1795 Half Cent… thoughts?

ffcoins · June 16, 2019 9:13AM

Wonder what you guys think about this one, especially the scratches/bruises. It’s a raw coin, but the seller said he thought if graded it had a 50-50 chance of winding up in a details slab, and put it in the VG range.

amwldcoin · June 16, 2019 9:15AM

It should end up in a details holder but ya never know these days!

lkenefic · June 16, 2019 2:14PM

I've seen far worse. Probably comes down to how the coin is priced.

BillJones · June 16, 2019 4:15PM

It’s worth at least the Good price. Some people don’t realize how motley a Good graded early coin is these days. The obverse has the black color, but the main devices are sharp. The weakness on the reverse is typical. Those dies were warped on a number of varieties leaving the “HALF CENT” unreadable, even in VF or better. It’s hard to find these coins nice in the well circulated grades.

cameonut2011 · June 16, 2019 4:29PM

It deserves a details grade. At least that is my four half cents worth...

BryceM · June 16, 2019 4:34PM

Would you be happy receiving this in a straight-grade holder if you bought it sight-unseen? If not, you already know what should happen.

Even so, there is a lot to like about this coin. They’re not exactly common in any condition.

golden · June 16, 2019 5:24PM

I don't think that it will straight grade.

291fifth · June 16, 2019 5:38PM

It is a "details" coin. It is also a 1795 which makes up for some sins if the price is right.

ffcoins · June 16, 2019 5:49PM

Thanks for the input!

@BillJones said:
It’s worth at least the Good price. Some people don’t realize how motley a Good graded early coin is these days. The obverse has the black color, but the main devices are sharp. The weakness on the reverse is typical. Those dies were warped on a number of varieties leaving the “HALF CENT” unreadable, even in VF or better. It’s hard to find these coins nice in the well circulated grades.

A couple questions:

-is the black not desirable? I kind of like the contrast between the field and raised areas
-is the weak reverse Half Cent from wear, a bad die, or a combination of both? (I’ve also noticed these with VF holders missing the Half Cent)

BillJones · June 16, 2019 6:06PM

Black copper is a form of corrosion in the opinion of many. It is not as bad a green, but perhaps a little below red corrosion. The most ideal color is original red, which is probably nonexistent for these coins. Beyond that light tan to brown are the most desirable colors.

The weakness on the center of the reverse is largely from the die. The words “HALF CENT “ were at best weak when the coin was struck. Other weaknesses were due to wear. These coins were not made with the upset, protective rims that are on modern coins. Therefore they lost their design details more quickly.

If I get a chance, I will post a piece in Choice AU tomorrow.

Indulger · June 16, 2019 7:00PM

Probably details, but they might be lenient. It’s early copper..I like it!

EdHayes · June 16, 2019 9:54PM

For a circulated 1795 half cent? I say, exceptional. Sure it has problems you can point out, but c'mon, look at the boldness of the denticles, the liberty bust standing out from the darker copper background surface (not to mention still visible eye and mouth detail) and the boldness of "LIBERTY." Important to bear in mind this is a copper (at that time, absolutely more problematic than silver) product of the 1790's Philadelphia mint.

ricko · June 17, 2019 4:28AM

This coin will details grade, but still a desirable coin.... The contrast on the obverse is interesting... and @BillJones clearly explained the weakness of the reverse... Enjoy your coin... Cheers, RickO

ffcoins · June 17, 2019 9:30AM

Thanks again for the input! I’m still waiting for it to arrive, but I definitely will enjoy it.

lkenefic · June 17, 2019 10:05AM

As Bill stated, black on copper is a form of corrosion but this piece certainly isn't terminal. The only spot that gives me pause is that greenish spot in between the E and R of LIBERTY.

carabonnair · June 17, 2019 10:24AM

All in all a decent example. I've certainly seen a lot worse. As for the several (minor) problems, I think the rim bruises detract the most. I agree with @BillJones that the reverse weakness is from the mint. It could also be struck on a Talbot Allum Lee token, as many 1795s were. Hard to tell from the pictures, but if so, may also contribute to the weakness of the reverse design.
If you do intend to slab it (I would not if it were me), you might want to attend to the spot that lkenefic mentioned first.

ffcoins · June 17, 2019 10:27AM

@carabonnair said:
If you do intend to slab it (I would not if it were me), you might want to attend to the spot that lkenefic mentioned first.

I probably don’t intend to slab it, but how would one go about attending to that spot? And would that not add “cleaned” to the assessment?

carabonnair · June 17, 2019 10:36AM

@ffcoins said:

I probably don’t intend to slab it, but how would one go about attending to that spot? And would that not add “cleaned” to the assessment?

Would be worth evaluating once you receive it - maybe with a thread of its own. I'm not suggesting you try cleaning this on your own, but seek advice from other copper collectors if it is active corrosion and needs conservation.

I mentioned it because it should be considered before it is in a slab.

amwldcoin · June 17, 2019 10:40AM

You can probably get a lot of that spot off with a wooden toothpick or rose thorn. I have done this many times and it should not do any thing but improve the appearance of the coin.

PS That looks like a hard spot, you may not be able to phase...if it's hard like I think it should be stable and not spread.

ffcoins · June 17, 2019 12:14PM

@carabonnair @amwldcoin

Thanks. I’ll probably start a new thread then with closeups once I get it and can look closely. I don’t think I’d want to try to do anything to it myself, at least until I do a lot more research.

Are hard spots and soft spots literally hard and soft? Or does it have to do more with the stability of the corrosion?

thebeav · June 17, 2019 12:27PM

I think it has a great 'look'.......

amwldcoin · June 17, 2019 1:22PM

Yes...a hard spot will be like a rock! Hopefully some of it will come off.

@ffcoins said:
@carabonnair @amwldcoin

Thanks. I’ll probably start a new thread then with closeups once I get it and can look closely. I don’t think I’d want to try to do anything to it myself, at least until I do a lot more research.

Are hard spots and soft spots literally hard and soft? Or does it have to do more with the stability of the corrosion?

BillJones · June 17, 2019 1:37PM

Here is the high grade piece I promised to post. This one is the lettered edge variety (two minor types of edge lettering, one of them very rare and this one isn't it!), which was stuck in the fall of 1795.

The mint had to scramble to get copper for these coins. One of the sources was the Talbot, Allum and Lee Cents which were mentioned above. This one was over struck on a TAL Copper, and a lot of the undertype, including the date shows. This coin would never get a straight grade because of the rim nick, but it has made the rounds at a few big auctions bcause of the clear undertype.. Here are three photos. The last one is upside down so that you can see the undertype better.

Here is a Tablot, Allum and Lee Cent.

ffcoins · June 17, 2019 1:53PM

@BillJones
Thanks for sharing, all three of those are really cool (and that LE half cent is beautiful). I know it’s in a holder, but do you have any photos of the edge lettering? For some reason, that never gets included with the obv/rev photos.

I think I read also that they cut down some of the LC planchets to make the 1795 half cents (in December?), and may have kept making 95s until 1797.

I’m loving all this history.

BillJones · June 17, 2019 3:30PM

I can’t show the edge. It is the much more common variety.

lkenefic · June 17, 2019 4:43PM

Beautiful color on 18th copper! Thanks for sharing, Bill...

1795 Half Cent… thoughts?

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