and doubt than to present actual facts that expose bad actors for all to be aware of.
Dave
Just look at the Fed constantly changing the tech on paper money to stay ahead of the counterfeiters. I know it gets redundant to say but wherever money is to be made there will ALWAYS be fraud. Nothing can or will change that fact of human nature.
Counterfeiters won’t take down our currency and card doctors / surgeons won’t take down our hobby.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
You are not wrong. There is 100% proof that both Joe and the CFO did a cashless stock option exercise to cover the taxes.
Here is Joe's SEC disclosure.
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1089143/000143774919013404/xslF345X03/rdgdoc.xml
Explanation of Responses:
1. Sale of shares under 10(b)5-1 Plan to satisfy withholding taxes on shares that vested on June 30, 2019.
People need to be more careful with such slanderous accusations.
i wish i could do a cashless stock option exercise!!! But I do not own any equity or stock in anything but my collection
Predict enough dips over time and at some point you will get it right
I unknowingly purchased one of these doctored cards back in 2017. PWCC has offered to refund me the purchase price of the card. That said it's a Steph Curry card that's appreciated in value - a few more rings/etc have happened since then.
Do you guys think I should be happy with the "refund the purchase price" situation? It seems to me like they should be refunding not only the original purchase price but the increased value of the card. Not sure what sort of options I have, I'm not interested in filing suit but joining some sort of larger class would be ok.
I would be happy with the purchase price. I imagine getting money back from PWCC would be like trying to pry a nut from a squrirrel's hand.
If it's in a PSA Slab, is sending it back to PSA a possible solution (using their Guarantee of the grade)?
Eyebrow raising blowout post showing a letter from an alleged TPG insider. Could be BS. Concerning nonetheless
That anonymous letter is not credible, IMO. Such systemic collusion would certainly have been leaked much sooner. There is too much incentive to do so, either as a disgruntled employee or an insider motivated to capitalize on Whistleblower laws that compensate employees, stakeholders and other non-arms length parties to out this stuff.
I don't see it as credible either. The bulk volume submitted are commons and those aren't getting trimmed or rarely are. Is he trying to say that many of the 519 1969 Topps Al Dark cards are altered?
The following may help explain why this was nothing nefarious:
https://www.danielzajac.com/the-math-behind-a-cashless-exercise-of-non-qualified-stock-options/
Dave
**
Agreed. Not to mention the people who almost certainly could have negotiated a lighter sentence a few years ago in exchange for those details. If any cooperation was going on like that, we'd already know about it from any number of sources.
You are obviously free to feel how ever you want about the issue but the stock market certainly doesn't treat them the same.
The article clearly implies that Joe is trying to bail in front of the pending collapse and this couldn't be further from the truth.
One second of research was all it took to determine what happened and the author could have done the same but then his story wouldn't have been as juicy so obviously no interest in that.
Instead Joe gets trolled on Twitter, Instagram, and message boards so Darren got what he wanted.
The stock market realizes it is compensation and not someone selling shares they already own. Most people wouldn't be able to accept their bonus if they had to pay the taxes upfront to receive it. It is very simple.
Thanks for spelling it out in plain English so that everyone understands that when a corporate exec exercises options there are usually taxes to pay (on the gain between the exercise price and the current price) and that the money to pay the taxes is normally sourced via selling some shares at the same time as exercising the option.
Dave
Interesting reading to say the least and I’m not sure if this was addressed and answered previously but what is everyone’s opinion on the Moser /PWCC tie? If cards were getting shilled and not really sold in some cases, is PWCC complicit?
https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/grand-jury-subpoenas-part-of-nscc-events/
another
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2019/08/06/baseball-cards-has-latest-sports-trading-card-scam-been-uncovered/1929959001/
it appears from BO now that COMC has issues and there may be a massive buyback program in the works...
Members here should go check out that thread MUST READ TRIMMING THREAD: COMC- HawkDynasty,cccardfactory,LORDSTANLEY2012|PWCC|ih8ca in the BO baseball section.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
@erikthredd said:
We are going to need more FBI guys.
I saw a graphic that this guy was COMC's 3rd largest seller and #1 consigner so i wouldn't be surprised if the FBI looks into his history of transactions too.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Yes a few COMC whales have been outed and their cards have been removed.
Looks like I’m done buying graded cards for now. This is making me more depressed everyday.
welcome to the forum.
No matter what you think about COMC (the person that exposed this)....the facts are the facts and he deals in facts. The guys has been a tremendous asset to the hobby in exposing its ills and the people that are committing what amounts to fraud and grand theft. These are not simple hobby people but true criminals in the same vein as Bernie Madoff, Lehman Brothers, etc involved in the hobby we all love. When you purchase say a PSA 8 $200 card and trim it into a PSA 10 then sell it to some sucker for $50k there is a BIG problem in the industry and it needs to be addressed pronto.
And for a lot of us that do not purchase these big cards and think "i'm safe, I don't deal with this high end stuff" you are dead wrong. The focus on exposing these has been mainly on the bigger value cards, but, I guarantee many of us including myself are sitting on cards that were trimmed and do not even realize it.
The COMC thread is so depressing
Can we get a link to that thread?
The Alonso Mosely post made me laugh, great character in an under appreciated movie
Pretty sick. Glad I'm leaving the hobby.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1315750
I don't believe their cards have been removed yet. I saw the main guy, HawkDynasty, being advertised on COMC's homepage today about some bs % off.
All Hawk, Lord Stanley, and cccardfactory stuff was removed yesterday. Also, the big promotion they were going to be doing has been removed from the front page, presumably because a lot of the stuff that was going to be made available was Hawk's stuff.
One thing that will be important for PSA to eventually address is whether all this trimming is being missed because insufficient time is being devoted per card, or because PSA just isn’t able to detect it.
Is this the first instance of an alleged ex-PSA grader being involved?
I say alleged because I do not want to get banned.