Double Eagles in common usage by the public.
topstuf
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From the number of marks I see on Early $20 Libs, I wonder if they were actually COMMONLY in pockets as spending money.
We hear about bagging for bullion reserves, but it seems that if they weren't used as money, there wouldn't be so many worn ones with obvious dings all over both services.
?????
3
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No. They were rarely seen in circulation anyplace - including the West coast. In the 50s, 60s and early 70s many San Francisco Mint issues were shipped up and down the North American coast. But $10 were the largest that made it into cash tills, etc.
(See the Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle book from Heritage for more information.)
Walking around with a double eagle in your pocket was like leaving home more than $2,000 in cash today. Many people probably never saw one on any regular basis. They were used for large gold based transactions. They got banged around in bags, and since they were large, heavy and soft, they were subject to a lot of bag marks.
Roger's comment about the $10 gold coins probably explains why many of the 19th century dates are super rare in strict Mint State today. Few collectors could afford to set them aside, and they did get some usage. Back in 1976 when I saw Eliasberg's collection which was on display at the Philadelphia Mint, I was surprised at how many of his coins were not Mint State. People saw the $10 coins occasionally, but it was not on a daily basis.
When I was in high school I remember reading in "Huckleberry Finn" where Huck put a $20 gold piece on a board to float to someone who needed it. I knew Mark Twain had not done his homework because the $20 gold piece was first released in 1850. As I recall the novel was set in the mid 1830s to 1840.
BillJones---I agree with your assessment but I think that your equating a double eagle to $2000 today is a bit of an exaggeration.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I agree, from the following web-site.....https://www.officialdata.org/us/inflation/1850?amount=20
"U.S. Inflation Rate, $20 in 1850 to 2019
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics consumer price index, today's prices in 2019 are 3,183.23% higher than average prices throughout 1850. The dollar experienced an average inflation rate of 2.09% per year during this period, meaning the real value of a dollar decreased.
In other words, $20 in 1850 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $656.65 in 2019, a difference of $636.65 over 169 years._
The 1850 inflation rate was 1.30%. The current inflation rate (2018 to 2019) is now 1.79%1. If this number holds, $20 today will be equivalent in buying power to $20.36 next year. The current inflation rate page gives more detail on the latest official inflation rates."
Edited to add- Still a lot of money though. I'm sure very few folks had that much on hand.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
An Adjuster at the Philadelphia Mint was paid 75- to 85-cents a day. One DE was about 6-weeks income.
Merchants were also suspicious of any ordinary customer with gold in their hands - it was simply not "normal" for ordinary people to have it. Bank paper, US and foreign silver, and copper pieces were the usual money in circulation.
Check your math. They made about $5 per week for a 6 day work week so a double eagle would be about 4 weeks pay.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Thanks for the correction --- I had my shoes on and that made calculations difficult...
My grandmother was born in 1894 and when she was a young woman in the early 1900's she was a telephone switchboard operator. She told me they got paid 11 cents per hour and it was considered good pay at he time.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I have run these figures myself in the past. It is an interesting exercise, and one that makes you question the current $1,400 gold price.
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
A Colt Single Action Army revolver was about $15 when it was introduced in 1873. Today....what? Well, it's discontinued but it was about $1,200 a couple years ago.
http://anotherandrosphereblog.blogspot.com/2013/03/how-much-did-things-cost-in-1850s-usa.html
All I know is that the coins of the period look shopworn.
No gold coins were seen when I was a kid....aside from pictures.....I did not even know anyone whose father/uncle/grandfather had a gold coin... Kids knew they had silver dollars... but never mentioned gold. Cheers, RickO
Since prior to 1933, the value of gold in relation to the dollar was fixed at $20.67/oz, the inflation numbers are meaningless. During the Civil War and reconstruction era (1861-1879), the value of the dollar fluctuated against gold. In other words, gold had the constant value and the dollar drifted up and down. But otherwise during 1834-1860 and 1879-1932 gold was the steady value. Any inflation seen was in other goods and property. Perryhall has it right to gauge the value of gold against wages of the time to get a true feel for the value it held and the inflation at the time.
Once you have paper that can be exchanged for gold, then no one would actually carry it around. Too heavy.
Wouldn't it be more likely that 50C and 25C pieces were used to pay bills at banks and every day commerce?
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Besides Mark Twain, other American authors have assumed that double eagles or $20 gold coins were around before 1850.
In Eugene O'Neill's 1924 play Desire Under the Elms, set in 1850 at a New England farm, young Eben Cabot is taken by his mother and shown where his father buried "twenty-dollar pieces - thirty of 'em" several years earlier.
In Frank Yerby's 1946 novel The Foxes Of Harrow, Stephen Fox arrives in Louisiana in 1827 with a "twenty-dollar gold piece" and becomes a wealthy plantation owner.
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My grandfather (born 1900) had a $5 Indian, which my dad acquired at some point. I saw it as a young boy, close to 50 years ago, I think when grandpa gave us all UNC $1 silver certificates. I think a lot of people at the time might have acquired gold coins in whatever denomination they could afford, just before owning gold became illegal. Grandpa was a railroad worker throughout the Depression so $5 must have been a lot of money. Unfortunately, no one in my family knows where this coin went.
The interesting thing about today is that many people walk around with much more than $2,000 of credit on their credit cards.
That's pretty cool! Did you mention this to the teacher?
Getting back to the original question, I know a little bit about circulation wear on coins, and I have seen a heckuva lot of 19th century gold coins with normal circulation wear on them.
2oth century gold a different matter.
Maybe it was that 1854-S that showed up recently.
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
Barter was a common form of economic activity up to the early 1900s; much of the population of the country lived on farms also, not needing money that much. Of course those living in cities and doing major transactions probably used silver and gold up to when paper money became far more convenient. I remember on "Three Stooges" episode where Moe got impressed by a $20 gold piece.
I agree, a huge amount of money for a large part of the population. And in inflated US dollars even the last 20-30 years has seen the dollar shrink greatly. http://www.in2013dollars.com/1860-dollars-in-2017?amount=1
$1 in 1860 would be worth $132 today in food; housing $578; and energy $364; medical care services $2613!
My grandmother was born in 1895 and had the same job.
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My grandmother was born in 1890 and she worked as a switchboard operator. She told me that one Christmas she got a $2.50 gold piece in her pay envelope in place of that much regular money. As best as she could remember that was the entire amount.
My father was born to early yuppie parents in 1928. Both worked even during the Depression.
A woman was hired to take care of him during the week. During the Depression, her pay was 10 cents a day, a lunch,and bus fare.
Prices are very hard to quantify based on the 1001 inflation guides.
For example, 1 pound of rice cost 11 cents in 1872. It costs 33 cents a pound today at Sams.
A bar of soad was 8 cents, now 46 cents.
Fresh Pork: 12 cents, today at the store it was 99 cents.
Butter 1 pound 39 cents, $2.50 today.
Dozen Eggs: 30 cents, this weekend on sale 29 cents
Coal, Ton: $ 9.25, today around $40
All definitely not a 30 x increase.
Several years ago, I gave a birth year double eagle (1926) to my Mom. It was the first one she had ever seen. Of course her being through the Depression, any coins were rarities, the same as they were for me in my early years!
My mother was born in 1921. I wish I could afford a birth year double eagle for my mom.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I have metal detected for over 30 years in the upper Midwest. Found well over 2,000 silver coins. Zero gold coins. I have only heard of a couple being found in my area, and one was in a necklace.
We have been through so many cultural and economic changes in the last 100 plus years it is probably impossible to conceive of the role of money in commerce then vs. now. I suppose people could try to use the big gold coins in transactions, but those who did so unless with purpose, would be seen as showy and ostentatious like Diamond Jim Brady.
In one famous chess game there was a legend that the board was showered with gold coins, though that is disputed by some: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levitsky_versus_Marshall
My dad worked in my grandfather's hardware store during the mid-1940s and was able to accumulate a mostly complete collection of Barber dimes, quarters & halves. When I looked at his coin albums as a kid, I was in awe to see coins that were completely different than the ones in use.
The only gold coins I ever saw as a kid were in the original Blue Book he had, and in a 1960s Red Book that became my reference for US coins. I could never figure out why some of the smaller denominations of gold were worth so much more on a per ounce basis than the double eagles - which had much more gold for the price.
I never even heard of any of my acquaintances or their families owning any gold coins. The first silver bullion I ever bought was 100 onzas in 1974, and my first gold coin was a double eagle, in 1977. I used to hide it in the fender of my Mustang II. Dumb.
I knew it would happen.
In the episode of American Experience "The Battle Over Citizen Kane," they say something to the effect of "when Willie (William Randolph Hearst) wanted ice cream, his father would toss him a $20 gold piece."
(I always hope the $20 didn't get dinged up too badly in the 'toss'....)
Fred.....You have seen the European hoards. What say ye about this?
I.....still say... them things is pocket worn.
Coins of any series entered circulation to a greater or lesser extent. The proportion of DE being used in commerce was minuscule compared to total production. It also varied with local economies and availability. Carson Mint DE should appear in worn condition at a greater rate than P or SF coins simply because Carson was an isolated economy were DE were local money.
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The book "Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles" I wrote (available from Heritage Auctions) has several essays explaining DE circulation in the 19th and 20th centuries, along with export patterns and estimates of surviving coins in Europe. It also explains why the so-called "Wells Fargo Hoard" was much larger than commonly described.
When I, and others, were going to Europe buying raw US
gold (for me, 1973 to 1998), we really wanted all the BU,
choice BU, gem BU US gold we could get offered to us.
The dealers, and especially the Banks there, had large quantities
of VF or under circ $5's, $10's, and $20's. They were called 'third quality'
and were cheap compared to First Quality coins, but still had
a premium. (Second Quality were XF/AU's). They were most
Although the vast amount of coins were BU or better, that I purchased,
I would still buy 1,000 to multi-thousand groups, depending on the
market back in the States at the time -
There were plenty of US gold coins that circulated here, but luckily,
most of the unused US larger size gold ended up in Europe, instead
of being melted or turned in, back in '33.
Some thoughts
In Jan Of 1860 The paymaster of the
troops USArmy Fort Vancouver
Washington Territory complained
about the scarcity of small gold
coins on the Pacific Coast resulting in an inconvenience regarding the
payment of troops
He wanted the SF Br Mint to
coin quarter eagles three dollar and one dollar gold
coins in exchange for Double Eagles
December same year a stage coach agent in Sonoma County CA complained about the abundance
of Double Eagles and the passengers who provided them for payment at the last minute seeking
change resulting in a delay of
departures
Note when the SS Brother Jonathan
sank off Crescent City CA in 1865
she was carrying an Army payroll
of $200,000 (paper currency)
In 1873 I saw records showing the
SF Mint melting $23,000 in abraided
gold coin in order to renovate or re-coin
Granted a small number considering the amount produced
How about a heap of Morgans?
Smitten with DBLCs.
I do have a 1921 Peace Dollar but I'm primarily a US gold coin collector. Unfortunately the only US gold coin minted in my mother's birth year was the 1921 Saint Gaudens double eagle which is a prohibitively expensive coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
My article on the phantom 1873-S Dollars mentions the law passed in 1872 that compensated the Mints for short weights on abraided older gold coins recoined at the proper weights.
A Treasury Dept. goal was to maintain gold coin in circulation within its nominal tolerance. This was felt necessary in part to balance against Federal paper and certificates.